Note: This article is long. It accounts my history in the Pick Up Artist (PUA) community, my successes and failures as well as the strengths and shortcomings of the movement as a whole. If you have never been associated with PUA’s or know nothing about them, then this article acts more or less as an extended auto-biography of my personal journey and experiences with my development with women. If you have been associated with the PUA scene, then I’d recommend reading it to gain understanding and insight into your own process.
In case you aren’t aware, the whole “dating advice for men” thing is a fairly new concept. In fact, it didn’t even exist until a couple decades ago, and really didn’t begin to become a legitimate industry until this last decade. A splinter of this movement is a community that’s commonly referred to as The Pick Up Artist community.
Beginning as some Usenet forums in the 90′s, it was a group of guys who congregated mainly to share pick up lines, strategies and tips in order to sleep with as many women as possible. The prevailing zeitgeist of the time was that there was a knowable “formula” of seduction — that if a man simply knew the correct components and how to press the right buttons, any woman would sleep with him.
Despite all evidence and common sense to the contrary, the idea caught steam and suddenly thousands of men worldwide were dedicating a massive amount of time, energy and effort into “cracking the code” of a woman’s heart and ultimately, her vagina.
The first man who came around claiming to have done this was none other than the famous Mystery himself, creating for himself quite a reputation, a business and later on, a television show to boot. Many others followed in his wake, including Neil Strauss, the author of the best-selling book “The Game.” From there, the floodgates opened. The book was a hit. And soon the few thousand geeks gathered sharing their “secrets” with one another turned into hundreds of thousands, and then millions. A few message boards turned into hundreds. A multi-million dollar industry was born and still thrives to this day.
And as the landscape of “the community” evolved, so did the content in which was created. With the mainstream success of the book and television show came thousands and thousands of normal, mainstream men. Theory slowly drifted away from the concepts of lines and routines. And the idea of there being a formula for picking up women is slowly being rejected in place of advice more focused on getting in touch with one’s sexuality, becoming more dominant and escalating on women liberally.
But despite these positive developments, the scene, as a whole, can be as toxic as it is helpful. The exact reasons why I’ll get into a minute. Hopefully my own story will help you understand my reasoning.
From Heartbreak to Glory Times
In 2005, I underwent one of the most traumatizing moments of my young 21-year-old life. My girlfriend at the time, my high school sweetheart, suddenly left me for another guy. My confidence level with women at the time hovered around nil, and my role in our relationship could have been more or less described as a doormat. I was painfully insecure and blissfully naive. So as you can imagine, I was absolutely devastated.
But despite the glaring flaws in the relationship, at the time — being as ignorant as most of us are with our first loves — I thought everything was perfect up until then. As usual, the last one to realize that the relationship was completely falling apart was the man in it. If you had asked me the day before, I would have told you this was the girl that I would end up marrying. I couldn’t imagine myself with anyone else, much less being happy with anyone else.
A few months later, it was by chance that I stumbled across “The Game” in my local bookstore. It was sitting atop the “New Releases” table in front of the door. I’ve always been a bookworm, so its title and appearance was immediately… well, seductive. I picked it up, and my first reaction was to feel repulsed. What kind of scumbag would write a book about this stuff? But of course, being human, I couldn’t help but read the first few pages. I had to see for myself how vile and decrepit this guy was, right?
Needless to say, within 5 minutes I was hooked. I bought the book and finished it within 24 hours.
And so began my foray into the netherworld of PUA. Little did I know how far this wormhole would take me.
I devoured 3-4 books, dozens of YouTube videos and hundreds of pages worth of forum posts in a matter of days. The prospect of not only taking control of my love life (where I had recently been so hurt), but finally becoming the “cool” player that I had always wanted to be, and having massive amounts of sex with hot girls — it was all too much to resist.
It took me three months to work up the nerve to approach a girl. I was so nervous that I immediately apologized for talking to her. It took another three months to actually get a girl to go on a date with me. And finally, two more months to get one to actually sleep with me.
For the next year and a half or so, I went out 5-6 nights a week picking up women. I posted on multiple forums and continued to consume a monstrous amount of dating advice and pick up theory. There was something deep down driving me, and although I didn’t realize it at the time, it wasn’t completely healthy.
But my emotional issues aside, I can’t lie: I was having a blast. After a year or so I was dating multiple women, something I had thought completely impossible before. I was more confident than I had ever been. Had more friends than I had ever had. Was getting laid constantly, and developing some awesome social skills to boot.
Being a Deadbeat and Re-evaluation
But as another year of debauchery and irresponsibility went by, not everything was peachy. I was becoming addicted to the validation I was getting, addicted to the thrills and forsaking a lot of priorities in my life for superficial kicks and fun. Having sex, something that most people treat as a normal activity had almost reached a point of obsession to me. To give you an idea of the state I was in, I wrote the following in November of 2007:
A realization hit me — what’s the big deal? I get laid a lot. Congratu-fucking-lations Mark, you’re a normal part of society now. So why are you spending hours a day posting on forums, reading theory, dissecting phone calls from girls with your roommates and going out four nights a week? For the love of God, I live on a fucking couch. I ride my bike all day. I don’t even have my own computer to type these blog posts on. I haven’t done anything that didn’t involve alcohol, a vagina or a television screen in months.
I was a deadbeat. I was broke, had a shitty job I hated, lived on my friend’s futon, and was going to bars and chasing women every night. Now, I take full responsibility for my behavior, but I existed within a community that glorified and reinforced this type of lifestyle. And ultimately, it was making me miserable.
I made an effort to start getting my life together, and I even began to flirt with ditching the whole PUA thing and trying to get along on my own. But it was soon obvious I wasn’t done yet.
The main thing that sucked me back in was the prospect of coaching. At the time (late 2007), the industry was still booming, and the average experience-level of the guys coming in was unbearably low and naive. Through no act of my own other than sharing my stories and antics publicly on forums, I began getting consistent requests to be coached and taught.
The Truth About PUA Coaching
Here’s a dirty truth about being a PUA coach: many guys who take coaching don’t actually want to change. They want to be validated. They want to feel cool and be around someone who they think is cool. They want to unload the responsibility for changing themselves onto someone else.
Rather than hiring a coach to help them progress, to them it’s more of a “rent-a-cool-friend” service. Now, don’t get me wrong, there are a lot of guys who ARE looking to improve, and there are a lot of guys who do have good attitudes and do get a lot out of coaching. I had many students accomplish amazing things with me. But unfortunately, the PUA market and community don’t promote the proper attitudes… in fact, much of the marketing and hype only encourages this sort of pathetic behavior.
