This is the first of a two-part series. In this post I will cover what the Madonna/Whore Complex is and argue against its impulses both from a pragmatic and philosophical point of view. For those of you who regularly rant against the state of the modern female, or how all women are stupid/cheaters/sluts/filthy/horrible, then you’re going to absolutely hate this post. Not that women are perfect little angels, but I’m going to be coming after the source of your anger and indignation. But I invite you to take a deep breath and keep an open mind. In the next post, I’ll get into the psychology that I have seen in perhaps 99% of the guys involved in this industry and community and how it relates to women.
The Madonna/Whore Complex originates with Sigmund Freud. Freud noticed that men who grew up with distant, cold and/or emotionally abusive mothers developed complexes surrounding women and sex. As the men grew up, they sought out women in their adulthood that possessed the same cold and distant traits of their mothers. What results is an acute fear of intimacy in which men compartmentalize women into categories of pure women who are worthy of love and commitment, and then the sexually desirable women who are sluts or whores. The most popular way the complex plays itself out is in the paradox in which any woman a man sexual desires must be a slut or a whore, and any woman who loves him and adores him is considered pure and consequently, he fears intimacy and feels inferior around her.
It’s kind of a sexual form of the “I don’t want to join any club that would have me as a member,” conundrum.
The whole theory, like many psychological theories, is murky and the only real consensus about it is that basically, a lot of men seem to have a lot of anger and desire tied together around feminine sexuality, as well as a fear of intimacy and inability to get close to women who are deemed marriage-material. Think serial cheaters. Angry womanizers. Playboys with commitment issues.
Generally, any sort of animosity towards female sexuality, belief that certain women are sluts, whores, bitches, skanks, etc. are typical signs of the Madonna/Whore Complex in action. Obviously, it varies widely from man to man, but anything from a shrewd comment about some bitch in a short skirt, to saying you’d never touch a girl because she sucked some guy’s cock in the club bathroom, to going into violent rages at girlfriends over the most minuscule issues are common manifestations.
The philosophical problem with the Madonna/Whore Complex is that it’s a double-standard and it’s misogynistic. It’s basically saying that feminine sexuality should be controlled and squelched, that women who are overtly or freely sexual are somehow morally inferior, while masculine sexuality is free to roam free. Women have far deeper and more complex sexualities than men and to try to limit them from expressing it is flat out prejudice.
It’s a double-standard because as men, we want women to openly sexual with us — we want them to have the threesome with us, we want them to blow us in the movie theater, we want them to fuck us in the dressing room at H&M — but as soon as they do it with another guy, they’re a fucking skanky-bitch-ass-slut-whore and no fucking way would I ever go near her, she’s probably go herpes or something.
It’s the mere masculine jealousy and insecurity around the feminine affection — again, handed down at childhood — playing itself out in courtship.
If you don’t buy the philosophical argument against the M/W Complex, here’s the pragmatic argument: women aren’t going to be sexually open with a guy who judges and criticizes women for being sexually open. You know that whole Last-Minute-Resistance (LMR) thing? Or that so-called Anti-Slut Defense (ASD) thing? You need to be part of the solution, not part of the problem. Things like LMR don’t exist if you’re able to make a woman feel sexually comfortable and open around you. Often this requires little more than an open and candid conversation about sexual experiences and expectations without showing any judgment whatsoever. Once she sees that she can tell you about the time she cheated on her boyfriend in college, or the time she got drunk and had a threesome with her roommate and her roommate’s boyfriend, and you don’t freak out or call her a whore or laugh at her, chances are she’s not going to think twice when it comes time to sleep with you.
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Great, then you won’t mind if we take turns with your girlfriend. No judging now. And remember, jealousy means you’re “insecure”.
What a ridiculous comment. Where did Mark say or even imply that you should be ok with your girlfriend cheating on you? If the agreement in your relationship is that you are monogamous, and that agreement is a source of security to you, then you are going to feel betrayed and angry when the other person breaches it. Mark’s not saying that you should be ok with that.
Also, I’m not sure how long you’ve been reading this blog, but perhaps you didn’t know that Mark has previously been in an open relationship. So ironically his girlfriend may well have slept with other guys while they were together, which he was (probably) fine with.
His central point here is that guys with the M/W complex have double standards. They want women to be incredibly sexual and freaky with them, but not other guys. Or even if it’s only with them, when their girlfriend does something really freaky, they immediately judge her for it.
I think he’s implying that it’s a form of immaturity. Guys have all these sexual fantasies and expectations of women, but can’t handle the complexity of what this translates to in reality.
Mark, this hit home hard. Can’t wait for part 2. I know you’ve said that you yourself have some form of a M/W complex, how much of that do you still carry, and how does it manifest itself?
Tim: I think I’ve come to realize that I have less of a M/W complex with women’s actual sexuality. I think I have more of a problem with how sexuality is expressed in Western culture, particularly among women. I think all of the traveling has helped me pinpoint that. I’m rarely uncomfortable with any aspect of a girl’s sexuality once I get to know her. What bothers me is some of the typical “slutty” behavior that is encouraged or revered in American culture.
