We’re due for another big post on vulnerability and how it affects relationships and dating. Got an interesting email last week that I wanted to answer publicly. And, well, I kind of splurged on this one:
Hi Mark,
I attend a local men’s group where we discuss Robert Glover’s work on Nice Guy’s. A friend of mine recently recommended your book to me and I’m about halfway through it.
I am mostly enjoying your book Models, and I do not wish to prejudge, but I feel compelled to send you this email right away and get your honest feedback. I am 37 years old, single, and four years removed from my last relationship which lasted one and half years. I am not perfect, but I am confident that I am working to improve myself and I know I am blessed and have great things going for me.
I have learned the hard way that women, no matter what they may say, do not go for Nice Guys or gentlemen, but instead go for the scumbags and the assholes, etc. I have also learned the hard way that women do not process logic or think rationally in the same way that men do. The problem that I am having with your book so far is the issue of Vulnerability.
I am still trying to figure HOW to put this into practice. I am sorry but I don’t think you understand how cruel some women can be. Woman can very emotional and manipulative liars.
Women, subconsciously or not, do try to impose Shit Tests upon men — especially in this age of fucked up Feminism where the women are searching for ways to break a man’s balls. I think you are totally discounting or ignoring this in your book.
As for Vulnerability, my experience is that women perceive this as being soft, weak, a doormat, unmanly, a wuss, needy, etc. I can deal with rejection as much as it sucks. But in the course of meeting a girl and trying to keep it real, getting to know her and create attraction, I have problems with the Vulnerabilty part.
If being Vulnerable with a woman means that I have to expose myself to humiliation or disrespect or her games or shit tests, then I want no part of it.
I will finish reading your book and write more. I hope to read your response.
Merry Christmas, and thank you.
I get a lot of emails about Models and particularly about the concept of vulnerability. It’s the central concept of the book and the one many men struggle with the most. I wanted to reply to this email publicly because it runs the gamut of objections and confusion surrounding the subject.
I’ll take them one by one:
1. “I have learned the hard way that women, no matter what they may say, do not go for Nice Guys or gentlemen, but instead go for scumbags and assholes.”
Intentionally or not, you are equating “Nice Guys” with “gentlemen” here. The assumption is that any man who is polite is therefore a Nice Guy.
If you recall, in No More Mr. Nice Guy, Dr. Glover’s definition of a Nice Guy is a man who subverts his own will and desires to get people to like him. One of the points Glover makes is that behavior itself is not necessarily Nice Guy behavior or attractive behavior, but it’s the motivation behind it.
For instance, you can forgo all manners and be a complete dick, but if you’re doing it so that other people will like you, then you will also not attract anyone. Despite opposite behavior, you essentially achieve the same result as a Nice Guy.
In my own book, I make a very similar assertion: that neediness isn’t determined by what you actually say or do, but the intention behind what you say or do.
The reason some women (it’s important to emphasize here not all women, but some women) go for assholes and scumbags is that generally assholes and scumbags are not subverting their own will to make other people like them. Despite being assholes, they have strong boundaries and stand up for themselves.
The point is that the determining factor of what attracts women is not whether they’re polite or an asshole. That’s icing on the cake. It’s the motivations behind their actions that matters.
I’m generally a pretty nice guy. So are all of my friends. I attract a lot of women. As do most of the men I hang out with. It has nothing to do with how “nice” we are, it’s that we’re not editing ourselves to impress others or to alter people’s perceptions around us. We have strong boundaries. We have strong identities. And we happen to be friendly.
2. “I have also learned the hard way that women do not process logic or think rationally in the same way that men do.”
PEOPLE do not process logic or think rationally. Not women, humans. I mean, you’ve been behaving as a Nice Guy your entire life with little to nothing to show for it. That wasn’t exactly a rational decision, was it? You consistently chose to get involved with manipulative women. Why? That’s not very rational either.
Humans, both men and women, are slaves to their emotions and subconscious itches. Logic only comes into play when we want to justify what we already feel to ourselves and to others.
Don’t believe me? Here’s an example that may hit close to home:
A man could be well-educated, he could study medicine and psychology, he could understand that every statistical measurement, both physical and mental, every psychometric, every personality trait, can be distributed across a bell-curve in a large enough population. He could understand the power of cultural influences on personal belief systems and how neuro-plasticity molds our mental processes to match our environmental stimuli.
He could know and understand all of this, yet still believe that for some reason, all women are manipulative and irrational. Not some, ALL. Why?
Well, throughout his life, he’s made irrational decisions to date irrational and emotional women, women who have manipulated him and generally made his life a living hell. It was his decision to date them. But rather than admit that to himself (that would, after all, be rational), it’s easier to believe that EVERY woman, all 3.5 billion of them, is born with some sort of neurological or ethical deficiency that men (read: himself) doesn’t have — even though there is absolutely no scientific evidence for it and there’s an entire social movement fighting against irrational gender beliefs such as this.
Sound familiar?
3. “I am still trying to figure HOW to put this into practice. I am sorry but I don’t think you understand how cruel some women can be. Woman can very emotional and manipulative liars.”
Oh, really? You think I haven’t been manipulated or lied to by women before? Wish I could say I haven’t, but not true. The way I got here all began with a manipulative and lying woman.
(And by the way, ANYONE can be cruel, emotional, manipulative and a liar. In fact, we all are, depending on the time and circumstance. Get used to it.)
As for how to put it into practice, I will give you some examples at the end of this post. I’m not done yet.
4. “Women, subconsciously or not, do try to impose Shit Tests upon men — especially in this age of fucked up Feminism where the women are searching for ways to break a man’s balls. I think you are totally discounting or ignoring this in your book.”
Well, it depends what your definition of a shit test is. The classic definition of a shit test is when a woman challenges you to determine how congruent and confident you are in your identity. This is usually seen as a negative thing by men, which is strange since it indicates that she’s interested and/or intimidated by you.
But, in my opinion, women shit test fairly rarely. And here’s why…
What’s the difference between shit testing someone and simply doubting them? What’s the difference between a woman making fun of your job to see if you’ll defend yourself to her or her legitimately being unsure if that’s what you do for a living?
The answer: Her intentions. One is manipulative. One is simply being genuinely uncertain and wanting to know more about you. BOTH are done because she’s interested in you, but we’ll leave that alone for a second and focus on the manipulation.
How do you tell the difference between a woman who is being manipulative (shit testing) and a woman who is genuinely curious about you (interested)?
Well, you can’t. At least not 100% of the time. I wrote an article a long time ago called Shit Test Paranoia. The article was about how some men are so paranoid of having a woman manipulate them, that they ALWAYS assume the worst and distrust all women in this situation.
So the friendly way she jokes about your hair is suddenly MANIPULATION.
That honest question about whether you miss your ex sometimes is MANIPULATION.
That concern that you don’t speak to your mother enough is MANIPULATION.
This is a shitty way to live and a shitty way to date women.
Yes, everyone is manipulative some of the time, and some women are manipulative a lot of the time. But walking around freaking out that women are shit-testing you all the time is labeling them all guilty without a trial.
You are choosing to interpret everything women say to you as manipulative and emotional, and then go around complaining that all women are manipulative and emotional.
The issue here isn’t women. It’s you. You don’t trust them.
I want to encourage you to stop making assumptions about people, especially women, and start taking them by their actions point blank. You asked earlier what vulnerability looks like. Well one way to be vulnerable is to be open about your expectations and values. You commented that vulnerability is “soft” and “weak,” but on the contrary my friend, if it was so weak, then why is it so hard for you to do it?
Here’s my take on shit tests: Who cares? Shit tests only have power over you if you’re overly concerned about her opinion of you. If you’re truly confident in who you are, then you shouldn’t feel the need to prove it to her, especially some sassy broad you just met.
The point is: If shit tests bother you, it’s because you’re weak.
A strong confident man looks a shit test in the eye and laughs. She’s trying to fuck with him? Really? How cute. Let’s dump her and go find a confident woman who won’t try to fuck with my emotions. Ah, there, that’s better.
I’m going to wrap this up with a series of examples. As with many of the examples in the book, the four examples below are a matrix of behavioral traits. In the first two, the man demonstrates a lack of vulnerability, in the second two, the man demonstrates vulnerability. In each case, a manipulative woman and a non-manipulative woman are shown.
Example 1: Non-Vulnerable Man with Manipulative Woman
Him: So after school I actually hitchhiked my way down to San Diego. It was a little bit crazy and my parents hated it.
Her: Wow, you’re pretty irresponsible.
Him: I’m as irresponsible as they come. Why, does that intimidate you? *sly grin*
Her: *laughs* Intimidate me? I don’t think you could if you tried.
Him: Keep it up and we’ll find out soon enough.
This is the classic tease response to a shit test, as taught by most PUA methods. Notice that you’re basically entering into a verbal sparring match with her, manipulation against manipulation. Yes, this does work… on manipulative women. This lacks vulnerability because you’re masquerading your actual identity in order to out-wit her or to be “more dominant” or whatever the fuck the phrase is they use these days.