The market promotes fanboyism and idol worshiping. It’s sickening. I started to realize this when some of my students turned out to be these brilliant, successful and amazing men. Men who were far more successful in life than I was, and they’d look at me as some sort of demigod. Why? Because I’ve slept with more women? Because when I walk into a club, people actually think I’m cool? It makes absolutely no sense. Looking for advice and guidance is one thing, but this was something else entirely.
A lot of these guys don’t need a pick up instructor. They need a shrink and maybe some sort of anti-anxiety therapy. They need some confidence and a push to put themselves out there more and more. The technical aspect of picking up women really ISN’T that difficult. It really can be explained and taught within a few days. But it must be practiced for a long time, and to have that practice, a guy has to have healthy mindsets and an ability to overcome his fears.
But there’s a side to this that doesn’t get talked about often. There’s a concept in psychology called “The Over-Justification Effect.” From Wikipedia:
“The overjustification effect occurs when an external incentive such as money or prizes decreases a person’s intrinsic motivation to perform a task. According to self-perception theory, people pay more attention to the incentive, and less attention to the enjoyment and satisfaction that they receive from performing the activity. The overall effect is a shift in motivation to extrinsic factors and the undermining of pre-existing intrinsic motivation.
In one of the earliest demonstrations of this effect, researchers promised a group of 3-5 year old children that they would receive a “good player” ribbon for drawing with felt-tipped pens. A second group of children played with the pens and received an unexpected reward (the same ribbon), and a third group was not given a reward. All of the children played with the pens, a typically enjoyable activity for preschoolers. Later, when observed in a free-play setting, the children who received a reward that had been promised to them played significantly less with the felt-tipped pens. The researchers concluded that expected rewards undermine intrinsic motivation in previously enjoyable activities.[1] A replication of this experiment found that rewarding children with certificates and trophies decreased intrinsic interest in playing math games.[2]“
This effect is felt too much by instructors. We receive so much external validation and incentive (money, accolades, fanboys, groupies, etc.) that it distorts that original emotional desire to simply meet people and meet women. I also ran into this in music school when I was a teenager. Believe or not, music and art schools have the highest drop out rates in the world (some pushing 90%). And if you think about it, it makes sense. You’re taking something that people have always naturally been inclined to do (create music or art) and start rewarding them tangibly for it through money, grades, prizes, etc. For me it killed all of the passion of music and I dropped out after a year.
There have been some famous studies done on motivation and what they’ve found is this: external incentives create better performance in rote and logical objectives. But external incentives create WORSE performance in creative objectives. Hence the 90% drop out rate of music/art schools.
Well apply that burn out to social interactions and you get a pretty fucked up effect. When your social interactions are the yardstick that your success is measured on, it absolutely kills the joy of socializing, and depresses the hell out of you in the process. When your emotional intimacy becomes a business asset, it completely undermines your relationships. For a prolonged period of time, this effect can lead one to a very dark place. I met many coaches who had been working in the industry for years and years who were obviously miserable people. It’s why my original business partner quit and got a day job. And it consistently tested my resilience for two years.
But both sides are to blame: the consumers for buying into such a false idol, and the instructors for being seduced by it. On the surface, it’s a life of partying, girls and money. The three things a young guy loves most, right? But in actuality, you spend more time hanging out with other men — awkward, insecure and desperately watching every move of yours and judging you. You’re no longer free to just be yourself. You aren’t allowed to have a night where you just want to drink and relax. You aren’t allowed to pass up a girl because you don’t feel like talking to her. You aren’t allowed to be awkward or unsure of yourself or nervous about anything.
The line between “work” and “play” blurs until the two are completely indistinguishable. Your nights out being social are the same as meeting prospective clients and marketing opportunities. Your prospective clients and marketing opportunities, in turn, want to be your friend and go out with you socially. It’s a psychological mess that drags your emotional stability down with it. Thank god I had a serious girlfriend by that time, otherwise I probably would have lost my sanity.
And here’s the most screwed up part: the beliefs on which the community is founded lead to a constant state of mutual discontent. Since the success of one’s sex and emotional life is the standard of success, thousands of men sit online arguing and comparing things that are 100% subjective. And what invariably happens, is everyone merely projects their own personal discontent onto the perceived failures and shortcomings of others. This guy’s girls aren’t hot enough. That guy only sleeps with 3 girls a month. This guy is only good at day game. That guy just gets by on looks. Everyone is deemed a “fraud” in their own way and for some reason, everyone has tacitly agreed to unrealistic expectations that can be met by none. What the community has become is a cess pool of frustrated children with keyboards.
The Pathologies of the Pick Up Artist
There is absolutely NOTHING normal about what a Pick Up Artist does or why he does it. Dating advice is one thing. Self improvement is another. But quantifying your social and emotional life and then measuring it against others online and for money will murder your soul. Plain and simple.
In the beginning picking up women can be a science, but the better you get, the more it becomes an art. Once guys pass a certain threshold or so, the only thing that differentiates them is style. This style is based mostly on your personality and what types of women you like. Improvement only exists in adapting your objective skill-set to your subjective desires. Any sort of “next step” is actually more of a lateral movement, rather than moving up.
Beyond getting the first couple lays, quantifying “game” in any sense approaches the impossible — completely subjective and any arguments about skill-levels, quality, consistency, or styles is arguing past one another — like claiming heavy metal is better than rap just because… well, just because.
Over the years, I’ve dated women that other guys think are hideous. I’ve dated women that guys who don’t know me literally come up to me in bars and give me high fives when she’s not looking. There are a lot of women that most guys consider “hot” that I have absolutely no interest in, and vice-versa.
What I’m getting at, is once you become consistent, the only real metric for “success” is your own satisfaction. We’re always playing a numbers game, and once you get your % up to 1/10 or above, really any objective measure of skill kind of becomes pointless.
Once your % passes that magic threshold, it’s really just a matter of how much time and effort you’re willing to dump into your sex life. Some of us dump a lot of time and effort. Most don’t.
For this reason, the idea of “who is the best?” Or who can close the most consistently, or who has the best club game, the best day game, etc. — it’s a bunch of nonsense and as my friend Doc used to say, “Dick crack.” It gets a bunch of competitive and horny guys and their egos excited. But at the end of the day, whether I can lay a girl in 50 minutes and you need two dates is pointless. If my girl has a 9 body and a 5 face and yours has a 6 body and 8 face is pointless.
You’re getting sucked into the validation trap, which turns into a very dark place if you stay there long enough.
The fact is, what is perceived as “the community,” is merely a loud minority. An elitist and somewhat pathological minority.
You don’t end up in the Pick Up Artist community unless you are incredibly unhappy or unsatisfied about something. It may be conscious, it may be unconscious. It may be short-term, or it may be deep-seated and long-term. But the fact is, the community acts for a lot of men as a diversion or scapegoat from dealing with their real issues — their emotional issues.