And don’t mind modernguy… his mother didn’t hug him enough. :
Wow. I totally agree. I can’t say I don’t also have facets of a M/W complex, but I think a part of it is that I really can’t stand that women or men being extremely sexual in a way that minimizes the rest of their personality is so celebrated in Western culture. In NZ, where Durex studies show we have women with some of the highest numbers of sexual partners in a lifetime, I’ve always disliked that the hook-up culture actively promotes an avoidance of trying to properly understand the person you’re trying to sleep with.
I was talking to this girl on the train the other day, and at one point it came up that she was a stripper. Now, a couple of years back I would have immediately judged her and probably very obviously communicated this, even if I didn’t actively say something. However, I felt with the connection we’d shared and how I now understood her more holistically as a person, that her being a stripper wasn’t a big deal. We talked about her job and though I’m not a fan of strip clubs, it was really interesting to discuss her job, the lifestyle it provided her with, and where she wanted to go with it.
After our conversation I felt like I’d really learnt something from her and just that experience. This post and your comment really reinforces that. Thanks man.
Yes! Go Mark!
Hello dude, if your “girlfriend” is banging other dudes you’re a chump. Maybe instead of castrating yourself trying to “accept” that your little angel liked to blow the football team you should grow a pair and accept that people want seemingly conflicting things and double standards exist in the world. Men want virgins that are sluts for them, just like women want the dominant guy that all the other girls want, but they want him to be exclusive to her and treat her well. Its the nature of the game. If you want to lower your standards and take risks for sluts, go ahead, but don’t make a virtue out of it.
Wow, that’s the most thoughtful and coherent comment you’ve ever posted here.
The question though, is is that double-standard natural or cultural? There’s a LOT of scientific research suggesting its cultural and learned. Not to mention psychological observations supporting that as well…
I also think we should separate this from the monogamous/non-monogamous argument, as that’s completely different discussion (it revolves around trust in a relationship more than sexuality) and stick to judging and condemning expression of female sexuality.
So let’s say a hot, single girl gets drunk and fucks a guy in the bathroom. Does that bother you or not?
Of course, it’s natural. You’ve gotta know pretty much nothing about evolutionary biology to not understand it. Or be a politically correct wuss?
It is extremely natural, because paternity has never been certain.
There are a lot of factors at play with your example, and our primal brain makes its decision based on how we weight and evaluate them:
1) She’s hot which means the child will have superior genes, good
2) She gives sex freely which means I will be more likely to get it on with her, good
3) She’s promiscuous which means I’m much more likely to have competition and end up raising someone else’s child, bad
And remember, there’s no such thing as sex for pleasure. Sex for pleasure IS a culturally constructed concept. Historically, sex always led to reproduction, and our brains and emotions act accordingly.
Umm… maybe you need to be the one reading up on evolutionary psychology. Sex for pleasure is a naturally selected trait.
It gets much more complicated than the formula you laid out.
I know I’ve made an impression if you think that, which means I said something that hit home before too.
Plenty of people do plenty of things that I don’t agree with, if it doesn’t impinge on me or other innocent people, that’s their life. As for hot single girls debauching themselves while smashed out of their minds, I think it’s a symptom of the degeneracy of the culture and I wouldn’t consider a girl like that good for anything more than maybe casual sex. But casual sex is just people using each other, so I don’t mean to imply that it’s a step up from fucking drunk in the bathroom. People do what they want, what matters is motives. If you’re a “pua” looking for reasons to forgive bad behavior on the part of the girls you want to bang, save it. You don’t need to, just bang them for who they are. But what you’re trying to do is convince everyone else that black is the new white and our eyes were wrong all along. You wouldn’t go into a business arrangement with someone who had a history of irresponsibility, so why would anyone go into a relationship with a slut?
Interestingly, I don’t disagree with most of what you say here. Where we diverge is when you relate it to relationships.
I don’t think a girl’s sexual behavior while she was single or her sexual behavior with previous boyfriends necessarily affects her relationship with me. I also think the defining traits of a good girlfriend are trust and respect, and again, I see her previous sexual behavior as independent from those things.
My point is, I would marry a girl who’s been with 50 guys assuming I trust her to uphold whatever arrangement we make in our relationship. And I wouldn’t marry a virgin if I didn’t trust her to uphold the relationship.
I’m curious as to why you think a girl doing dumb drunk slutty things should affect her relationship negatively. In fact, I could make a lot of arguments of why it’s better to be with a sexually experienced girl than an inexperienced one (more conscious of her needs and desires, less likely to seek sexual validation, more comfortable communicating her needs to you, etc.)
If you’re not taking her past into account, what are you judging her on? I agree that it’s not everything, but extreme behavior usually merits investigation. You say “if you trusted her” but what would you be basing this trust on?
How her actions align with what she says. If she’s honest about her sexual history, I see no reason to hold that against her.
I think we’re probably talking at cross purposes. When someone says they’re looking for a girl for a ‘relationship’ I tend to think they’re talking about looking for someone who they want to be with long term. Which implies building something together – a home, a family, etc. In that case I think character comes in to it a great deal and there isn’t any better indicator of character than history, because character is built over a long period of time. And if a girl has been with 50 guys there’s something there to look into. That kind of girl is (or was) damaged, or just was never thinking long term, and to think that that kind of person is suddenly going to turn on a dime and set her sights on the future and start making all the sacrifices you have to make to benefit tomorrow rather than today, in my opinion, is a mistake.