The other variation of the lack of vulnerability here is to go the Nice Guy route and agree with her in an apologetic way. For instance: “Yeah, but I’ve grown up since then. I’m very responsible now.” This works on, well, just about nobody. But when it does, it plays into manipulative women as well.
All in all, a shitty and unpleasant interaction. Even if you do get laid, you have to constantly sit there and battle with the woman long enough to trick both of you into thinking you’re attracted to one another.
Example 2: Non-Vulnerable Man with Non-Manipulative Woman
Him: So after school I actually hitchhiked my way down to San Diego. It was a little bit crazy and my parents hated it.
Her: Wow, that’s pretty extreme. What motivated you?
Him: Motivated me? Hah, what motivated it is I do whatever the fuck I want.
Her: No, but I mean, did something in particular inspire you to do that?
Him: I’m inspired all the time. You know, I used to play in a rock band. There was this one time, blah, blah, blah…
Notice in this example the woman is actually genuinely curious about the man’s life and his motivations. She questions it not out of manipulation but out of genuine curiosity. But a man could easily interpret this as her “testing” him or patronizing him in a sarcastic way.
In the example, the guy is so caught up in being a tough-guy asshole (read: insecure), he doesn’t give her a straight response, and instead comes off as very try-hard. I also threw in a little DHV transition there to emphasize the douchiness. This type of stuff will turn off non-manipulative women in two seconds flat. The Nice Guy variation of this would be to avoid the intimate questions and make some sort of self-deprecating statement, like “Haha, I don’t know, I was being stupid.” This would be harmless but would kill attraction and likely lead to the friend zone.
So what have we noticed? A lack of vulnerability turns off non-manipulative women and gives manipulative women more ammunition to come at us with drama. Non-manipulative women get tired of us and reject us. Manipulative women become energized and we have to spar our way into their pants.
So what about an honest, vulnerable approach?
Example 3: Vulnerable Man with Manipulative Woman
Him: So after school I actually hitchhiked my way down to San Diego. It was a little bit crazy and my parents hated it.
Her: Wow, you’re pretty irresponsible.
Him: Not really.
Her: Ditching your family to go and try to be some badass surfer guy. Give me a break. How self-centered can you be?
Him: That’s a pretty judgmental way to look at it.
Her: I just think it’s stupid and disrespectful.
Him: Well, it’s clear our values differ. It was nice meeting you.
Her: Wait, what?
Him: Goodnight.
Her: Are you serious? You’re leaving? NOW?!
Him: Yes.
Her: I’m sorry. Wait. Don’t go. I didn’t mean it like that.
Him: *Walks out*
This is an example of how vulnerability can embody strength. The power of vulnerability comes in setting strong boundaries. In this example, the woman is judgmental and probably exaggerating her objections in order to make the man feel insecure around her. He identifies her judgment for what it is and has the balls to come out and say it. He identifies that she’s not living up to his values or expectations, lets her know and then promptly dumps her on the spot. This is not easy to do.
The reason it’s so hard is because you’re disregarding another person’s perception in favor of your own. You’re exposing your values and your desires openly. And as a result, this woman is likely going to think you’re an over-sensitive asshole for the rest of her life. That’s vulnerability. That’s risking far more than standing there and arguing with her or teasing her back.
One horrible mindset that a lot of men get into is the idea that they have to “win” situations like this. There’s no winning here. Even if you out-wit a bitch to sleep with her, you’re still sleeping with a bitch. It’s a lose/lose situation.
The beauty about setting such strong boundaries is that you screen out manipulative women insanely quickly. Guys always think I’m crazy or lying when I say that I never get shit tested. But I don’t. I never date manipulative or bitchy girls. I consistently date really beautiful women with high values, high self esteem, and strong self awareness. How? Because I dump so many from the get-go for stupid stuff like this that I never have to worry about it again. I am ruthless when it comes to this. I’ll leave in the middle of a first date. I’ll walk away mid sentence. I don’t care. I don’t have time for girls who suck.
The irony here of course, is that manipulative woman can’t take this. In their mind, they just “lost” and so they’ll do anything to get you back. Sometimes they’ll step up their games, call you a dozen times, plead with you for another chance. But other times they’ll straighten up. Often women will apologize and then never fuck with you again. As soon as they know you’re willing to walk away at any moment, they will not mess with you.
Finally, I should note that I don’t hold these standards to look for a soulmate or anything. Even in casual sex situations, I maintain these standards. And the paradox is that meeting and dating women actually feels EASIER once you adopt this mindset. You would naturally think, “Oh, that means I have to meet twice as many women, I have to put in twice as much effort, since I’m rejecting half of the ones who like me.”
Actually, you end up putting in far LESS effort, because you’re no longer wasting so much time and energy trying to convince her that you’re a cool guy. You’re not longer exhausting yourself wondering whether she likes you enough or not, or worry about how to impress her or win her back. When she doesn’t live up to your standards, the situation is made extremely easy for you: you walk. No thought involved. No arguing. No super witty comebacks. Just: her behavior doesn’t meet my standards, I’m going to meet someone else now.
Example 4: Vulnerable Man with Non-Manipulative Woman
Him: So after school I actually hitchhiked my way down to San Diego. It was a little bit crazy and my parents hated it.
Her: Wow, that’s pretty extreme. Is there anything that motivated it?
Him: Well, part of it was just classic rebelliousness. But my family is pretty conservative. And I never felt like I completely fit in. Looking back, it was obvious that I needed to do something that made me feel independent, something that gave me my own identity.
Her: Yeah, that makes sense. I think everybody needs to do that to a certain extent, maybe not in such extreme situations.
Him: Definitely. I had a blast though. I mean, at the time, it felt like I was about to ruin my life or something, but now I look back and it’s just a cool thing I did one summer. *laughs*
Her: Haha, yeah, it’s funny how things that used to be a big deal when you were younger aren’t any more. *laughs*
Him: Yeah, like a first kiss or a first date. *laugh*
Her: Oh totally. I remember my first kiss. We planned it like a week in advance. My legs were shaking the whole time.
And here is an example of two emotionally mature, non-manipulative adults who are attracted to each other. I threw in the transition to a sexual subject to show how easily it can be done once you’re already on personal topics. This is kind of a tangent, but a lot of men who have trouble sexualizing their conversations are never talking about something that can create sexual tension.
A big reason for that is that their conversations are shallow. When you’re discussing the weather, the baseball scores, what you majored in in school and so on, it’s hard to jump to your favorite sexual position.
But if she’s talking about the time she went crazy and stole her brother’s car and you relate it to how one time you and your ex-girlfriend snuck into a hotel and had sex in an empty conference room… it gets very, very easy. Why? Because you’re being vulnerable. Getting involved sexually is an act of vulnerability, so if you’re both already being vulnerable up until that moment, it’s just a logical next-step.
But that may be a topic for another day. The point that I hope these examples drive home is that vulnerability is not weak. Vulnerability involves setting strong boundaries and then connecting with woman on a meaningful level.
Psychological research shows that people of similar self-esteem end up attracted to one another. Research also shows that men and women with similar beliefs about gender end up together.
What this means is you are who you attract. If you consistently end up with manipulative, mean women. Then there’s something about you that is manipulative and mean; you just don’t see it yet. Robert Glover brilliantly describes how Nice Guy Syndrome is actually extremely manipulative by being passive-aggressive. There’s a reason why Nice Guys always end up with narcissistic drama queens. They’re good matches. And one must admit that to themselves.
I walked around for years with the story that my ex-girlfriend totally screwed me over and fucked me up emotionally. Eventually I was able to admit that actually I had been a pretty shitty boyfriend, needy and passive-aggressive. And I wasn’t surprised that she left me. That change in narrative changed my relationships with women. I was no longer a victim, but suddenly 100% responsible for the relationship results I ended up with.
But back to the email:
Assholes may get laid, but the quality of the experience is rarely high because they’re doing it through duping women who are trying to dupe them.
Sex and relationships are best when they’re both consciously agreed upon. And to be conscious, they have to be manipulation free. Your overall problem here is easily fixed: set stronger boundaries. It’s clear you’ve been hurt in the past and are making angry generalizations about women. It’s also clear that you still have this sub-conscious need for these women to approve of you. And in short: these two things are scaring away the good ones and continuing to attract the bad ones.
For more info on this topic, check out these posts:
The Fake Alpha Males
The Pain Period
A Note on Vulnerability
Get your dating life handled. Become an attractive man once and for all, without faking it or pretending to be someone you’re not.
Models: Attract Women Through Honesty has been referred to as the best book in the field by many, and has received five-star reviews from all over the world.
Thank you for this, from (I think) a non-manipulative woman married to a very nice guy.
Did like this post a lot but you should have given more examples because these kind of posts are hard to understand for someone who’s mind has a lot of average dating advise dogma and believes, myself included (and i’ve been following the sit for a while now).