We’re men, we’re experts at rationalizing painful feelings away — we hate dealing with them. For a lot of men, all these eBooks and audio courses merely act as rationalizations — a way to escape for a little bit longer, a way to logically solve the unsolvable. Emotions aren’t quantifiable or objective, so these men band together in attempt to quantify and objectify their emotional lives together, under the auspices of “improvement.”
And by their shared metrics, improve they do. “I had my first SNL.” “I banged my first 9 last night.” Etc. But there’s no yardstick for happiness, fulfillment, meaning or significance. This may sound lame and campy, but when you’ve met as many miserable guys with 100+ lays as I have, you may take it seriously.
Some of them forget… they forget that there’s a whole life to these interactions behind the objectification and quantification. They enter the validation trap — where a cocaine-addicted stripper has more value than a Plain Jane with a Ph.D, where a threesome has more value than an engagement ring, where things like acne scars or B-cup tits suddenly become deal-breakers in a relationship.
The PUA community at large is a bubble — it has a propensity to become elitist and to project its own desires and intentions onto everyone else.
They glorify their goals, try to deduce other’s actions and desires into base sexual needs, scoff at guys who don’t get into it as “AFC’s” and look down upon newbies who give up and leave as quitters and men who aren’t “man enough” to persevere the hundreds of rejections just to get their dick wet more often. Yet most guys are pretty damn content with a couple nice girls and a plain-Jane girlfriend who loves them.
Destroying My Demons
As I’ve been saying since 2006, and it’s not a big revelation anymore, but PUA is self-help in disguise. PUA’s can applaud themselves for their social development, their amazing relationships and conquests — but the truth is that they all arrive there because something was/is wrong. And there’s nothing to get all high and mighty about.
It takes a certain kind of man to find the objectification of his emotional life appealing. It takes a certain kind of man to become addicted to the validation of receiving love and affection from women.
The vast, vast majority of men who come to this stuff are the “one and done” crowd. In fact, you who are reading this, chances are you’re one of them too. You’re here because you’re nervous about this or that. You have a date coming up. There’s a girl in your class you think is cute, but you don’t know what to say. You’re in the middle of a dry spell and want to get out. You come here for a little simple advice, maybe a little motivation. You go out and get the date you want, the girlfriend you want, approach the girl you want to approach… and then you’re done.
But there’s a loud minority who for them it’s something more.
Something deep down in their emotional fabric drives them much further. They excitedly accept the objectification and relish in the validation. I did. And I see other guys do it too. And really what it is is their way of sorting through their emotional baggage. Some guys it takes 10-15 women. Some it takes 50-100. Some guys are damaged too deeply and never get out. But the truth remains: you don’t sell your soul to the devil unless part of you is already a little dead inside.
I am not an exception, just another casualty. I wrote this in August of 2008:
I had kind of a disconcerting experience tonight. I hung out with some female friends that I’ve known for a long time. And no matter what we talked about, we seemed to always end up back on topics of my sex life, my sexcapades, and in particalar, the threesomes that I’ve had recently.
This actually started to bug me because these are friends I haven’t hung out to any significant degree in about a year, and I felt like we should talk about something more substantial than the vaginas in which I had been sticking my penis. But I realized two things. First of all, I had little else to talk about from the last year and also that my friendships with these girls had ALWAYS largely consisted of me sharing my sexscapades with them. I didn’t realize this until one point when I said, “OK, enough about my sex life, let’s talk about something more interesting.” One of my old friends replied, “But Mark, we ALWAYS talk about your sex life.”
I became horrified. Had my “friendship” with these girls merely consisted of me obsessing over my sexuality with them? Had our friendship just been a repository for me to validate myself — that I’m attractive, that women have sex with me, and that other women like it that women have sex with me?
Sadly, it had.
Your first reaction to this may be, “Shit, I wish I had that problem…” but remember this article and this quote. Because one day you may find yourself there, and you may find yourself as disconcerted as I was.
Whenever I talk about this, most men immediately ask me, “What emotional realities are we running from? What baggage are you talking about? I’m normal, it’s all these other guys who are crazy.”
This is actually an easier question than it may seem. It’s going to be different for every guy, but by FAR the most common deep emotional problems and fears that I come across in the PUA crowd are: ex-girlfriend or ex-wife that broke their heart and/or ruined them, divorced or absent parents, death of a loved one, death of a parent, or just repeated emotional beat-downs growing up — whether it be growing up in the projects, being verbally abused by girls your entire childhood for being fat, etc., etc.
A lot of guys can relate to at least one of the above. I know I can.
It’s painful to go back and deal with a lot of that. Some of it REALLY painful. And we don’t do it. We put it off for years. I came to PUA and was motivated primarily by my ex-girlfriend of four years cheating on me and leaving me. That fucking hurt. I thought I got over it, but I didn’t get over it for years. And when I looked deeper, I just realized that that had just been irritating a deeper wound stemming from my divorced parents and family situation growing up. That one STILL hurts. And I think the circumstances in which I grew up in is the largest reason why I’ve dedicated so much time, effort, thought and emotion to picking up women.
It’s not normal. And I accept that.
I look at myself and I realize now that underneath it all, there was a need for intimacy and love. It was when I finally buckled down and committed to a girl and started a new relationship that was actually healthy and happy, that finally showed me that. Like everyone else on this planet, I’m searching for intimacy and love, I’m just wired in such a way that it’s hard for me to get to that point with a woman. That’s what drives me. Just like I think deep down that’s what drives most of these guys. For whatever reason, we need to traverse some complex and damaged emotional landscape to get there though. And PUA has been an avenue for some of us to do that.
Regardless, I choose to not identify with the Pick Up Artist moniker any longer. The reasons are the two I listed above: I refuse to objectify my social interactions and love life, and I refuse to judge my personal success or have others judge my personal success based on my social and emotional life.
But not only do I choose to continue teaching and coaching, but I believe I can teach and coach from a much healthier and far more successful place this way.
If you were or are part of the PUA community, I encourage you to shed the unhealthy associations that come with it. This site is specifically designed to give dating and seduction advice and direction in a healthy manner: focusing on personal satisfaction and fulfillment with all of your sexual relationships, rather than racking up numbers or conquests, winning the admiration of your peers or attempting to be the “coolest” guy you know.
Personally, I think the PUA thing is a fad. I think in 10 years, we’ll look back and think of it as one of those silly things we did in the 2000′s, kind of like big hair in the 80′s, or dial-up modems in the 90′s. The mindsets the community is based upon are self-defeating, and only the truly damaged or self-loathing would continue to subscribe to them for a whole lifetime.