If your opinion of ‘long term’ though is like, 2 years, and then you intend to move on, then yeah, who cares if she used to blow the entire Stones’ tour bus, she’ll at least be fun. I probably wouldn’t want to kiss her though.
People change and their priorities change. Maybe it bothers me so much less because I went through periods being “damaged” or was “never thinking long-term” at points either. If I can come around and settle down, why can’t she.
All of your points make sense, and are legitimate concerns. But in the end, I think your charged language and the importance you put on sexual history just kind of proves the point of the article.
“I think your charged language and the importance you put on sexual history just kind of proves the point of the article.” <- this
There are so many things wrong with your way of thinking, in my opinion, that yeah I get a little charged over it. Your type of hyper liberal moral revisionist thinking is the kind of thinking that is destroying what used to make American society healthy.
If you don’t think women’s sexuality should be “controlled” (guided), you might ask yourself who is going to produce the next generation and how are those kids going to be raised? A civilization is not sustained by “puas” writing books on how to seduce women for easy sex. The traditional forms of family formation – marrying early to someone who is sexually inexperienced and using your combined energy to build a family that can integrate into society in a productive way – are what sustain a society and create progress.
“Your type of hyper liberal moral revisionist thinking is the kind of thinking that is destroying what used to make American society healthy.”
Citations? Studies? Links? Any kind of proof backing this up?
Perhaps your definition of healthy and mine differ. I don’t think being sexually repressed for your entire life falls anywhere into the realm of healthy.
“used to make American society healthy.”
I mean, all things aside, when the fuck was America’s society healthy? First of all, that is a HUGE generalization. Second of all we have a history of racism, prejudice, crazy religions imposing their bullshit on everyone, war, hate, sexual repression, genocide, sexism, and on and on and on. All of these things are woven directly into the fabric of our country since it began.
In that one sentence you pretty much made it obvious you have a rather skewed version of reality. Sorry brah but you sound silly.
“And if a girl has been with 50 guys there’s something there to look into. That kind of girl is (or was) damaged, or just was never thinking long term, and to think that that kind of person is suddenly going to turn on a dime and set her sights on the future and start making all the sacrifices you have to make to benefit tomorrow rather than today, in my opinion, is a mistake.”
You could say exactly the same thing about a man. So why limit it to just women?
Because before the technological revolution and condoms, a young man who’s been with 50 women produced 50 children, and a young women who’s been with 50 men, produced 3 children, a lot of fights, drama and jealousy, and defrauded most of these men of their resources, time and energy, and whoever the idiot is who’s with her now still pays for all that.
That’s way.
The current scientific debate is whether humans have always been like this (men possessive of female sexuality), or if it’s something that arose with agricultural societies.
Honestly, I don’t know the answer. But in the 50 years since technology and condoms (actually birth control is the more important one, condoms have been around for centuries), perhaps we should alter our beliefs?
What Mark said. We aren’t in the time before birth control anymore. So that argument doesn’t apply.
Look, if someone wants to argue that men and women both shouldn’t sleep around because it’s damaging to society, I can understand that argument even if I don’t agree with it. But to high-five a man who sleeps around while calling a woman who does the same a slut or a whore or whatever just smacks of misogyny to me.
Guys that sleep with hundreds of women don’t get high fived buddy. I don’t even know where the whole stud mentality came from. Your average person absolutely hates anyone who has had this much sexual experience.
LOL! Sounds so correct!
We just had that discussion in another site, where one the guys said that for men, everything is a competition (including, of course, the amount of women you have sex with). So I think that while sleeping with lots of women is supposed to be some indication are an “alpha male”, you will also be envied and hated by fellow men.
Either way – this is just my interpretation.
As you said – I’ve never been a man
True true, those who are loved by many are hated by many.
Well, it’s nice to see we have something we can agree on =]
“why would anyone go into a relationship with a slut?”
I love sluts, nothing is a bigger turn on than a girl who is comfortable with her sexuality enough to express it by seducing me.
Plus, the other side of the cookie is annoying sometimes… I have a girl on the line now who requires me to re-seduce her everytime we had sex, everytime. It’s weird, I feel like Bill Murray in Groundhog Day with her. Everytime I try to talk with her about it she changes the subject too lol, it’s freaky.
I find in day to day life I am of course ‘attracted’ to women when I see them in a general way, but its not necessarily overtly sexual.
When I meet a girl that has a slut factor/high sex appeal however, it turns me on so much. I guess you feel that your own desire for sex is reciprocal. Idealization of ‘angel’ type girls don’t really turn me on.
Although I guess its the mixture of angel/slut and the conflicts and contrasts within that, that makes a women really attractive.
I wish I knew more ‘sluts’ personally! Most girls I meet/know don’t seem that sexually expressive at all. Its still like this thing that they’re not meant to admit to liking. Sad really.
Word.
I do understand the attraction to ‘angel’ types as well, but a girl who really wants to get down and dirty is definitely much more my type.
And of course I realize she probably acts like this around other men, but I don’t really care. Women who don’t know how to express themselves sexually just seem strange to me.
It seems like modernguy has some good points here, but perhaps he is trying to read too much into what Mark is saying. Whether you like it or not, this phenomenon does exist, and it’s very useful to be aware of, especially for picking up.