Offtopic: Next podcast, you should interview Chuck Palahniuk. He’s probably easy to contact and it would be very congruent with the site teachings. Even in marketeeing terms would attract lots of new readers, i guess. I personally would enjoy listening to him a lot. Please consider the idea
@Joao Antunes That would be a really neat podcast.
I really enjoyed reading this response, because I get frustrated when I hear people use sweeping generalizations about gender. This email touched on some of the more popular ones I hear about women (“women only like assholes” “women tend to be manipulative and cruel”). Men are certainly not immune to them either; unfortunately I also hear women complain that “men are all pigs” or “men don’t care about anything but sex.” *grimace* Here’s a crazy thought; maybe the reason why all/most of your interactions with the opposite sex have been poor is because of YOU. I think you did a nice job of illustrating that.
You’re a such a great writer! I think this post definitely applies to women
As a woman – I LOVE this post!
This entire article is so beta/feminazi you probably lie about ever having touched a woman.
DONDE ESTA ALMOG!?!?! No mas Facebook?
@ZacChamp I’m in Cali for the NY. Facebook has been a big timewaste. Shoot me an email if you really love me </challenge>
Great post Mark, I do enjoy reading about your views on male/female attraction, your insights resonate with me more than any other writers on the subject.
It is very interesting how so many men decide that because SOME women behave a certain way towards THEM, then ALL women must do the same to ALL men, but think that they think rationally. I guess people are more prepared to deflect the blame for a problem onto all of womenkind than to face up to the fact that they could be the problem…
Holy. Shit. I will have to reread this one a few times.
I have definitely been lacking in the boundaries department up until now. Also, I notice that the non-manipulative man looks at intent first, content second. I imagined being in the conversation with the manipulative woman and there’s a good chance that I would get defensive once she’d start attacking my character by saying: “Ditching your family to go and try to be some badass surfer guy. Give me a break. How self-centered can you be?”
I think I tend to look at what someone says, then try to understand the reasoning behind it, honestly consider whether that’s true or not, and respond with my opinion. But the intent behind that sentence is not an honest discussion of values and opinions, she’s straight up attacking my character while there’s no good reason for that, possibly to put me down or make me feel insecure. It’s awesome to just reply: “That’s a judgmental way to look at it”.
I have a lot to learn in this area. First step is to admit that I screwed up badly in the past. I hadn’t progressed as much as I thought. Not easy.
@Halo Effect I too liked that reply. I was trying to think of a good reply while reading the first bit of that dialogue. I had a tough time imagining a good response that didn’t involve some lashing out. I’ve actually lashed out on YouTube a couple of times when I get attacked like in the example. There have been glorious verbal beatdowns, but perhaps it’s not the best course of action. Perhaps it’s a reflection of my strength, hmm.
@Traindom @Halo The beautiful thing about that reply (not to toot my own horn here) is that it’s non-judgmental in return.
As far as addressing behavior through rational explanation rather than merely looking at intentions: this is common and something I did a lot in the past. My first relationship was dysfunctional and was a constant process of her creating drama and me constantly attempting to “fix” her problems in rational and reasonable ways.
For many, intellectualizing is a form of defense mechanism or way of hiding from our emotions. That’s certainly true in my family. But it’s also partly that we use what we’re good at. If you’re good at logic, then you will rely on that more. If you’re good at emotional reactions and charm, then you’ll rely on that.
I really enjoyed this post. Example 3 in particular, but in its entirety as well. Probably one of my top 5 of your work.
It dives into a subject that I don’t think most people associate with a confident, assertive man: vulnerability. You have shown that you can be both and still display a controlled vulnerability (perhaps a form of self discipline in a way).
Bravo, Mark.
Thanks Mark for another fantastic post! I especially love how you emphasize that vulnerability is about having good boundaries, not lacking them. A good point to add is that women who are manipulative often are that way because they lack the ability to be vulnerable (speaking from personal experience here!). In my “drama queen days” I had sparring matches like the example you gave, and it was only when I learned vulnerability that I could have the deeper connections, and attract truly alpha men (who would have nothing to do with the manipulative me). The lesson goes both ways.
@LizLeia Yeah. The longer I do this, the more I realize that the fundamental principles of attraction and relationships are more or less the same regardless of gender or sexual preference. I think there are some differences but, they’re mostly superficial, surface differences (men put more value on appearance, women put more value on success, etc.).
If I had known this was so universal when I started writing about it, I may not have limited myself to creating a men’s site.
@postmasculine Yes, I found the same thing! BTW, I used to write exclusively for men, now I write for both men and women (current blog is: http://www.artofflirting.com). You can always make the switch.
Spoken like a true poet. I hear the same argument from guys all the time, wah wah wah girls suck and only like assholes. Thanks for calling this attitude out, what girl would want a whiny guy who blames others for his inadequacy and pandering? Stop playing the victim and you will find your entire life richer.
These techniques are flawless when executed with true purpose. I’m sure many people take what you say and still half-ass the shitty relationship they’re in. I think many of the people who have the same attitude as the guy who e-mailed you will forever stay in that viscious circle either not settling down or “settling” for a submissive lifestyle to a woman(or man) who is manipulative but in the same situation.
Wow. Although I’ve learned most of this stuff in fragmented ways through many experiences with a lot of different women, this post ties it all together for me with an amazing degree of clarity. The “feel” of that last dialogue is something I am glad to say I’ve been experiencing often after a few years of bullshit like the first three dialogues, and you captured the tone of all four of them perfectly.
I am going to link to this from my blog (www.therulesrevisited.com). Even though I write for women, it is definitely a lesson for both sexes.
@therulesrevisited Yes, this goes both ways. Thanks for the link!
In all seriousness this was a great article. I can’t stand when guys try and tell me about “all women” and you can’t explain to them that that’s just the women THEY date because they invite this kind of stuff into their lives.
Well, now I recognize I was a co=dependent, passive/agressive, bung hole when I was married to my drama queen, victim mentallity, psycho bitch ex. We deserved each other. Now, after many years of work, I’ve become a stand up guy, complete in myself and confident I have what it takes. And I now attract healthy, intelligent, honest, interesting women into my life!!!
Maturity, what a wonderful thing!!
@smilin brad Congrats. Realizing and admitting that is no easy thing!
Hey Mark, I loved the idea that “neediness isn’t determined by what you actually say or do, but the intention behind what you say or do.” I have never seen the neediness issue put in such clear and simple way.
Now, when it comes to manipulation, women are notorious for manipulating men. Being the “weaker sex” in a male driven society, women find themselves obligated to use other ways of achieving their goals other than their authority and physical strength.
Therefore, when it comes to relationships, women have developed a “sixth sense” of recognizing men’s needs and intentions and then using men’s intentions towards achieving their personal objectives. Sometimes these objective are financial, other times are personal and other times are just ego driven and attention seeking objectives.
In this case the best solution is to:
1. Set boundaries. When and how? a) At the beginning of a relationship. (trough a game “sweetie let’s write down 10 things we don’t accept in a relationship.” b) When we recognize manipulation. We gotta stop right then and there and let her know that we don’t accept what she’s doing.
2. Encourage sincerity. Thus letting her know that you want her to be sincere and direct when she wants something, doesn’t like something etc. And try to not hide behind her finger, because in the you’ll recognize manipulation and it will harm your relationship more.
Cheers and keep up the good work, Mark!
@Besski_Livius
“Now, when it comes to manipulation, women are notorious for manipulating men. Being the “weaker sex” in a male driven society, women find themselves obligated to use other ways of achieving their goals other than their authority and physical strength.”
Dude, reread the article. You missed one of the most important parts of it.
@timfraser123 @Besski_Livius
Think about reality… There’s no need to pass a value judgement on it, but many women are inclined to manipulate men for their own ends in a way specific to sexual interactions. Anyone who’s ever had a girl stop talking to him in spite of her attraction, just because you wouldn’t buy her a drink, knows that.
@J_M_1 @timfraser123 @Besski_Livius Yes, avoid those women and do not chase them when they pull that kind of stuff. What is the problem here?
@J_M_1 @Besski_Livius Reread the article AGAIN then! Seriously, I have not once had a woman stop talking to me because I wouldn’t buy her a drink. Maybe it’s because I have the boundary that I wouldn’t want to talk to any women who would pull that move but more likely it’s just that there aren’t that many women who would do that. Incidentally where do you meet these women?
@timfraser123 @Besski_Livius
Dude relax I jet after… and I’m pretty sure I even agree with what you’re trying to say: don’t date girls who aren’t in to you for you. I’m assuming you’re up in arms about the shit test thing, but you’re approaching it from a really esoteric place of “I screen those women out super early and if you do too it becomes a nonissue.” Nobody’s perfect. You can’t be uncompromising. And sometimes its best to know how to deal with that shit in a way that makes everyone happy as opposed to dumping a girl, even though you do it by making a tactical/gamey move.