Dating advice for men, on the other hand, is only growing and will continue to grow. It’s going to continue to expand and become more inclusive and more mainstream. I think everything that’s currently Pick Up Artist related will either transition to a more mainstream audience or fade into relative obscurity. It will run its course, just like the men who make up its ranks will run theirs.
To Be Fair… In Hindsight
I know I’ve been pretty harsh on the whole Pick Up Artist thing in this article. And a lot of this probably stems from my bitterness and being too close to it for too long. But I must give credit where credit is due:
- I would not be nearly as socially confident or competent today, if it weren’t for the PUA community.
- There are HUNDREDS of amazing experiences and dozens of amazing women I would have missed out on, had I not picked up that book on that fateful day.
- Through sheer force and confrontation, I’ve had to face many of my own emotional issues and overcome them in a short period of time — issues I probably would have gone half a lifetime being otherwise oblivious to.
- And of course, I made some pretty cool friends and met some interesting people. Without whom, I wouldn’t be who I am today.
In the end, I suppose this article should be taken as a cautionary tale. There’s a lot to gain from that whole movement, but there’s also a lot that you can get trapped in and sucked under by. A friend of mine put it perfectly when he said, “You can judge a self-help movement by how many people leave it. If people are leaving it, then it’s doing something right.” Well, many people leave the PUA community, so it must be doing something right.
Just make sure you’re one of the ones who leaves.
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Yea, having sex is the rule not the exception had an impact on me. I talked about that part with Awesome when I first read the post. It’s a great statement, and this is a great post.
I came to the same conclusion.
For the first 28 years of my life I’d had way below average success with women. Now I have way above average success. It balanced out and I feel that continuing that way would be over-compensating.
Getting laid really isn’t the big deal I used to think it was. It’s so easy! Show up, get the girl to show up, hang out, have sex.
The more interesting challenge is getting girls you want to spend time with after, or even have a family with. Or, for me right now, finding a nice girl who I enjoy being with, who is low maintainence and will support my work/success goals.
So at the moment I’m seeing girls strictly one at a time. In between there will be periods where I see many girls once or twice, until one stands out amongst the others.
It’s just a case of listening to your deepest purpose. If you’ve had less success, then it’s really important to get that part of your life handled… but once you have, move on.
Wow, your timing is uncanny. Have you read my recent FR/LR? I’m going through a very similar point.
Do you mind if I cross-post this into my blog?
Some would murder to have this type of a problem. Thanks for sharing all the same. I will reflect on it.
Harold
I wish I had that problem.
but for me its frustrating not getting results.I’m still going out though. I heard ciaran stop PU cause of somthing like this.
I glad you posted some stuff on this since I personally want women in my life.
So, what now? I mean I don’t know who you are or anything, but isn’t this what you do for a living? What do you think the solution is to this “problem”?
Wow man, this is exactly a phase I’m going through. EXACTLY. I took like a 5 week break from going out at night prior to halloween to try and correct this, doing exclusively day game. I think it helped a little, but we’ll see. It’s hard to know for sure because last weekend was such a unique weekend out being that it was halloween.
I think that this talk (short) on motivation by Dan Pink is also interesting:
http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pink_on_motivation.html
He talks about the effects of rewards on intrinsic motivation. In short he says that rewards are actually good for *mechanical* tasks, but for the ones that require creativity (and PU is in part an art right?) experiments shows significant lower levels of motivation.
Thank you for sharing this Entropy!
This got me thinking.
So enjoyment drops when focussing on the rewards.
What about effectiveness. Does extrensic motivation have an effect on effectiveness?
I’m totally going through this. If I’m not feeling a connection within like 10 minutes or something and it’s not progressing I am half-way leaving it on the table. Unless she’s a particular flavor I haven’t tried, this will keep me interested longer.
Great post and observation.
Brad P seems to be expressing a similar sentiment on his blog. Of 9-2-09
http://bradp.com/finding-girls-value
I find it interesting that the word “ENJOY” and its derivates, do not seem to be a part of his vocabulary.
I am doing work on my internal game. In the process, I was given “The New Psyco-Cybernetics” by Maxwell Maltz, M.D. Interesting that you would post your observation a few days after I read this, p 175 – Emptiness _ “ . . . someone who had been successful . . . Along the way, they lost their capacity to ENJOY. And when you have lost the capacity to enjoy, no amount of wealth OR anything else can bring success on …” He goes on “. . . Those in whom the capacity to enjoy IS DEAD can find no enjoyment in nothing . . . No goal is worth working for. Life is a terrible bore. Nothing is worthwhile. “ Ponder the feeling of what he says next: “ You can see these people by the HUNDREDS night after night knocking themselves out in night clubs TRYING to convince themselves they are enjoying it . . . Entangled in a whirl of parties, hoping to find enjoyment, always finding an empty shell. “
He says “The truth is that joy IS an accomplishment of CREATIVE FUNCTION, of CREATIVE GOAL STRIVING. . . . “Life becomes worthwhile when you have worthwhile goals. . . . Emptiness is a SYMPTOM that you are not living creatively. _ _ You either have no goal that is important enough to you, OR you are not using your talents and efforts in striving toward an important goal. . . “ One of his conclusions is “aliveness is based on constantly setting NEW goals, AND THEN, moving up steps of a ladder of learning in order to effectively pursue them. P177, “ Only striving for goals that are important to you – NOT AS STATUS SYMBOLS, but are consistent with your own _ DEEP INNER WANTS _ is healthful. . . “
This happen to me. I achieved my goals, thank God. I have regrets over not amping up, or take the time to ENJOY each milestone and ENJOY attaining each goal along the way. When I got to the top, I did not find new, worthwhile goals, to attain. Instead, I went into a cave of contentment, not realizing the slippery slope of joyless, empty living _ _ or maybe it was a slope of slow death.
Hello Knight,
Brad P describes very well the symptoms, but offers no real sollution at my opinion.
Brad P writes: “aliveness is based on constantly setting NEW goals, AND THEN, moving up steps of a ladder of learning in order to effectively pursue them”
I think Entropy just pointed out with this article that it’s not really the LACK of motivation that kills the hunger, but THE TYPE of motivation (internat versus external).
So instead of triggering again the result orientated mind set (as Brad P. suggests), I on the contrary deliberatly brake down the bricks that I constructed, and start all over again.
Results loose their importance when you know how to focus on wellness.
It requires a lot of courage and braveness to let go something you like or cherish.
How else can we keep our curiosity working for us?
I’m curous to read some of you guy’s suggestions.
As an example I would like you to try out the following experience-exercise: next time you listen to your mp3 player, songs that you know already and to which you got used to, try to image that you are Mozart or try to feel what Mozart would feel when he would discover the new modern tunes of music we now fabric in the 21th century.
Mozart was a great musician and composer. A tremendous artist. A real genious. But he was for sure not the last one, as there was still so much to discover.