Most people tend to judge people on a case by case basis, not by he said she said hearsay. Not everyone values the same traits in another individual either. For example, I would rather hang out with people who are experienced sexually, like me, because dealing with inexperienced people is just plain annoying regardless of sex.
The only thing you will reinforce by not being open about sex with your girl, is that they should lie to you about their sexual history. So being open would still work for you in the end modernguy, otherwise you might end up marrying some girl who blew the practical pickup crew and never bothered to tell you about it.
With regards to how relevant this is culturally, I would say it is very dependant on culture. I’ve done all of my picking up in Japan so I don’t have much of a basis for comparison, but the girls here are much much less open to talk about their sexuality than girls back home are. Or that’s how it feels from talking with friends and reading about other’s experiences online.
They basically seem to be ultra conservative sexually, until you get them in bed, after which they will pretty much do anything you want them to. This is just an observation and a complete generalization, not all girls fall into this category here. The Japanese attitude is basically, if we don’t talk about it, it didn’t happen though, and it puts a small twist on the game here.
“The Japanese attitude is basically, if we don’t talk about it, it didn’t happen though, and it puts a small twist on the game here.”
That just strikes me as incredibly emotionally unhealthy in the long-run. Haha.
Yeah… might even partly explain the high suicide rate here, which I think is linked very closely to unhealthy social behavoirs. Obviously there are other factors too, but general social awkwardness is quite prevalent here…
So this makes it okay that my mother was emotionally abusive to me and essentially made me the passive, unassertive person that I am today?
No one is saying whether it’s OK or it’s not OK. This post is just a description and explanation. It is what it is. We all grow up with some sort of emotional issues. This is just a plausible psychological explanation for men who feel this way.
Hi,
I would like to really really really ask for a post on the following subject.
“Women have far deeper and more complex sexualities than men and to try to limit them from expressing it is flat out prejudice.”
Read “My Secret Garden” by Nancy Friday. You’ll be amazed.
Just as much okay as you will use that as an excuse to rationalize your justifications for how you think about and treat women in your life. And so the cycle will continue.
I’m not trying to suggest you pick yourself up by the boots when you have non-existant straps, but rather that no one is to blame in the end. We are all in this together.
Women are our equals, our sisters, our mothers, our friends, our lovers.
Please say that again… this time in English.
Just read Roosh Vs recent article: http://www.rooshv.com/open-letter-to-the-parents-of-american-daughters
kinda related to this post
I feel like a lot of this issue stems from religion as well.
I believe threes some truth to what you are saying but the reason we men can be open sexually ,more than women is not because we get more privileges or want to be unfair but rather; because the repercussions for men and women are different
You see we as men obtain a women (or sex) based on our verbal game so to speak. And generally speaking women obtain men based on their bodies (or at least attract them ) or else we wouldn’t have sex slogans everywhere.
Now biologically speaking we are born different when women have multiple sex partners they end up on “Maury” the t.v show because they can’t handle the “emotional stigma” that comes from having multiple sex partners . By nature women are “emotional creatures”
You see women know that women that have multiple sex partners are considered “hoes” so a lot of them try to justify their sex partners by having “that did not count” sex.
And a lot of them are looking for love through a different dick every weekend whereas we men are just looking to bust a nut a be with a new chick. But hey I digress
Masculine energy : Leadership, Father leadership skills, goals , ambition , strength , adventure etc.
Feminine Energy : Maternal Instincts, Love , Kindness,Intimacy, Nurturing etc.
So this touches on what I mentioned above , if a woman is “hoish” she could not feed into the qualities that we look for in the long run; in terms of “Wifey Material” .That is the main reason we call female’s that are un-sexually disciplined .
Mack, if we ever meet, I’m going to print this article out, crinkle it into a ball, and then toss it RIGHT over your head.
Yes! this is awesome once again. I had issues like this maybe 2-3 years ago about women being skany hores or what not. Its only until maybe 9-12 months that i believe i have fully gotten over the M/WC. a girl gave me the LJBF speech the other day and spoke about how she cheated on her bf and i was really unaffected with her decision as i’ve let go ever since pu where as 3 yrs ago i would of judged her outright. i think that was a prime example of getting over this complex.
Mark,
here’s a twist on the double standard nurture/nature debate. I got this from a standup comedian, but hear this out I think it’s legit. Men, or at least a lot more so than women, are the builders/drivers of our economy. Sex is the “carrot” that drives men to work, the other carrot being power but sex is equally strong. If women behaved like men and a double standard didn’t exist, everybody would just be screwing all the time. No work would get done. I think in subtle ways evolution has reinforced that sex must be somewhat difficult to attain for men in order to keep the carrot in front of them and keep society productive and progressive.
P.S. No wonder society looks down on “sluts”, they are destroying our economy!! lol
Very amusing. May be something to it.
I’d recommend for everyone interested in this subject to check out “Sex at Dawn” by Christopher Ryan and Cacilda Jetha. I don’t agree with all of the conclusions in the book, but they present mountains of scientific research that challenges the traditional evolutionary model and gender roles.
Scientists are now looking at the question of male/female sexuality, what’s biological and what’s cultural, and what the purpose of lot our sexualities — biologists, anthropologists, psychologists, etc. Right now there’s a lot of conflicting information and the jury’s still out.