@J_M_1 @timfraser123 @Besski_Livius I think a direct honest conversation about the behavior that you don’t appreciate will take care of that. Be strait up and see if they can be strait up. Understand at first they may not react the way you want, give them a little time. If the problem persists, then it’s probably dumping time.
@J_M_1 @Besski_Livius I’m just pointing out that it seems like you’re singling out women as doing this more often or more consciously than men, when I doubt that’s the case.
@J_M_1 @timfraser123 @Besski_Livius Some women use and manipulate some men. Some men use and manipulate some women.
Why not just say “people”?
@timfraser123 @Besski_Livius I see your point Tim, you’re probably refering to:
“Yes, everyone is manipulative some of the time, and some women are manipulative a lot of the time. But walking around freaking out that women are shit-testing you all the time is labeling them all guilty without a trial.”
Well, that’s a valid idea. We should not be paranoid about women manipulating us, but neither as naive to think that most women are innocent and don’t manipulate men. Because they DO, and do it a lot! (consciously and unconsciously)
My message is to be realistic and deal with manipulation before and when it happens in a mature manner and not walk around with the naive attitude that some women are completely “manipulation free” :) Because they manipulated, are manipulating and will keep doing it, and there’s nothing wrong with it as long we handle it right.
@Besski_Livius @timfraser123 Are you aware that Mark is saying in the article that he walks away from manipulative women and therefore only dates women who are not manipulative?
@Halo Effect @Besski_Livius @timfraser123
It’s not black and white. You can weed out people who are manipulative to a fault but it’s a trait that’s present to some degree in every single personality in the world. When it comes down to it, and you need to handle an instance of manipulation, sometimes it’s better to communicate strategically than to cave or call a woman out for being manipulative.
@J_M_1 @Halo Effect @Besski_Livius @timfraser123 Example please?
@ZacChamp @Halo Effect @Besski_Livius @timfraser123
Let’s not get sucked in to hypothetical land. The “sparring match” thing from the first example in the article shouldn’t be your dominant method of communication, but it’s a tool that’s fun as hell when you use it right. Are you any fun to flirt with? It’s context dependent – you don’t need to be a vulnerability fundamentalist. With respect to more serious stuff that occurs in relationships, I agree that you should set the tone as super honest.
@J_M_1 @Halo Effect @Besski_Livius @timfraser123 I agree that banter and teasing is fun but I think again it all comes down to intent.
@ZacChamp
Will you clarify? Through this comment chain and another read of the article Ive gotten the impression that you and mark have a blase attitude about what I regard as flirting.
@J_M_1 If you are using your flirting to avoid honest dialogue, it goes beyond flirting. If you are using flirting as phycological warfare, it goes beyond flirting.
@Besski_Livius I agree with your solutions Besski, but psychological research has found that women’s “sixth sense” is a myth. That in controlled experiments, men score just as highly as women do on intuition, reading body language, etc. The belief these days is that this supposed “discrepancy” between men and women in dealing with social/emotional issues is socially imposed.
Mark, I’m wondering how you reconcile your model with situations that set you up for low fidelity interactions with women. I’ve been reading since the practical pickup days, and I think with respect to casual sex, you’ve talked about “falling in love in a night” and that sort of thing – I’m in college and although I have no problem pulling great girls, they’re just hookups, and that’s what we both want. And I’m sure you know that, as someone who’s been through the pickup meat grinder, playing it slow/vulnerable is a great way be searching for the few girls in the club who even have the mental capacity to connect with someone the way you suggest, while someone who’s just spitting tight game is pulling or getting blown in a dark corner. Basically, is there a way to have your cake and eat it too? To find girls you really click with that same night in the bar, while still being able to take home great girls for a night? Which is still a lot of fun even if y’all aren’t soulmates… I’ve had my hookups, and *then* been in a position where it’s appropriate to just be real and non-needy in the way you espouse, but unfortunately it’s easy to hurt people in that situation if you aren’t both in to it.
@J_M_1 I actually found that the more I focused on this stuff, the easier and faster my casual sex lays got. And the higher quality as well.
Again, vulnerability and connection doesn’t necessarily mean you’re sitting there sharing your life stories. It’s about intentions, remember? It’s about trust. If you find a great girl who shares your values and completely trusts you within a few hours, why wouldn’t you be able to have mindblowing sex with her in the same night and then maintain a quality connection for years after?
Thanks for pointing out that not all of us are manipulative and evil. I especially liked the part where you said we can call be cruel. I don’t think anyone is this 100% nice person. As much as we have all been manipulated once – or more – we probably have also been the guilty part in the manipulating game once or twice in our lives. However, I feel that when you are truly interested, no manipulation is required, and a relationship just happens. It might not be all easy breezy, but when two people are being honest with each other, whether still dating or in a full relationship, drama is almost non existent. But for this situation to happen, timing has to be right, and I feel like timing is usually our biggest problem in guy/girl interaction. Two people can both be nice, but if one is hurting from a previous dishonest relationship, it tends to shit test the other, and then things get out of control from there. What do you think?
I agree that emotional vulnerability can be very powerful. But I think there is a fine line between making oneself emotionally vulnerable (a display of strength), and simply talking about your desires rather than acting on them (a sign of weakness). Like you say it is about intention, but if a guy is insecure inside and talks about his feelings too much, his neediness will come out, whereas if he forces himself to act on his desire even though he is probably terrified to do so, therein lies true power and dominance. Not to say that talking about your feelings is inherently weak, but if you don’t have a perfect belief system (as none of us do in reality, but some of us are farther along than others), I think it is better for a guy to simply act on his desires rather than sitting around talking about them. What do you think about that, Mark?
I refuted myself tonight. I wanted to go talk to a girl who gave me a glance, but she some other guy was talking to her, and out of fear I didn’t. Felt pretty bad about it. Guess its not so cut and dry as acting on your feelings. Fear can be a powerful inhibitor of your desires, so the trick is to overcome them incrementally as you have pointed out before.
@ikremsky The more you introspect about it, the more you’ll see how much fear dominates your daily life. I once carried around a pitch counter in my pocket for a week and clicked it every time I found myself acting out of fear. Not just in dating, but in everyday life. A simple example: breaking eye contact with a homeless guy. There were a *lot* of clicks.
The good thing about this exercise is it taught me to notice my emotions and dig into where they came from. Over time I’ve gotten much, much better at noticing my emotions in general. This in turn makes it easier for me to process negative emotions and release the negativity quickly. Something that in the past might have ruined my day now passes within an hour, and oftentimes in just a few minutes.
@derekscruggs @ikremsky That’s an awesome exercise Derek.
@postmasculine @derekscruggs One of my problems is actually that I am hyper-aware of when I am being overcome by fear, and it creates a negative spiral. In the example above, after I didn’t approach the girl, I started feeling like shit, and it just became harder and harder to talk to other people after that, to the point where I just had to leave. Its like on some core level I feel sort of deficient for being so afraid, and then when I try overcoming that fear and fail, it pulls me into a downward spiral of feeling worse and worse. Its also tied to shame of not “having” hot girls around me all the time. When I get into those spirals, it can be tough to get out, and can sometimes take weeks. I’m currently in one; I think it got started because my Christmas holiday was quite lonely. I’m in Europe and away from family in the U.S., and most of the girls I’ve been dating and people I see regularly are with their families over the holidays. So I got put into this depressive funk, such that all my fears and failures with women have gotten amplified.
@postmasculine @derekscruggs Ironically though, that same night I had a girl who was obviously attracted to me give me her number without me asking. The problem was, I wasn’t attracted to her at all. Ha, so that actually made me feel worse. I can attract unattractive girls but not the ones I actually want. Its amazing, even opening myself up like this on the internet completely anonymously is somewhat uncomfortable.
The chances of you encountering the non-manipulative women in your example depends on where you met her, which age group she is in, etc.
What I am implying is that manipulative-ness is not a permanent trait of a person. But rather, an ego state that people adopt depending on their surroundings and what stage of life they happen to be in.
To put it in context. The dominant culture in the United States is such that women, when they are at their prime, are encouraged to maximize the utility (resources and experience) they can gain through their ability to attract men. This is somewhat true for every women in every culture. But in a post-capitalist, post-feminist society, it takes on a special flavor: The showering of validation through social medias creates illusions of grandeur, the ensuing ADD, not to mention all the mind-altering drugs people habitually ingest from childhood; indoctrination from popular culture aimed at increasing consumption while encouraging unnecessary disposal/wastes (newer is always better, iPhone = men); unrealistically high entitlements brought to you by Disney (there is the “perfect someone”, it should “just happen”), sitcoms (Sex and the City- in real life, Mr. Big would never even look at someone as Carrie), reality shows, and dating magazines (Cosmo title: “Don’t Lie – How to Date Multiple Guys”); the porno-ization, caricturizing of everything that has to do with human intimacy- because it is harder to take personal responsibilities than to make fun of it preemptively (think Hipsters). It is not surprising that a PUA friend of mine once said: “American women are not interested in a good man (not “nice guy”. A good character is what he meant). They are looking for a stand up comedian who vaguely resembles some stock character they recently saw in a romantic sitcom… then the next one… They will ride the cock carousel until it is no longer possible, and become single mothers or cat ladies, whichever happens first”. Have a good look around this country, it is already happening.