Motivation comes from emotion, so said Entropy during his seminar in Brussels.
But where to get the emotions? That’s the real question.
Or how to handle the emotions? Another tough one right?
Maybe you guys thinks I’m speaking jbrrrisch now.
If so, remind that in the land of the blind …. The one eyed man is king.
Hope you guys see my point.
Cruise
Although I can relate to BradP’s problem, I think he’s going about it the wrong way. The idea that life fulfillment comes from creating/accomplishing goals definitely sounds like something that came from a self-help book written in the 50′s. But in the case of pick up, I think it’s completely counter-productive.
You’re basically fighting the burn-out of chasing hotter and hotter girls for four years by… chasing hotter and hotter girls. Makes no sense to me.
The two things that kind of kill it for me are: 1) Deep comfort game — finding and appreciating something amazing in every woman I talk to and 2) letting go and relaxing. Stop the extrinsic motivation so that the intrinsic motivation can return.
Nothing against BradP, I fucking love the guy and his work, but it sounds like he’s still caught in the hamster wheel of the community and “higher quality girls.” Finding a girl that a) is hot, b) is really smart and cool and c) won’t embarrass you in a club, isn’t THAT hard to find. But being with them doesn’t come from elevating your pick up skills further, but actually being able to drop them and open yourself up. Otherwise, you’re always going to fall into this state of wanting more… or pushing your skill-set further… or whatever… and back on the hamster wheel.
My issue is the opposite. Not only did I get off the hamster wheel, but I don’t want to fucking move, period. But my guess is that my intrinsic motivation will slowly come out (I just kind of need to detach myself from all of this a bit) and his will continue to whither.
It always impresses me big-time the coaches who have been in this for 5, 6, 7 years, how they manage to still be motivated. I really don’t get it. I mean, a lot of them that I’ve met are motivated by completely screwed up and unhealthy things, but still… it blows my mind. I’ve only been coaching 2 years, and my emotional motivation is all screwed up.
Leave the community and become a celibate monk at the Shaolin Temple, grasshoppa.
fireybabe
“The trick to happiness is a bad memory”
South Boston, Massachusetts
Hey Entropy : I had similar thinking about Brad P that you had wrt “he’s still caught in the hamster wheel of the community and “higher quality girls.”” _ _ The criteria he listed for himself sounded like a more detailed list of categories he puts his PU’s into; F_ _ K Buddy Relationship, Three Some Relationships, ONS. Either that, or he was being whiney, and just venting. He may actually understand the pain, you described having, in the event a LTR breaks up, and prefers to avoid that, finding less pain, OR, MORE ENJOYMENT on the hamster wheel. I also think he is on a different track. I think he is going to update the Playboy – Hef/ Penthouse- Guccione thing. When your able to attract a lot of girls, and want to play with them, very LTR’s do not seem to work. Hef married twice and 4 ? Children, I do not know about Guccione. I think Brad P is moving in that direction as he has a mansion in LA set up. I think the issue is how his venture becomes in structure, Playboy OR Penthouse.
I am surprised that you were a music major. I was surprised that Brad P was not.
I think you are maturating and experiencing personal growth on a much different path.
Creativity, not be confused with rewards for behavior:
The Over Justification Effect research seem to be about rewarding ENJOYABLE behavior, more so then rewarding creativity. I think the key word missed is “ . . . previously enjoyable activities”. Do The felt pens suggest creativity ? I think this particular research seems to suggests that enjoyment is a present moment experience that has a finite time of existence, or manifestation. It also seems to suggest that the same reward losses its motivating effect for same enjoyable behaviors. Possibly a different reward that the child REALLY internally desired would have produced a different outcome.
Mentioning Rewards:
For most males (80/20 N/A) , the reward of orgasm based upon minimal behaviors to achieve its ENJOYMENT to Intense Pleasure, is much less complex, and in most events, shorter experienced for females. How much external motivation is really needed in order for males to enjoy this behavior. Can it be construed as a reward as well? How much external motivation is really needed in order for females to enjoy the reward of orgasm? For those females that do orgasm (80/20 applies), how much more time, more variety, and letting go of perceived fears and anxieties is necessary for females to achieve its ENJOYMENT to Intense Pleasure. Do females perceive orgasm as a reward as something they deserve ONLY after all the internal challenges and criteria they set up to have sex in the first place _ are met?
Creativity:
Dr. Maltz writes that creativity is more of a function of self image/ Identity. Creativity is better left as a non-conscious process. He presents good evidence that conscious processes can actually impede creativity. This how the process of having a goal in mind, but no expectations of [the point in time an] outcome [will occur], is so effective in Pick up. He writes that one who attains connection with their self image THEN has the ability to set appropriate goals. He writes that once goals are achieved, new ones are needed to be set to prevent static being, and NOT move socially backward. The conscious process is one of setting goals, or problem(s) to be resolved AND data collection aka learning.
It may not feel like it, but your in a good spot.When I have long states of confusion, it motivates me to sort out the confusion into order. I usually go too fast to end the terribl feelings. I think Dr. Meltz would recommend taking your time to gather all the information you possibly can to determine a life style that is going to consistent AND congruent with the identities you may be contemplating a decision on. While your in the process of doing that, creativity requires conscious distraction, in a way that allows the unconscious to do its magic. Maybe a few good women and, or men, to go play with some felt pens, or whatever, until your “AHHHH HAAAAA” decision becomes made.
“We enter the validation trap — where a cocaine-addicted stripper has more value than a Plain Jane with a Ph.D, where a threesome has more value than an engagement ring, where things like acne scars or B-cup tits suddenly become deal-breakers in a relationship.”
Man this is absolute brilliance!
I tend to live my life by a simple law: There are people who get it and people who don’t, be one of the ones who gets it.”
You nailed it with this paragraph man!
nice dude, very nice.
I wonder what the trigger was for this post, Entropy. Excellent points!
I personally would like to write a post on my own blog on the marketing and sales tactics some PUAs over-use. This forms part of the trap, I believe.
I also wonder if there’s any way of measuring how satisfied PUA clients are. You hint that some guys buy an ebook or CD package, then meet their gal, and they go off into the sunset. Are they satisfied or settling for less? Hard to know.
<>
Could you expand on this, perhaps in a future post?
There’s the validation trap, and the other trap is to internalise some beliefs that some ‘expert’ holds as being gospel. I’ll give an example: when I did an RSD Bootcamp, the instructor told us that you need to do 1000 approaches MINIMUM before you get good at this. It was only until recently I realised how unhealthy this is, on so many levels (I can expand on this if you wish).
You write that we can lose perspective – but it can be hard at times to keep perspective of what’s happening.
ps when I asked you to expand on something, it was regarding this:
“You’re getting sucked into the validation trap, which turns into a very dark place if you stay there long enough.”