But I think for all practical purposes in western society, this post should be useful.
A lot of discussion is centered around unethical behavior like cheating and women sleeping with 50+ men, which I feel is kind of besides the point here. I feel like the whole M/W complex (and how it is flawed) can be understood better if you look at this from the woman’s perspective.
Women are very sexual. There are differences among women, obviously. Big differences. But generally, women love men. Women love sex. Women love being sexual. Women have sexual urges, like we all do. A woman might get wet when she notices a bulge in her boss’ pants. If she hasn’t gotten laid in a while she might dress a little more slutty when going out and enjoy the attention she gets and she might even entertain the thought of a big strong man forcing herself on her as she fingers herself on her bed before going out. If she’s going out with a new guy, and he seems promising, she might fantasize about what he’ll be like in bed and masturbate. This is not some strange fiction. This is not describing the sluttiest of women. This is pretty normal female sexual behavior. This is reality.
That’s just how women (people?) work. It can be incredibly fulfilling for a woman to express her sexuality, to act dirty and slutty, especially with a guy who completely accepts her and respects her. Now, I may be brainwashed by David Shade and the like. But if you consider all this… If you know all this… I feel like you must either be repulsed by women, by ALL women, and reject the whole freaking gender, or be completely understanding and accepting when a woman tells you how she once sucked two cocks at once and loved it.
(Forgive my English, it’s not my native tongue)
I’m a woman, and I must say that what Phil said here is a pretty accurate description of a woman. All of the women I know, at least.
I think you left something out, though. I find that many men are intimidated by very sexual women. To me it always seem like men feel they ought to be the sexual animal in the interaction (I purposely don’t say “relationship”), and when they find out that you are more sexual than they had expected they go “WHOA! what kind of a crazy slut are you?!”.
So for me, the M/W complex is a way for men to deal with their own insecurities regarding their own sexuality. They just shame sexual women into their “proper place”.
And indeed, the men I had the best sex with were those that thought my experience/kinks/desires are a great thing, and were actually comfortable with me taking the lead some times.
p.s – The layout of your site is too narrow, it is really hard to read.
Before I say something, my mother loves me very much
And I think that she is the most amazing women on earth. Also I do not think that all women are sluts and whores. However, here we go:
Yes, there are double standards and they exist for a reason. Cry me a river but women and men are different. We are wired differently. Most men can out bench most women, I hope you agree with this. Also most men are more logical than most women.
Now what I am trying to get here at is that we are different. And that is why there is a double standard. It’s there for a reason. You didn’t create it and nor did I. It’s been here for ages, and you know why? Because it’s true. Women were not programmed to bang 100 of guys in their life time. And if you’ve dated enough girls, most don’t really want to. It’s not normal for a girl to be hooking up left and right. If she does, then maybe she’s insecure about her body, or has low self esteem and thinks no guy will want her for anything other than sex.
I’ve dated these girls, and I’ve dated other girls, who were disgusted by the thoughts of banging tons of dudes. Now of course you might say that “those girls are just not open with their sexuality, and haven’t discovered themselves yet” and all that bullshit, but no.
Women are wired to find the “best” suiting life partner and committee to him. And that’s why when a girl goes out of that path, people call her a “slut”. Slut is just a label, the point is that she isn’t wired properly.
This is why when you find out that a girl banged 3 guys at the same time, you kinda start thinking that maybe you shouldn’t get serious with her. It’s subconscious. You might think that you don’t, but deep down inside you do have that uncomfortable feeling. I know you do, any normal guy would. Doesn’t make you insecure. You just can’t go against nature.
If you wanna get all evolutional. Women can only have a baby from one guy at a time. While a man can impregnate a bunch of women at once.
Also women who are more promiscuous tend to cheat more than girls who see sex as more of a big deal from my experience and observations.
Good day
These are all good points, and I think this thread has blurred the point of the article somewhat. You’re right slut is just a label, but it is a label feared by any woman. No girl wants to be branded with it, even women with a healthy attitude towards sex, which I would agree with you, can be defined as a girl who is search for a quality partner.
The point of the article, is that by opening up to a woman about your own sexuality, and that fact that you are comfortable with women who enjoy sex, then she will become more comfortable, and hence, more willing to have sex with you. Because she now knows that you don’t fall into the category of men who brand women with such labels.
Alex,
I agree that some women are definitely not girlfriend potential. But this is not because they are sexual or “slutty”. This is because she might have low self-esteem. Because she might be a drama queen. She might hate men. She might have had very negative experiences in the past and has a fucked up idea of sexuality or relationships. She might be stupid. She might have commitment issues. She might be a compulsive liar. She might be a sociopath. I could go on. You could reject a woman for any of these reasons. Some of these reasons could lead to abnormal behavior like becoming a stripper or pornstar, or having sex with a new guy twice a week. If a woman has done some unusual, “slutty” things, this could point to emotional issues.
But you seem to be implying that simply because a girl has “given it up” X times, she becomes unattractive as a partner. I assume you are aware that women have a desire for sex as well. Women desire sex, women desire men, and women desire naughty and pervy things. In your eyes, a woman gains value if she suppresses her natural desires? She must go through her life and refuse to do what she really wants? She must deny herself incredible pleasure that she can feel? And why? Because if she suppresses her natural desires, THEN she is attractive to you, and THEN you want her to suddenly express all those sexual desires with you?