The generalization is not always accurate, harsh at its worst. But this has nothing to do with the XX chromosome (so it affects men too). It has to do with upbringing and exposure to culture. I am talking about your chances of running into manipulative people (men and women), not whether being vulnerable is good or not (it is good). On the whole (for men), your chances in running into women in their prime in a non-manipulative ego state in America are slimmer than many other cultures. It takes a lot of effort to set up the right conditions, or just going through a lot of women (or men), to even start having a vulnerable interaction. Game, bottom line, is just a reaction to all that. You don’t need game (or, very minimally) with people whose heads are not fucked up by bad culture.
Aside, a whole host of culturally independent factors come into play whether the same woman acts manipulatively or non-manipulatively: What does she look like? How old is she? Is she single? Divorced? Does she have children? Under what circumstances did you meet her? Has she always gotten away and benefited from being manipulative? What’s her available resource compared to yours? How long has it been since she last had sex? And so on. Your chances of encountering women who behave non-manipulatively often have nothing to do with whether you are vulnerable or not. As a man, you just have to understand that a lot of this has absolutely nothing to do with you. I am not saying we are withered leafs being washed around by tidal waves of fate, completely helpless. I am saying there is a power dimension where our sexual market values are the bargaining chips, and men and women cash-out those chips in very different ways depending on the cultural environment they thrive. Being vulnerable is a good thing. An understanding of the realities that dictates behavior will help put you in situations where people are more receptive, where being vulnerable actually pays off. So pick your fights (or whenever- instead of whoever- you want to demonstrate your values and vulnerability) carefully.
This is an excellent article. It’s a classic hasty generalization/reverse accident logical fallacy. “I’m a ‘nice guy’. Women don’t want me. Therefore, women must all want asshole biker guys.” I would add, also, that the female version of this logical fallacy works in a similar way. Some (though I would like to stress, not all, and not even a majority) of my female friends do have a pathological tendency to date emotionally unavailable men. When I talk to them about this, their responses are revealing. “Oh, all men are either emotionally distant, or nice guy doormats, and I am not attracted to doormats.” Same kind of thinking, just applied to a different gender. You are right – we think in this way as a defense mechanism so we can tell ourselves it can’t possibly be the result of our own choices that we’re in the predicament we are in. If “all women like assholes” then it’s not my fault that I’m a nice guy and women don’t like me, it’s their fault. If “all men are either doormats or jerks” then I don’t have to take responsibility for my own dating decisions and happiness. Denial is a powerful thing.
Where are these non-manipulative women who want a Vulnerable man?
@thegman7 I don’t want to sound mean to Mark- but he is a good looking man, runs his own business, and quite a suave womanizer. These attributes tend to motivate women to be receptive to his vulnerability and be non-manipulative. Having an upper-hand on the sexual market aside, I am certain he also knows where to meet numerous quality women, how to approach them, and how to disarm their natural defenses by setting up more innocent situations where it does not look so much as an approach, but chance encounter. Thus, less manipulative and more reception to vulnerability women he finds. Put it in Game terms- he spends little time in attraction because it’s easy for him, and moves straight onto comfort (vulnerability). Mark has done all of his homework, so from that position it is easy to talk about setting boundaries and being vulnerable. The majority of men cannot afford to live off the principle of abundance, because they don’t have as many options. This is not to say he is wrong- While it’s good to be vulnerable, you still need to work on a lot of things. Is what I am saying.
For the record, I am not singling him out. I do the same thing. I don’t waste time on manipulative women cause I know where to find receptive ones. You can afford being vulnerable if you do your homework.
@Charles Y @thegman7 I get what you’re saying, but I think you’re missing an important piece. Mark has written about how he used to suck at dressing and didn’t work out a lot. He didn’t always have a successful business, and he freely admits he wasn’t always great with women (hence his time as a PUA). He worked on improving himself in these aspects of his life, including vulnerability.
Now here’s the important part: what is his intention behind constantly work on making himself more attractive, successful, and vulnerable? Is it to impress women? Or is it because he’s motivated to be a better person for his own sake?
I don’t think Mark promotes vulnerability as a solution to men’s problems with women; I think he promotes it because it’s a healthy way to live. Attracting more/better women is a side effect rather than the intention.
@Liz Lemon@thegman7
I totally agree. In fact, my own success in life and the things I have are all just side effects of my character. I’m not motivated to do what I do or did because I wanted to get laid (not at least, since I was 25). I recall when I used to sarge, I wasn’t doing it as much as I am attracted to the person I was with, or for the validation I got from other men. I was much more interested in social dynamics and the intricacies of human beings.
To give you an example- a month ago I was ran over by a car on my motorcycle. I had a brand new Ducati- 20k worth bike- for exactly 9 days. Turned into scrap in 5 seconds. But I didn’t cry, didn’t blame anybody, I got on my feet, chased the perpetrator down (who happens to be a wanted drug dealer) with a broken clavicle, then called the police. I had surgery and have (almost) fully recovered and back to my workout regime. The whole time I was on top of my shit- insurance, lawyer, 20 different institutions, didn’t miss work, joked, kept up with friends, not to mention the pain, even got a new bike. I learnt two thing: Material things are transient; and disasters make relationships transparent. I say to myself: What if it’s all a gift? It was a litmus test of character, and I was happy about how I reacted to life. Living well, with a drive, is its own intrinsic reward.
So there’s nothing in my posts aimed at contradicting how important it is to be a better man. I was merely pointing out that there is certain correlation between how receptive a woman is, and how accomplished you are.
@Liz Lemon @Charles Y @thegman7
“ I think he promotes it because it’s a healthy way to live. Attracting more/better women is a side effect rather than the intention. ”
This is the exact sentiment I felt reading through his books Models. Well Said
@Charles Y @thegman7 The vast majority of Models is about how vulnerability and opening up yourself to your emotional needs leads to creating an amazing lifestyle for yourself. The lifestyle sections of the book get by far the most attention, including fashion, fitness and taking care of yourself so that you look good. So yeah, maybe I am lucky that I get to “skip” the attraction stuff… but I get to skip it BECAUSE of the vulnerability, because I set strong boundaries, because I invested in myself so much, because I genuinely care about the interactions.
As for approaching, the women I approach have no doubt why I’m approaching. I hide nothing.
@postmasculine Ha, baller. Probably explains why I often end up with non-single women.I read your book. While the lifestyle stuff isn’t new, I admire your honest interpretation of the symptoms of modern, Western men, including the PU community; the definitions for neediness and identity; and how they affect our interactions with women. A Man has to stop objectifying himself so that he can treat others like human beings.
@Charles Y ”A Man has to stop objectifying himself so that he can treat others like human beings.”
Amen to that.
@thegman7 They’re everywhere. The thing this discussion is leaving out (which Mark discusses elsewhere and in Models) is the importance of purpose and/or passion (pick your preferred term). Women want a man with some direction in his life, something that motivates him to get off the couch and do something meaningful. It doesn’t have to be something huge like “prevent mass famine,” just something more than getting laid and which you are truly fixated upon.
It doesn’t even have to make a lot of money — many (most?) women will choose a starving artist over a brash i-banker.
So if you have purpose, take care of yourself physically and are willing to be vulnerable (which as Mark says includes taking a risk and actually talking to a girl), you’ll find quality women everywhere.
This posts rings mightily of someone reading Brene Brown, not that I consider that a bad thing. Of course, Mark has a different style than she does. For those wanting Brene Brown directly:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCvmsMzlF7ohttp://www.amazon.com/Daring-Greatly-Vulnerable-Transforms-ebook/dp/B007P7HRS4/ref=tmm_kin_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1356827774&sr=1-1
@crossFit_Al : wow. there are no conincidences. Last Sunday a friend referred me to Brene Brown video. i still have fear and I struggle with Vulnerability.
Every time I see a woman describe herself as “strong and independent…”
I thought to myself: Great! You deserve a “nice guy”!
and vice versa.
Yo Mystery,
New Year’s eve is approaching… and I happen to be a Nice Guy. The very kind of Nice Guy that you have described up there. And at the moment, I’m about to go through aradical and much more healthier transition…. so I just wanted to say: Thank You.
<i>«The reason it’s so hard is because you’re disregarding another person’s perception in favor of your own. You’re exposing your values and your desires openly. And as a result, this woman is likely going to think you’re an over-sensitive asshole for the rest of her life. That’s vulnerability.»</i>
THIS.