(somehow the quote was lost above)
“Are they satisfied or settling for less? Hard to know. ”
Can it not be both?
And is there anything wrong with it being both?
A great post.. Very nice work on it and wonderful points.
Well…. I’ve met a LOT of married people that are unhappy, don’t have sex anymore and/or stay together just because they know each other for a long time and have kids but they really don’t love each other anymore. And they are scared shitless to start over. There is no simple way to look at human emotional relationships, getting married and having kids is the “right” thing to do? I’ve met guys that get married with the first girl that pay attetion to them, because they have no options and they don’t have the courage to make the effort to improve their dating lives. They just settle down because it is easy and that’s what they are “supposed to do”. But what would you do if you have the skills to have sex with different women becuase you want to? How about if your life is so fulfilling that you don’t need that SIGNIFICANT OTHER, because after all the honey moon phase is gonna fade and you are gonna have to deal with a woman with her flaws, her interests that don’t match yours and totally different needs. And I’m not mentioning that we as men never gonna be sexually satisfied, we always think that the grass is greener on the other side. We are animals trying to follow society rules. Looking validation for guys and girls is the answer? I don’t think so, but there is no easy answer to this topic. Women and men are so different……
Leo: You bring up great points, but I’d argue that marriage and PUA don’t really cross-over at all. Relationship management is such a massive topic that goes untouched in the PUA community, I don’t think you can compare the two.
I like those points Leo. From observing my family, famiy friends, society, its clear marriage doesnt ‘work’ these days. Maybe it never worked. It was just that before, it was unacceptable to get a divorce. Perhaps there were some pros to this, that married couples would be forced to try and work their differences out and become closer as a result. I doubt it though.
As a 20yr old, I dont think I could get married. Especially in this period, where marriage doesnt seem to work anymore. Divorce. Kids. Child support. It all seems like such a mess. I see so many peoples lives consumed in all these issues. I for one, dont want to have kids unless I am very confident about a lot of things. Parents pass on their fuck ups on to the kids. Unless I beleive fully that I have what it takes to bring a kid up then Im hesitant. The last thing I can see myself doing right now or in the distant future is getting married to be honest. But then I guess most people say that. Perhaps a lot of us need marriege to gain some sort of security. Perhaps marriage is a more long term form of validation.
As for dating/relationships. Im pretty apathetic towards all that right now. Ultimately I wish I had a deeper desire for it all, but right now, Im really not interested. The way all males and females do everything they can for sex. Its kind of depressing really.
”Oh what a rat race..to see the human race..Its a disgrace..” to quote Bob Marley.
Hey Entropy,
great article, provides lots of food for thought.
you wrote:
–
But the fact is, the community acts for a lot of us as a diversion or scapegoat from dealing with our real issues — our emotional issues
[...]
because they basically want something that can’t be sold [...] to never have to face those emotions… to continue running
–
Could you expand a little bit more on that, please?
What kind of emotions/issues do you mean? Fear to completly open up to another person? Fear of falling in love? Fear of getting hurt? Or more like lack of maturity?
Is it always one out of a few issues or are there as many different issues as there are guys dealing with them?
PBS has a TV series about emotions called: This Emotional Life, at some point in the program a scientist talk about marriage and how hard it is to stay together, about the role of the hormone called oxytocin that makes you feel that sensation of being in a honey moon and how this sensation fades after some period of time. They even interview a black couple that goes to counseling to try to save their marriage. It is very interesting to see how the woman acts like a bitch toward his husband. Jesus Christ! I wouldn’t be able to tolerate a woman like that. Eventually the guy cheat on her. Definitely relationships are not easy and definitely you don’t need to be a scientist to see how hard it is to make it work. They even provide some data to make it clear. That scientist was VERY honest about it.
There are so many factors acting in our decision of staying together with somebody else that it is hard to control it. Just to mention one factor, when I date women in their 30s I can easily see how desperate and scared they are because they know they don’t have too much time to make themselves attractive anymore. They want to get married ASAP, they want to have kids, buy a house, etc. I just run away, they really don’t love me, they just want to get married an have kids, their time is short and they know it very well. Of course these women don’t play hard to get too much, because they know they can’t do it. It’s totally diifferent with hot young women, they think that they can play hard to get forever because they can have so many suitors that it doesn’t matter if they don’t date you, there are more out there. Of course I think in the same way, there are more women out there. Good luck with your love life guys, hahaha. There’s no easy answer to this topic.
“the honey moon phase is gonna fade ” NOT NECESSARILY SO
“we as men never gonna be sexually satisfied,” and neither is this.
We have been together for eight years, no children though and never will, and we just keep getting better and better, in all ways, and this includes sexually as well.
When two people have an intensely deep, passionate, and spiritual connection, sex goes to another level entirely, far more intense, more connected, more everything, and the orgasms….through the roof and beyond.
Not all women are bitches, and not all men are assholes.
I couldn’t agree more
You’z a one bad mutha fucka entropy! Preach it brotha!
Excellent article, Entropy! Prague and Leo, I also liked your comments.
This is all about “filling the bucket with a hole in it”: Like many try with so many other things in life, some attempt to fill their broken buckets with sexual validation.
I didn’t understand this: “… – continuing to escape the emotional realities.”
Could you elaborate?
Thanks for this post Entropy, very thought provoking, After going at this pickup stuff very hard for over 8 months, I’m really not any happier. I’ve had some lays, which would have never happened without the PUA community, but in the end I still am unhappy. Still looking for that next beautiful woman to satisfy me.
Escaping emotional reality – thats exactly what I do when I read these, or any other article on pickup. They make me feel like I can control girls, which makes me feel good. But I always realize that isnt true, and I’m stuck just being myself, whom I really don’t like.
Not really sure what the answer is in life to feeling better, but I’m realizing it isn’t pickup.
As someone who never writes in forums, or responds to anything really, thanks for writing this.
Your brilliant insights and reflections on the “state of the PUA-nation” is right on the mark!
The struggle for a girl worth fighting for continues…
damn you are a good writer!
“Leo: You bring up great points, but I’d argue that marriage and PUA don’t really cross-over at all. Relationship management is such a massive topic that goes untouched in the PUA community, I don’t think you can compare the two”
That’s why I talk about marriage, ’cause PU It’s just about getting laid and it doesn’t explain anything about relationships. And you really gonna need SKILLS when you get married with a woman. When you live in the same house with her. When you have to see her EVERY day. When you wake up with her and go to bed with her. I’d say that routine is the biggest enemy in marriage, you get bored of the same thing day after day, and as I say before men and women are very different. Other kind of relationships are really easy to handle. Just when you have to LIVE with your spouse (or partner) in the same house you see how difficult it is to keep the relationship going. Everything matters: money, sex, mood, interests, hornyness, who’s in control of the realtionship, how you compromise, kids, temptation, etc. Other kind of relationships are extremely easy. And nobody has a manual to know how to handle a marriage.