There is one problem with your logic.
You say women frown upon the idea of sleeping around. That’s what they tell you, right? It makes perfect, because if they sense you’re judgemental, they simply won’t bother to be telling you their sexual (mis)adventures.
That of course doesn’t mean that if a guy turns her on, she will stick to the words she told you a while ago. From a logical standpoint she may agree with you, but once her sex drive gets revved up, sorry Winetou – logic is thrown away.
Girls want to have fun, but to have fun without labels. After all, if you call a girl “slut” for having a sex drive and acting on it, I might as well call you disgusting, because you pee, poop, puke, belch and fart.
Also ss a guy who lived in 4 countries I can tell you that only in America people have this belief that women can openly be as sexual as men. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t care if a girl gets all freaky with her boy friend. But you get what I am saying.
And then comes feminism into play. Gender roles exist for a reason, like I said in my previous post. It is what it is. We are different. That’s why divorce rate in the USA is the highest in the world.
I’d be curious to hear which countries those were. I have very little faith in marriage as an institution of love.
Historically, marriage seems to be more about protecting property and wealth than it does seem to be about a union of love.
I’d expect the cause for the high divorce rate in US to be because the women are not as financially dependent on the men, so they have much less to lose (and in some cases much more to gain) in divorcing someone. I forgot where I heard the statistics ( I think it was during a college course on sex), but I believe that women initiate divorce more than men in the US.
Seriously, fuck these type of guys.
Phil I agree that usually it does have to do with some kind of emotional issue or low self esteem.
“But you seem to be implying that simply because a girl has “given it up” X times, she becomes unattractive as a partner. I assume you are aware that women have a desire for sex as well. Women desire sex, women desire men, and women desire naughty and pervy things. In your eyes, a woman gains value if she suppresses her natural desires? She must go through her life and refuse to do what she really wants? She must deny herself incredible pleasure that she can feel? And why? Because if she suppresses her natural desires, THEN she is attractive to you, and THEN you want her to suddenly express all those sexual desires with you?”
Here’s the deal. Like I said girls and guys are different and that is why there is a double standard. Let me elaborate. We as dudes get aroused visually. We see a hot chick , we want to bang her. Girls are not like that. They see a decent guy, they wonder how it would be to get to know him, or how would it feel like to be his girlfriend. Girls want to bang when they are aroused. They don’t think about sex as much as we do in their everyday life. Unless maybe if they havent banged in a year and are just frustrated sexually. So what I am trying to say here at, if a girl wants sex as bad as a typical dude wants, just with anybody, then something isn’t right with her. It’s ok for a girl to want sex with a dude she’s dating when he has his hand up her skirt. But it’s not ok for a girl to go out to a night club every weekend and get fucked by a different guy. If that’s the case something isn’t right. It isn’t that she enjoys sex, so much. It’s some kind of emotional issue that triggers the “sluttiness”. Naturally girls don’t wanna “score” like guys do. But of course they enjoy sex, I am not denying it.
All I would say is that yes, in general, biologically these things are true. But there are biological exceptions just as there are psychological exceptions and cultural exceptions.
So I would just hesitate to use such definitive, “a girl who does this is right, and a girl who does that is screwed up” type language.
People come in all sexual shapes, forms, sizes and preferences. Biology, psychology and culture all have a hand in it… and for most people, they’re never going to change it past a certain age (especially men studies show). So I think it’s better to just accept it at face value.
I don’t like these biological arguments. There are many things that are “wired into my biology” like running around naked and gathering berries (I guess), and many things that are not, like studying for my math degree.
Yet the fact that I study for my degree is considered acceptable and healthy, while running around naked is not, to say the least.
As a society, we have overcome our biology in so many magnificent ways, yet whenever someone feels the urge to support some reactionary argument, we are all fluids and tubes again.
You’re right. But I would just say that getting your math degree and having sex are a false equivalents. Not everyone gets a math degree. Everyone has sex. Every species has sex (in some form). The examples you gave are cultural behaviors. Sex is not a cultural behavior. Cats, termites, gay people, flowers — they all have sex. Sex is a biological behavior, and so you can’t remove biological considerations from it.
But I agree in general. Human sexual behavior has biological components (which, like it or not, research is showing men and women DO have significant biological and hormoanal differences when it comes to sex). But sex also has large psychological components and cultural components which are probably even more important.
In the end, I think we need to fix the psychological and cultural components of sexual behavior as much as we can, while respecting and accepting any biological differences which come up. I’m not saying the examples Alex gave are right (They’re very gross over-generalizations of some basic research findings). I’m just saying, you can’t ignore biology. Individuals will vary widely, but biology will show general overarching patterns.
In the end, it all comes back to tolerance for different people and different lifestyle choices.
I’m not saying there aren’t biological components to my behavior. I just don’t like the way they suddenly become all important when people want me (as a representative of women) to be quiet and behave myself.
So yeah – we agree, I just needed some bitching there.
lol, fair enough.
Whoa, Alex!
Lots of misconceptions about us, girls!