I spent most of my waking day thinking of clever verbal jabs I could through back at the b1tch that threw her drink at me and tried to punch, kick and hit me in the groin. She was too short for that, lol. After she found out that I had also insulted her friend during round 1, she came back for another session. I so wish that instead of collecting my mobile parts from the floor I could settle it with something really smart. As if she were to go home and say “that SOB got my cider and I almost hit his balls, but that final comment on my bulkiness really got me”
I wish I had used some of the time to analyse my contribution to the event (getting way too drunk, saying something anal,…) and regretting having insulted a girl whose only flaw was befriending that idiot. Yet, I could not stop me from going over and over through this, re-writing it in my head, always with me getting the upper hand. Had I gotten it I wouldn’t think much of last night other than this crazy biatch and me getting drunk really fast…
Why do we need to feel that we come out ahead and beat the others that dare to cross our path to their misery?
Damn Mark you really skewered the guy but I guess it’s just your form of tough love haha. I agree with pretty much everything in your post but I think the main problem is that vulnerability only “works” if you’re relatively well adjusted and confident which the vast majority of guys seeking dating/pickup advice most definitely are not. What is your advice for these guys? Years of therapy to sort out your issues before being able to be attractively vulnerable enough to easily meet quality women doesn’t sound very feasible. Going out there and spewing your deep seeded hurt, neediness, and thirst for validation doesn’t sound constructive either.
I think the main reason so many people (including myself) struggle with your concept of vulnerability is because there is a lot of hurt and anger inside that if you’re truly being vulnerable these emotions are bound to flood out. You talk about the Pain Period where things like that might happen but is it really constructive? The inevitable negative reactions you will get when expressing these emotions can’t possibly be good for someone who’s just beginning to try and get out of their shell and be their “real self” (warts and all) instead of applying regular PU tactics that have given them “success” in the past. The natural reaction from a guy would be, “See I tried expressing my true identity and it’s really turning women off and making me feel like shit because my true identity is incredibly unattractive to most women.”
@briank What you say in the last paragraph is what I was trying to say in my first comment below. There seems to be a major conundrum that, to be perfectly honest, is making me pretty damn depressed right now (or rather contributing to it). That conundrum is that in order to be attractive to women, you must be non-needy. And in order to be non-needy, you must make yourself vulnerable. So if you are needy and make yourself vulnerable, you will be a little more attractive than before but still not very attractive. At the best you will get put in the friend zone. This has happened to me several times in the past when I made myself truly open and vulnerable to women. The upside is that they still want you around, and so can help contribute to your lifestyle, introduce you to new girls, etc. But the downside is that they don’t want to open their legs for you, and that is pretty damaging to the ego in and of itself.
The only way to actually be sexually attractive to women is to actually be non-needy. Making yourself vulnerable makes you less needy than you would be otherwise, but its not going to eliminate your neediness altogether. if you are needy and openly share that with a girl, she will trust you but not be turned on by you. Since its not as easy as flipping a light switch to turning off your neediness, I think the mainstream alternative, faking nonneediness long enough to get laid or into a relationship, is the better one. Or at least, being selectively open with yourself. Why bring out the dirty laundry before you’ve slept with her?
Of course you should work on your life and make steps to becoming less needy. But that is a lifelong process. Faking nonneediness is a pretty good bandaid though, and actually provides a framework to learn how to be nonneedy. Fake it til you make it.
@ikremsky @briank Read this: http://postmasculine.com/the-pain-period
Conundrum solved.
@postmasculine @ikremsky @briank
Vulnerability is great, but it feels very wrong to use other people for my own catharsis. The urge to share emotional pain with other humans is a leftover relic from evolution. “The Selfish Gene”, “Virus of the MInd”, and “Ideavirus” are 3 great books that explain this concept.
If you approach pickup from the frame of ACTUALLY being independently happy, then concepts like the “pain period” or “walking the tough road” aren’t useful. If you believe you need a pain period with other people, then you do. Clarisse sort of addressed this idea in your third podcast.
What she said (I’m paraphrasing) is that a lot of guys who discover pickup really could care less about pickup, they’re just looking for emotional carthasis. From that paradigm, Vulnerability is a form of relationship building that has a higher probability of producing healthy, long-term relationships than other pickup methods.
Better alternatives: prayer, meditation, diet, exercise, writing and journaling, travel, being in nature – activities that involve opening yourself to emotional pain without depending on other people.
@dannyfries @postmasculine @ikremsky @briank Yes and no. I agree that there are other activities one can and should pursue, but for a lot of guys (and women for that matter) there is a deep insecurity around wanting other people to like them, and being scared of showing the “real me.” I believe the only way one can learn to deal with that insecurity is by interacting with others.
@dannyfries @postmasculine @briank I think the need to share emotional pain, or more generally, ae are still way more successful as a species whenever we bond together and share emotions then when we are in isolation. The forces of natural selection today are much different from those we evolved in for millions of years, but nontheless we are still subject to the forces of natural selection. They just act much more slowly. You may feel perfectly secure working from your computer and earning enough money to feed yourself and 10 others, but what’s going to happen when disaster strikes?
Well if you are capable of bonding emotionally with others, relating to their fears, doubts, etc., and sharing yours, you are much more likely to motivate others to band together toward a common goal, and in the end, are much more likely to survive.
Those forces of natural selection are still there; they just aren’t as apparent. They just take longer to manifest.
Your beliefs do indeed create your reality, but the problem is that humanity has yet to come to an efficient and reliable method to change one’s beliefs. It is a slow process, and will necessarily cause pain, because if you are trying to change some aspect of yourself, that implies that you have some belief that puts you out of alignment of the true nature of reality, and therefore are going to automatically behave in ways that cause you to suffer.
There were a few extremely intelligent and enlightened people throughout history, like Jesus, Buddha, etc., who themselves seem to have figured it out, but still were only partially successful in creating a reliable and pain-free method to achieve a perfect system of beliefs and therefore true and limitless power.
That being said, I do meditate on a regular basis, and pray whenever I am inspired to do so, and also eat healthy and exercise. But I still feel a lot of pain, perhaps more than I would have otherwise, because i am willing to take hard look at it, to feel it, and to therefore allow it to heal.
@dannyfries @ikremsky @briank Again, it comes back to intentions. If you’re LOOKING for emotional catharsis, then this is another form of neediness. I addressed this in another post: being vulnerable isn’t about going around spewing your guts to everyone who will listen. It’s about congruence. It’s about openness. It’s about being unguarded.
In fact, the primary examples I give in my book about practicing vulnerability involve taking care of oneself, attending therapy, meditation, finding hobbies and things that make you happy.
Vulnerability is an act of living congruent to oneself and one’s own emotions and needs. Being open and sharing with people is a facet of this but not the whole thing.
@dannyfries@postmasculine@briank
I think the need to share emotional pain, or more generally, to share emotions with others, is more than just a relic of the past. We are still more successful as a species whenever we bond together and share emotions then when we are in isolation. The forces of natural selection today are much different from those we evolved in for millions of years, but nonetheless we are still subject to the forces of natural selection. They just act much more slowly, so slowly in fact that scientists have been unable to detect it. But it is still there.
You may feel perfectly secure working from your computer and earning enough money to feed yourself and 10 others, but what’s going to happen when disaster strikes?
If you are capable of bonding emotionally with others, relating to their fears, doubts, etc., and sharing yours, you are much more likely to motivate others to band together toward a common and coherent goal (in a disaster, that is survival), and in the end, are much more likely to survive.
Those forces of natural selection are still there; they just aren’t as apparent. They just take longer to manifest.
Your beliefs do indeed create your reality, but the problem is that humanity has yet to come to an efficient and reliable method to change one’s beliefs. It is a slow process, and will necessarily cause pain, because if you are trying to change some aspect of yourself, that implies that you have some belief that puts you out of alignment of the true nature of reality, and therefore are going to automatically behave in ways that cause you to suffer.
There were a few extremely intelligent and enlightened people throughout history, like Jesus, Buddha, etc., who themselves seem to have figured out how to trahscend pain, but still were only partially successful in creating a reliable and pain-free method to achieve a perfect system of beliefs and therefore true and limitless power.
That being said, I do meditate on a regular basis, and pray whenever I am inspired to do so, and also eat healthy and exercise. But I still feel a lot of pain, perhaps more than I would have otherwise, because i am willing to take hard look at it, to feel it, and to therefore allow it to heal.
@postmasculine @dannyfries @briank It still seems somewhat paradoxical. It seems to me that the act of trying to open yourself up and be non-needy is actually in itself needy. You have a neediness for being non-needy So when you do or say something with the intent to make yourself less needy, you are actually making yourself more needy. Then again, neediness isn’t necessarily a bad thing. It motivates you to make positive change. I guess that’s where the pain period comes in. You have to actually allow yourself to be needy before you can figure out how to get your true needs met and therefor become non-needy.