Awesome article. Period.
Awesome post, Entropy.
Just one thing about your realization: normal people probably don’t get laid “a lot”. If that was true, the seduction community wouldn’t exist.
I mean, I’m guessing that not everyone who gets into PUA is a 25-year-old virgin. From what I read in the game, some guys simply join the community because they want more “options” (Strauss was probably trying to say that they want either more ass or better ass).
I’m still a virgin. But here’s the thing. As a kid, I always felt like an outcast. The first girl I liked in high school stopped talking to me because I confessed to in an awkward way. I discovered DD’s cocky and funny stuff when i was 16. One day, I just said some outrageous thing to this girl in class, and she was hooked. She was one of the alpha females of the school. I was still that loner that had only a few friends. I literally then knew that looks didn’t matter that much, because i was still a nerd then. I had her chasing me, for years. She asked me out to prom, and i said I’ll think about it. Although I acted “cool” around her, I was very deeply scared of the situation. This girl likes me, and i only said a few words!!! I didn’t do anything with this girl. I graduated high school, and in my year book, I left no comments. I didn’t even have a baby picture. I didn’t think i was that important at all.
College came, and the same pattern started to repeat itself. This was the land of opportunities. Again, i said a few words, and i had this girl chasing me throughout my college years! But I’d never talk to her, I’d never reveal myself. She was social, and i felt like if i revealed myself, she would stop liking me. I was too scared to put myself out there, and because of this, my social skills never improved. I had a string of other girls that liked me, but I’d do the same thing. Once they started liking me, I would ignore them. I spent my WHOLE time in the library, “studying”. I come from a culture where studying to get good marks is important, so I’d use that excuse to not talk to people. I graduated college without having built a social circle, or doing anything fun. I still didn’t have a girlfriend, even though I had so many opportunities, because you know what? “Meh, girls are easy, so why bother?” And you know what the fucked up thing was? Because the girl in high school was very hot compared to the girls that liked me, I’d also use the excuse “meh, she’s not that hot, i can do better”.
University started, I went to frosh and instead of having fun, I tried to put up with fake attitude i learned from pua. First year, I started failing my courses. I fell into depression. My family was worried about me. I read some Steve Pavlina stuff, and told myself “hey I should pursue my passion and make lots of money!” So I kept spitting out bullshit like I’m going to drop out of engineering (because there are no girls anyway right? and i don’t want to be a nerd, engineers can’t get girls) from a prestigious university to pursue “my dreams”. But my parents kept telling me: STAY, STAY, and STAY STOP DREAMING. Recently, I thought about my situation more thoroughly. I realized that engineering is hard; you NEED to have friends and connections to succeed. So I started talking to people more. (I thought I was an “introvert” so I didn’t talk much”). I started revealing myself to people. Then, I met this girl. I told her my situation, and she was very agreeable and she said she went through the same thing (failed classes, different environment etc. etc., thought she wasted her college days). We talked and talked. For the first time in ages, I laughed and felt happy, all just because I started talking to people. A few days before this event, I tried going to a bar to some dudes bday to be more “social”. You know what i did? I sat there, analyzing everything. (He’s the alpha male, hmm he has poor posture) I DIDNT TALK TO ANYONE. I JUST SAT THERE. I WAS WEIRD. I realized it then. But back then, I’d tell myself meh this is JUST NOT ME. I’m not a party animal, when clearly there was an emotional problem.
I thought that it was impossible to be friends with girls. I avoided befriending girls. I simply avoided people. For the last few years, I was extremely lonely, and negative. If I just talked and acted normally, my life would’ve been much richer, I would’ve had a girlfriend and lost my virginity already. I would’ve had a social circle; I would’ve of experienced the joys of friendships. But pua kind of fucked up my mindset, which was already fucked up. I’m tall, and I’ve been told that I’m good looking. Yet my mindset was so fucked up, that i said, “good looks don’t matter, I can’t date now I’m not ready, i have to develop myself before i start dating”. Looking back, I can say that I acted VERY FUCKING WEIRD. All i had to do was start talking to people and act more normally!!!
After talking to this girl, I found myself able to actually start studying and absorb material. When you’re having fun, it doesn’t even matter if you’re in a tough program like engineering!! But when you’re all alone, it seems impossible. I still don’t have a social circle, but I know now that I’ll have to develop one. I thought I wanted to bang a lot of chicks, but all I wanted to do was fit in.
On the brightside, PUA stuff motivated me to dress A LOT better. It motivated me to read a lot of books on body language and learn more about women in general. I read a lot of evolutionary psychology and all that stuff (although educational, it only furthered my depression). I realized that there are an abundance of girls out there. I worked on myself, and got rid of a lot of that “nice guy” mindset that let people step on me back then. PUA did teach me a lot of things, but it also fucked me up even more at the same time.
I still lack social skills. I do very well on 1 on 1 conversation, but I am extremely quiet in groups. Social events don’t terrify me as much anymore, but they still make me very uncomfortable. I recently started talking to girls, and I realized that I say some pretty awkward and scary things at times. Not calibrated at all. Do I regret discovering PUA? No, not at all! If you come from a positive mindset, this stuff will be very useful. But when you come from a place where you’re really insecure, this stuff will destroy you completely.
Wow Mark… epic post. I’m impressed, not only by your own degree of self awareness, but by the eloquence of your writing. It’s very real, very accessible, very… gritty, I guess. I’m sure I’m not the only one who thinks you should turn this post into a book.
I wish I could disagree with you about portions of this post, but I can’t. It’s just way too in line with everything I’ve experienced myself, from the journey to the disillusionment, to the coaching.
Great piece on the overjustification effect, by the way. I didn’t realize there was a term for it. In Rocky III, the theme centered around how Rocky lost his drive, his passion for the sport because he became enamored by the lights and glitz. As the soundtrack (“Eye of the Tiger”) so eloquently pointed out, “you changed your passion for glory.” I think at one point we both experienced that in this community as well.
Amazing piece overall. Bravo.
P.S. I’m pretty sure RJ was the first guy to claim he had the formula
DJ Fuji
does it kind of mess with anyones mind when someone says that after a year of pua they get laid a lot? or getting laid is easy? It’s not easy at all for some people. especially if they are deformed or something.
You shouldn’t measure yourself against others. Just like some people are born talented at basketball, some people are born talented with interacting with people.
Just focus on yourself. Everyone’s journey is different. There’s no better or worse.