We do want to just fuck, we do get aroused by men’s looks (and when it comes to me, by smells and voices as well), we like hooking up with random guys at clubs.
Of course, not all of us do, but not all men want to have sex with a different girl every night as well.
There are girls all over the “sexual behavior” spectrum, just like men. Different girls have different reasons to act as they do, just like men. Some may have issues, some are just plain horny, just like men (for instance, I could say that basing you self-image on the number of girls you had sex with is not a very healthy practice, and it is definitely what some guys do).
And while I can understand why you wouldn’t want to date a girl with issues (just like I wouldn’t date a guy who has to prove something by fucking many girls), I think that saying every girl who has a healthy sexual appetite is “broken” is just wrong.
How can you make such a massive generalization? There are 3 billion women out there, they’re not all the same. Speaking for myself – sometimes I get to know a guy and think I like him, I want to be his girlfriend. Sometimes I see a guy with the sort of grin I like and back muscles I can juuusst see through his shirt and I vividly fantasize about fucking him for hours. Sometimes they’re both the same guy, sometimes they aren’t. And I’m ONE woman! and it varies! Imagine the variation you’ll get across 3 billion!
I think a girl who wants to go out and bang someone new every night is just as messed up as a guy who does. No more or less. I don’t think its the healthiest of behaviours, but if that’s what they want to do, not my problem.
I think it’s kindof a misconception that women don’t get aroused by men’s looks… I’m sure its not to the same extent that it is for men, but its definitely a factor. I think the confusion might arise from the way that different women find a range of men attractive, whereas men appear to have narrower shared standards for attraction. For example, I know women who specifically have things for a) ‘Silver foxes’, b) skinny bookish types with glasses, c) big metalheads with long shiny hair, d) snowboarders… each of these women would not find the same men attractive.
“Girls want to bang when they are aroused. ”
And so do guys. Ummm, isn’t it kinda obvious?
“So what I am trying to say here at, if a girl wants sex as bad as a typical dude wants, just with anybody, then something isn’t right with her”
If a person, no matter the gender, wants to bang just anybody, it’s a nymphomania. They cure that shit.
“But it’s not ok for a girl to go out to a night club every weekend and get fucked by a different guy.”
What’s the problem with that, as long as she is single?
“Naturally girls don’t wanna “score” like guys do.”
Of course they do. Do you want to have sex with JUST ANYBODY? If not, then you’re no different than the girls you’re describing.
Hello All,
Men want to believe that women view sex differently to them. Why? This belief makes them feel safe. Guess what. I’m a woman. I like sex (just as men do). I see attractive men and my mind wanders (just as a man’s does when he sees an attractive woman), the imagination runs wild (just as a man’s does), women look in places you don’t want to know about (think crotch..measuring up). Women are human beings, all human beings have needs, wants & desires. Society and gender roles over many years have developed skewed views of women’s attitudes towards sex. Women are not as innocent (and why should we be) as you men would like to believe. I understand it’s nice to believe that your partner, lover, girlfriend, wife doesn’t look at or desire other men but guess what, we do. And that’s ok. We are all human. Happy gawking!
“A man wants a virgin whose a whore”
No matter what modern theories you try to put in your head, its evolutionary masculine nature to want a pure woman, and if not as close as one can get, but then again you are settling. Why are men not interested in marrying a porn star then if she says she’s clean and she says she’ll be faithful, its just a matter of degree, isn’t it? Women do not value chastity in men by nature, but men do value chastity in women by nature. Only complete brainwashing can change that.
Of course men have to pretend to be ok with her sexual proclivities in order to get sex from her and then dump her. Not in the least to marry her though.
Chastity has been almost universally prized throughout history by men, is that just a coincidence? It is because women’s virtue was seen as a necessity for a stable society that values family and children as the proper goal of life, not life only based on sexual fulfillment.
Beauty without chastity is a flower without a scent -Proverb
Only the most depraved of men don’t value chastity in their wives. Kraft Von Ebing
Girls everywhere and all you emasculated “men” who are trying so hard to be politically correct at the expense of your masculinity, listen up.
Men and women are equals. This does not mean that they are equal in every single thing they do. For example, men are, on average, physically stronger than women. It is much easier for a semi attractive (even a 6/10) woman to go out and get laid. The same cannot be said about men. Men have to work at it, have some skill (game) and thereby get a woman to sleep with them. It is a LOT harder for an equally attractive man to get women than it is the other way around. This is one of reasons behind why we, as a society, naturally celebrate men who are successful in bedding multiple women; while at the same time shame women who bed multiple men.
Let us briefly visit the topic of virginity from both perspectives. Virginity in a man is not a desirable state or label when it comes to an attribute that the opposite sex wants. This is because he has obviously not been preselected by other women. However, female virginity is not looked at negatively in the least by men. If she looks decent, no man cares if the girl is a virgin or not. In fact, a female virgin is often wanted more.
Now don’t get me wrong, men LOVE sluts. We will never turn down an opportunity to sleep with a good looking slut. Partly because she’s good in bed, partly because it’s sex. But any decently intelligent, self-respecting man will know that it is a terrible idea to emotionally involve himself (i.e. date) with a slutty girl. That would be a very dumb move. Why would any man want to get emotionally involved with a girl who’s had 15+ sexual partners? We would just be setting ourselves up for failure. There are many nice worthy girls out there who don’t have daddy issues and haven’t slept with an entire fraternity house. But, by all means, fvck the brains out of sluts in the meanwhile.