@briank Vulnerability is HOW one becomes confident and well-adjusted. This is probably the most common objection I get from guys. It’s come up a few times in the comments already. They say, “Well, vulnerability is great, but you already need to be attractive/confident/interesting/well-adjusted/etc.”
The whole point of my book is that vulnerability IS THE PROCESS IN WHICH ONE BECOMES THESE THINGS.
Not an interesting person? Practice vulnerability. Not socially calibrated? Practice vulnerability… keep openly expressing your emotions and gauging the responses and motivations behind them and you will eventually get there. It may be an ugly and unpleasant process, but you will.
@postmasculine @briank The Pain Process – you came through this difficult period a much better person but don’t you think this is somewhat unique to your experience rather than universal? In the Pain Period article, you detailed your experiences with two girls, one Melina where your emotional outburst freaked her out and effectively ended the relationship. The second Kate where you confessed your sexual hangups and anxiety and she was understanding and even helped you work through it. I’m sure there are countless other examples some positive and some negative sprinkled throughout your experiences. I’m guessing that building on these positive experiences is the key to self acceptance correct? Once you see that people accept and even embrace your rough edges, it lets you accept them as not so horrifying and embarrasing after all – just a part of who you are. The problem is, what if the experiences and feedback you’re getting are mostly all negative and hurtful? What if there is almost no positive momentum to build off of and just a series of emotional punches to the face?
@briank Try it and find out.
I think it’s very unlikely that my experience with vulnerability and self esteem and attraction is unique. Keep in mind that I worked personally with hundreds of men with similar problems as these from 2007 to 2011 and have been in contact with literally thousands of men and their women problems through this blog. My experience coaching was that vulnerability sped up the process considerably for most people. It’s also based on a fair amount of psychological research. So it’s not like I just pulled this concept out of my ass.
@briank @postmasculine I think you raise a good point, Brian.
I’ve experienced something similar to what you described: some girls were understanding and helped me accept some parts of myself (although preceding that there was already a lot of work done by myself in the self-acceptance department. And years of general self-improvement as well. But the girls definitely helped). I can imagine that when you get only negative feedback, it is very hard to get a positive outlook on things.
But in my experience, most of the girls I’ve dated were incredibly understanding and accepting. Perhaps this is due to the fact that I am non-judgmental and that I tend to vibe better with people who are the same? But awesome girls are out there. Tons of them.
Are you speaking out of your own experience when you say that you don’t get any positive feedback and only get hurt? Maybe you should make a post on the forum.
@postmasculine @briank haa touche. Actually, I have been trying and getting horrible results. I’ll try to stick it out despite the consistently negative responses, it has to get better eventually right? It’s just been hard not to revert back to the PU stuff which actually gets decent results from time to time.
@postmasculine@briank
I think you failed to distinguish between “vulnerability” to oneself, and “vulnerability” to others (including women)- in this above post. You may have distinguished it in Models, I could be wrong, but I don’t remember.
Ultimately, it’s just semantics. But it helps clear things up. Because for most men, “vulnerability” means exclusively the latter- unlike you and I- most American men (and women), are Solipsists.
Vulnerability to the self is to be honest about your needs- what hurts the most and makes you the meanest speaks the loudest! About who you are. Your identity ultimately lies in what drives you. If you are not in touch with your vulnerabilities, you don’t know who you want to be. You become nothing if you are not vulnerable (to yourself).
For me, vulnerability to self is a completely introspective process. E.g. I keep journals. When I was younger, I wrote everyday. Now I am a busy body, I write once a week. I write about how I feel about the people and the strange encounters I constantly get myself into, and I analyze why I did what I did, I try to justify myself, but sometimes I fail, then I search, how I can behave differently to get what I want, to be who I want to be. The next day I put them into action, and I let this world be the judge. I don’t let myself get distracted in this process, no chatter, no “day game”. This experience is more important to me than getting laid.
Other people may have other methods- pray, meditation, or talking through things with friends (which is what women do).
My own method contributes significantly to my character. I can be very open about profound, emotional experiences with people I feel a certain connection with- as if they are my diary. And I almost always am well received. This is vulnerability to others.
So I believe what you are saying is that vulnerability to the self will facilitate vulnerability to others. I am consistent and stand by my previous comments.
Wow, fascinating stuff, including all the comments. As a mom of two boys (currently tweens), it’s important to me that they’re happy, well-adjusted, and true to themselves. This is so much food for thought in terms of the men I’m trying to raise as well as the example I’m setting for them as a woman. Thanks Mark!
I seriously can’t believe how many people are complaining about getting “friend-zoned” or how women never go for “nice guys.” If being “nice” and not a rape-y douchebag are all you have to offer, you are not someone I want inside of me. And the friend-zone implies that all you want out of women is not friendship, that no matter who you encounter they are in some way or another a sexual object and not a human being worthy of conscious attention. It’s pretty disturbing to see, honestly.
@wanderingkatherine I agree with you on the first point.
But friend-zone does not imply that all you want out of women is not friendship and that all women are sexual objects. Imagine that every single time you meet a man you are attracted to, who you want to date or more, every time you show interest in a guy you have feelings for, he replies “Ehh… well, let’s just be friends.” Would that not frustrate you? Of course it would. The frustration of so-called Nice Guys is not with the fact that they have female friends. The frustration is due to their inability to get a sexual or romantic relationship. “Let’s just be friends” is a rejection on the part of the woman (although you can only call it a rejection if the man has had the courage to show interest directly…), because she doesn’t want to date the guy.
@Halo Effect @wanderingkatherine Yes, that would be frustrating, but I suppose my point is that women (and men) have every right to “reject” each other. Whether it’s because she’s not attracted to you or has trust issues or is not dating is not your business, there will eventually be someone of the bunch who does want to date you! It’s awesome if you can show interest directly, and many sane, delightful people will respect you for it, but you, in turn, need to respect that she doesn’t want to.
On the nomenclature of “Nice Guys,” the guys I am referring to are the ones who whine and whine about how nice they are, but in reality are sexist creeps who only stick around with female friends in order to sleep with them. Perhaps we have different Nice Guys floating around in our heads? It seems like the most important thing at this point is that you develop a meaningful relationship with yourself so that you actually like yourself, and everyone else will follow once that happens. I realize that this sounds corny, but it’s the truest thing I’ve found.
@wanderingkatherine I think we agree for the most part. I’m not one of those Nice Guys myself actually, but thanks for the sweet words. I think your concept of Nice Guys is perhaps a bit different from the concept of Nice Guys that is generally referred to online and in Robert Glover’s book No More Mr Nice Guy. It’s not so much sexist creep, and a lot more approval seeking, incapable of expressing his wants and needs, and avoiding any conflict or confrontation. Read this for Glover’s definition of a Nice Guy: http://www.drglover.com/no-more-mr-nice-guy.html (Scroll down a bit for nice bullet points.)
@wanderingkatherine @Halo Effect Right, it’s that sense of entitlement (which I’ve noticed in the Nice Guy part of myself occasionally) that is very ugly to see. Expecting that someone should sleep with you just because you did ‘this’ or are ‘that’ (and then getting annoyed when they don’t) could easily be the cause of frustration, lack of respect for boundaries, and neediness.
@timfraser123 @wanderingkatherine @Halo Effect There’s also another dynamic- a lot of American women, when they are the beneficiaries of your chivalrous actions, expect you to want to have sex with them. Short of giving them that, because you are just a chivalrous person, will frustrate them and sometimes anger them to act out of spite. This also renders friendship impossible.
When I first arrived this country a year and half ago from Europe, I used to have genuine concern for the safety and well-being of women I meet. After a while though, I noticed a lot of that is fishing for sympathy and attention. For example, a lot of women I meet, from 16 to 60, all have a close call story about being raped, or being held at gun point, etc. that they had to mention to me. Somehow I’ve never had to have that same story told to me in any other country in this world. Maybe it’s just because the US is the most violent place for women. I seriously doubt it.
By this point, I can understand why a lot of American men don’t bother with their women unless they want sex. Because it’s always about sex (well, almost always). Just about everything a man does is interpreted to be sexually motivated by their women. So it is not surprising people say Chivalry is dead. Men got tired of being misunderstood to be less than honorable.
@wanderingkatherine
I agree with you that women do go for nice guys, as long as they’re confident and charming, however an introverted, awkward nice guy is invisible to women. When it comes to said introverted, awkward man being friends with a beautiful, sweet, charming woman that that can be an extremely painful place for him. Especially when he holds on to one day being able to be with her if he just waits long enough or does xyz. I think these guys have a valid claim for being friend zoned, as most women are well aware when a guy friend likes them, but they also have a responsibility to change their behavior and in the future man up and be clear about their intentions from the start.
An excellent book related to this topic is titled, “Controlling People: How to Recognize, Understand, and Deal With People Who Try to Control You” by Patricia Evans. This book and others written by her really developed an understanding of what it means to live with Personal Power.
First up – I just want to make it clear I’m not claiming to be a lady killer or player or any of that stuff.