Most guys can detect when a girl is a slut by the first few dates and by what he hears about the girl from other people and from the girl herlself. We put this information together and figure out if she is dating material or not. If not, I like most guys, will still go in for the prize but have no intention of following through with dating the dirty little tart.
To put it simply, a lock that can be opened by many keys is a useless lock and of little worth. But a key that can open many locks is a master key and is valuable.
There are only certain a select few types of girls that can handle a friends with benefits relationship. And those are girls with family issues, daddy issues and just plain sluts. But without these misfits, there wouldn’t be so many happy guys out there who got to bang so many girls. These kinds of girls also happen to be the best in bed and the most adventurous. It goes without saying that dating one of these creatures is a terrible idea. I know quite a few of them and bang them whenever I’m bored, which is often. They know that I’m not interested in dating them and stop pursuing to save face. What a great deal!
Women complain about how unfair it is that men are called studs when they sleep around, yet women get called sluts for the exact same behavior. It’s actually not a double standard though, because both scenarios are pretty different in terms of circumstances and consequences. I can think of at least four crucial differences:
First, sleeping around is easier for women. Regardless of how you feel about promiscuity, we can all agree that a guy who manages to rack up a lot of sexual partners has to have some skills. It’s challenging for men to rack up partners, even for men with low standards. A man needs social intelligence, interpersonal skills, persistence, thick skin, and plain old dumb luck. For women, though, a vagina and a pulse is often enough. Whenever an accomplishment requires absolutely no challenge, no one respects it. It’s just viewed as a lack of self-discipline. People respect those who accomplish challenging feats, while they consider those who overindulge in easily obtained feats as weak, untrustworthy or flawed.
Second, women have potential to do more harm by sleeping around than men do. Say a man sleeps around with a bunch of different women. He’s definitely doing harm to these women if he pretends to be monogamous while sleeping around. He may cause them emotional pain by his promiscuity. He may cause unwanted pregnancy. He may spread VD. When women sleep around, however, they can cause not only all these same ill effects but one additional crucial ill effect: the risk of unknown parentage.
If one guy sleeps around with five women, each of whom is monogamous to him, and they all get pregnant, it’s a safe bet as to who the father is. If you reverse genders and have one woman who sleeps around with five men who are monogamous to her, and she gets pregnant, the father could be any of the five men. And if one of those men is tricked into raising a baby that isn’t his, he’s investing time, money, estate and property to provide for a child that isn’t carrying his DNA into the next generations, a costly mistake from an evolutionary standpoint.
Our two basic primal drives are to survive and to reproduce, and promiscuous women traditionally make it hard for a man to know for sure whether he is truly reproducing or is secretly raising another man’s child. Men stand a lot more to lose from promiscuous women than the other way around. And it’s no picnic for the child to not know who his real father is either. And it’s a mess for the women carrying on the deception as well. Or just look at any random episode of the Maury show if you don’t believe me.
Since the DNA test and the birth control pill didn’t exist until recently, there were no reliable ways to prevent pregnancy or prove parentage for most of human history. For this reason society developed a vested interest in preventing promiscuity among women, and society accomplished this by creating the slut stigma. And even though the creation of birth control and DNA tests have made this less of a risk than the past, longstanding traditions and customs are not easy for society to break so the slut stigma remains.
Third, men have evolutionary reasons to be programmed to sleep around more. A lot of women roll their eyes when they hear that men are “hard-wired” to sleep around. But from an evolutionary standpoint, it makes total sense. If the two primal drives of humans are to survive and to reproduce, nothing leads to maximum reproduction like one man sleeping with multiple women. If one women sleeps with many men in a nine month period, she can only get pregnant just once. Nine months of rampant promiscuity would give the same result as nine months of highly sexed monogamy: one pregnancy. Now if one man sleeps with many women during a nine month period, you can get many pregnancies during that period. The more women he sleeps with, the more possible pregnancies.
So from an evolutionary standpoint, there are concrete advantages to men being promiscuous compared to women being promiscuous. This doesn’t mean that women have evolved to be strictly monogamous. Women have evolved to be somewhat promiscuous too, something men badly underestimate. However they haven’t evolved to be as rampantly promiscuous as men.
Fourth, promiscuity poses more risk to women than to men. A woman has more to lose from choosing bad sex partners than a man does. She’s the one who gets stuck with going through a pregnancy and taking care of a baby alone if she chooses a deadbeat. For this reason, promiscuous women throughout history have historically been viewed as being a vastly more irresponsible risk takers than promiscuous men, who rightly or wrongly could always run away from the consequences of unwanted pregnancies easier than women could.
These four reasons explain why the longstanding tradition came about of men being rewarded for multiple partners while women get socially punished for similar promiscuity. Of course all this is gradually changing, but we’re up against millenia of evolutionary and cultural conditioning here, so don’t expect any dramatic overnight reversals.
Understand that I’m just explaining why the double standard came into existence and not condoning or condemning it. This is not an attempt to pass judgment or be self-righteous in any way. It’s just an explanation of why the two conditions are treated differently.