. Stop caring about the girl or getting it right or any of that limiting shit. You might just relax a bit and get laid.
But all I keep thinking is why do these guys care about women so much? I find it hard to grasp. No offense, but are women really all that great – worth all that effort – courses and books and programs and all the self-loathing and feelings of failure because some girl you barely know or care about didn’t want to sleep with you?
I mean they can be really cool sometimes but I’ve more often laughed or shared a meaningful moment with my male friends than with any woman I’ve dated. And I dare say I dated some really lovely girls and enjoyed them immensely but… I didn’t live for them. I didn’t spend years practicing what to do and say to have sex with them. I kinda don’t really get that. I’m a man, my body already knows what to do. I don’t reckon I have to over think it or anything.
I think pickup needs to die a real and permanent death – mostly because guys think it will change them – it doesn’t. Guys would save themselves alot of hassle if they just stopped bullshitting themselves first and take a good look at whether their life works without women. That’s a million times more important than whatever some girl you don’t know is going to do or not do.
And when you’ve got that handled then just listen to what thousands of generations of successful procreation is whispering to us through our impulses – a drink a couple of beers to help you tune in
@DamonYoung Most of your post seems to be arguing: “Heterosexuality, why bother?” I know that’s not what you mean, but when you say that men shouldn’t care about (not being successful with) women, and that you can have more fun with men anyway, then that’s what it sounds like.
Intimacy, love, sex, connection – all these things are incredibly important to us. Not only to men but to all human beings. And if you happen to lack all of these things in your life, because of lacking social skills or anxieties or other factors, then it would be some messed up rationalizing if you convince yourself that you’re better off without women in your life. “Just have a beer” is not enough for many men to get success with women. If this is enough for you to get the love and sex life that you desire, then congratulations, but that’s no reason to tell other men that they shouldn’t work on themselves to improve their love and sex lives.
@Halo Effect @DamonYoung
@Halo Effect Good points Halo Effect. On reflection, I can see how what I’ve written sounds dismissive. It certainly wasn’t meant that way. I’m all for self improvement in any form. My line of thought was more focused on the intention behind it.
My experience is that people tend to backwards justify their actions as self development when in truth they are still “doing for others” rather than themselves. That “someday I’ll fuck the prom queen (but not as I am now)” approach is robbing men of their happiness in a very real way IMO.
Love and sex are often the byproduct of a way of being that isn’t derived from the dogged pursuit of love and sex. Paradoxically, wanting something isn’t more likely to make it happen.
Most guys are their own worst enemies and the presupposition of the majority of self-development culture comes from a place of “I’m incomplete / wrong” – and that tends only to amplify pre-existing feelings of inadequacy.
Excellent, Mark!!
Great that someone has the balls to call out “nice guy” victims for being just as manipulative as the people they loathe. This circles back to all of the friend-zone excuses that people make. Great examples, too. Many back themselves into a corner of making excuses of not being able to ‘win’ in conversation and you cut right through that. Thanks and keep it up!
Mark are there any suggestions or examples you have of setting strong boundries? This is where i struggle the most. I am great with communication but the whole boundry thing is where im 100% sure I am messing up. Good article, it is pretty much a repeat of your book models in a different format.
Im not just talking about boundries with women im curious about examples of setting them with everyone I come in contact with in life.
@flashawesomo IMO an article on setting boundaries is long overdue. I’ve struggled with boundaries a lot myself.
@Halo Effect Agreed. I think it’s something you have to be conscious about doing at first, unlike other things that just “naturally” happen overtime.
Hey Mark, how does one know if his self-esteem is high enough (ie., vulnerable enough)? Are there serf-tests that one can do to help him recognize where he stand?
@ayjay Not feeling the need to ask questions like this is a good start.
@postmasculine
Touché. XD
Excellent post. Loved all the examples and case by case explanations. It’s all in the details!
In a sea of base and misogynistic “men’s dating advice,” your articles and website stand out like a lone island of logic and common sense. The way you responded to that letter was very admirable in that you didn’t jump on the “sexist!” or “misogynist!” card, but instead sought to educate him. The world of men needs more men like you—men who make a whole lot of sense and don’t need to put down people (especially women) to do it. Speaking as a woman who’s dated her fair share of men with the “Nice Guy Syndrome,” you’re doing an excellent job in spreading this kind of thinking. Keep it on up.
@thejollity Thanks, I’d like to add that this guy emailed me back and was very gracious. He said he saw that he had a long way to go and had a great attitude about the whole thing.
Great post. The key is “Psychological research shows that people of similar self-esteem end up attracted to one another. Research also shows that men and women with similar beliefs about gender end up together.”
I’ve been in this life for over 62 years. Honesty and vulnerability are useful approaches to life, let alone all relationships. I attract a lot of women, I agree that it is not a difficult thing to do if you know yourself and are willing to let the woman decide for herself whether to friend, mate with, or otherwise continue to interact with you.
Andy Schettino, Why Women Are So Problematic: A Memoir and Whimsical Polemic
I would also strongly encourage anyone who has not read “no more mr. nice guy” to check it out. It has come to my attention, my being a recovering nice guy myself, that being a “nice guy” is the equivalent to being like the family pet. Think about it for a second. When you tell a dog to sit, it sits, but only because it expects a reward. Dogs are great examples of nice guys, they will doing anything to make you happy when you don’t even do much for your dog sometimes in the first place. Just my 2 cents.
I went to a boot-camp on PUA by Serendipitous and practiced it also. I learned a lot of good tactics about how to communicate better with women, and use these for the purpose of getting dates, sexual conquests, thrills, ego validation. Immediately my success went up a lot in various ways. But I really actually wanted a good girlfriend and I think my neediness for that was what was blocking my previous success. However I eventually met the woman of my dreams and perhaps because I’m more emotionally stable and set good boundaries, things have been going great and we are so happy together.
My retrospective is that attitudes like those displayed on this blog are really the right ones. Being emotionally mature, setting good boundaries, honesty, these are absolutely the right way to go. PUA trains one in tactics and you try them out and they feel funny at first because maybe you’re a bit maladjusted, or maybe society is maladjusted. Some of them work. Some of them don’t match your personality. But in the end they’re just tactics and you have to re-integrate the pieces into the whole of being yourself.I remember meeting the lady who I’m now engaged to. I thought, “Wow, I’ve been having fun playing around with girls, but this lady is a wonderful person. I feel utterly out of league now with my PUA tactics. I don’t feel anything shallow like flirting or lust — I feel genuine admiration for her.” It is always critical to communicate well, express attraction. But I knew I couldn’t fake anything that time, because only being myself would last.
Ironically despite the celibacy of Buddhism, it is similar to the path of Buddhism. The ideas that everything causes everything, that the self is illusion, that the state of the world is suffering and suffering should be avoided. These seem very contradictory and confusing at first. But slowly your state of thinking shifts, and you become a better or more harmonious version of your same self.Re-integrate…
Thank you for explaining human behavior in such an easy and cool way. Love your articles.
I’m new to this site, and to this author’s opinions. Having studied (but not practiced) the teachings of the pick-up artists, I think that this site has probably the best rebuttal to them I’ve seen – one which really identifies the source of their misogyny and limitations on their understanding of women and sexuality.
However, based on what I see here, I do think the term vulnerable is a bit of an abuse of terminology – vulnerability implies the ability to be easily hurt – something which is clearly not a part of the picture painted in the interactions. In fact, the vision I see painted here is one of a different alpha male – one who is honest and not a douche. I would say I think “honest” is a better descriptor than “vulnerable”.
Anyway, I also think the concept of vulnerability is, in itself, potentially dangerous, if misapplied. People, men and women both, are often vicious and manipulative, and few flesh and blood humans live up to the ideal of being immune to criticism, and above worrying about the opinions of others. I think opening one’s self too much to a stranger is generally a bad idea, because it will likely result in rejection and/or emotional harm. This, in turn, will make a person less secure, rather than more.
Thanks for stopping by Dave.
Some people have nitpicked the usage of “vulnerability” and I have to say that I see some of their points, yours included. Unfortunately, I have yet to come across a better usage of it, and there’s a lot of new research coming out describing the social behavior above as “being vulnerable” and noting its positive effects on relationships.
The concern you raise about being rejected and being hurt is the whole point of vulnerability. When you hide and guard yourself from hurt/rejection, you lose power and you lose status (and consequently, you behave in unattractive ways). When you open yourself to rejection and assert your self-perceptions over those of others, that’s how you gain power AND intimacy in your relationships.
It’s kind of confusing. Here’s are a couple other articles on the subject: http://postmasculine.com/power-in-vulnerability and http://postmasculine.com/a-note-on-vulnerability.
Epic.
I found PostMasculine through Alden Tan, and I`m really glad I did
Dude… this is some real, quality wisdom for a fresh generation of badasses.
I *love* the depth you went into with your multi-example addressing of his e-mail on a point-by-point basis.
Total respect.
Absolutely right on.