If there’s one thing that should be taken from this article, it’s this: in love and with women there’s no better or worse. Just happy and unhappy.
Thank you Mark for this post. I’ve come to nearly the same conclusions myself.
[Cut: deleted a long comment]
I really needed a fresh motivation.
Hey Mark,
Clark suggested that I look up on you and see how you are doing. This is a fantastic post and really captures a lot of my own feelings that I had being an instructor and being part of the community in general. It’s great to see that you are doing well. I wish you the best!
-EC
I think pickup is just opening and building attraction. It’s ultimately pretty useless for a relationship except to see whether a girl is interested, and keep her intrigued. It’s basically physical level stuff. I think a lot of people (maybe 98%) interpret this stuff, kissing, sex, affection, having someone to hang out with, as love, but it has nothing to do with love. This is why it causes them so much pain, because they’re associating something that’s self enjoyment (sex), with something deep and spiritual (love). Maybe girls like to call it relationships to keep from feeling slutty, or guys commit to this because they like the girl, or there is mutual convenience or whatever. But it’s not love!
I’m agnostic but I think love is actually defined as many religions say it is, a spiritual quality. It’s the quality of being selfless and caring for another, patient, not angry, not proud, or based on physical appearance, wealth, popularity. The people who believe love is emotions, as soon as happiness fades a little, they will call it quits. But love for your children doesn’t go away just because they cause you some hardship. Love is commitment, perseverance.
The problem is most people confuse what is entirely superficial, their “relationships” of convenience, with love. And few people are quality, and wish to have the commitment to love. Like for a long time I’d say what I want from a girl, they’d usually completely flip out, I’d say “Oh I have a 17-18th century definition of love that I got from reading a lot of poetry, I look for lifelong commitment, like my grandparents’ generation.” What modern, sexually self-assured girl wants such a trap and lack of variety and fidelity to one person? She wants to have a “relationship” and then whenever it is inconvenient ditch it for another “relationship.” Modern Americans are very scared of commitment.
I don’t think I have superstitious beliefs, and indeed, I’m happy to date around, have fun, while in transition in my life and not commit to any one girl. But that doesn’t mean it’s not worth having love.
Also I think a lot of PUAs misunderstand are emotionally damaged and actually afraid of women. The reason is, if you’re not afraid of women and haven’t been hurt by them in the past, when you find someone really great, you naturally want to have a LTR with her, since she’s the total package. A lot of my friends into PUA are nerds trying to “get back” on women for picking on them or ignoring them during high school and college.
Also alpha in reality is a guy who has enough resources and power that if his wife left, without any effort on his part another would pick him up because his power is attractive. Alphas can have harems in public and with impunity (Bill Clinton, JFK, Hugh Hefner, wealthy lawyers and financiers). Real alpha is rare. Fratboys or whoever else had lots of random sex aren’t alpha, they just learned some party and slut pickup skills. The PUA alpha is like emulating the options of the powerful and entitled, without actually the entitlement or power, it’s a fake alpha. That doesn’t mean PUA skills are useless, far from it, I’ve learned a lot from how to be confident and funny and enjoy dating women, but I think they should be put in a realistic, mature (non ex-nerd loser) framework of what is love, what are relationships, what is alpha, what is healthy emotional state for a man.
Here is a religious quote, again I’m not religious but I think it defines love well.
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-dml/dml-y030.html
I’m so glad that I found your blog and this article
(I discovered it through TSB)
I can’t tell you how much I needed to read this
and all the comments.
I think that firstly, whatever context it’s in
(be it through pickup, music, film, business
or religion for example) I really dislike the
guru phenomenon.
Why? well okay, this might sound like the
conclusion to a corny hollywood movie but
. . . I beleive that we’re all at least capable of greatness (a)
and B that there are no real shortcuts in life;
you will find fantastic people who will tell you what
pitfalls to avoid and point you in the right direction
but at the end of the day, it’s your story
That’s where for me, understanding your motivation
is essential. In my case it’s a few things -
being able to act upon opportunities when they present
themselves and also to create them. Its not ever having to
make compromises socially, romantically or sexually.
I recognise that I don’t have that in my life at this moment
and I’d be lying to myself if I didn’t admit its part validation
aswell which isn’t healthy.
On a sidenote- it seems bizzare to me that you are formally
taught many skills, theories and educated on subjects
(a lot of which is purely academic)
but when it comes to socialising and communicating, something
of fundamental importance and value to us, and your left to figure
it out on your own
Despite my lack of enthusiasm for guru worshipping,
my idol (albeit fictional) is Ferris Bueller. The guy
has complete social and romantic freedom in that
he can hang out with and date whoever he wants
depending on what mood he is in or occasion that arises.
But when it comes down to it, he’s all about having
a good time and spreading the love.
Cheers guys
More than anything else I’ve read in pickup your stuff about the pitfalls of what we do has been the most helpful. I spend more time trying to avoid the bad shit than I do trying to get SNL’s and I’m OK with that. Everyone should do this stuff at their own pace and I hate all the competition and one upping each other kind of stuff that seems to go along with it. Good article.
Great article Entropy. I see many of the points you raise come up with guys and others coming in and out of my own perspective at times. The biggest value I have found to being aware of them (and reminded of them to be staying aware of them) it to be consistently keeping oneself in check, reminded of the true wants and not to get sucked in and blinded by the temporary highs of the ‘guy crack’ type things.
One time back when I found myself trying to sleep with a girl I wasn’t that into had me question things after. Then in a situation where I was pointing to the girl in a group of three at a party that I hadn’t slept with yet(of a social circle) to come with me where I was sleeping that night had me redefine what I wanted out of the whole man/woman dynamic for myself. That came from thinking through these things after it happened. I still kept friendly contact with the girls I was close to on that level, yet it helped me to identify what I wanted on a deeper level within myself was more than an easy lay.
I found myself enjoying women much more. I was enjoying their energy, the company, their balance of feminine to my masculine, learning more of how they see the world and how the world sees them. While having relationships that have gone on several years, short term dating relationships, to the same girls that come into and out of my life every so often to chick friends that are nothing else, I do very much value the women in my life and the new ones that come into it.
Seeing guys get lost in the rating system for girls reminds me how many times a guy finds a girl a 10 that I don’t find attractive or a girl I think is super hott that another guy doesn’t think is so. My favorite realization that comes over and over is when a girl I wouldn’t consider that hott on first sight, suddenly raises her visual rating in my mind once I get to know her. When she gets excited about her topics and I see the depth in her personality, that sparkle in her eye when she we are discussing common passions, can bring a 7 up to a 10 in record time and than once seeing that, time and time again, my perspective of her stays there, still seeing her on the very hott perspective. It all came down to my balance of how I consider a girl hott.
The way I see a perfect balance is a girl who is gorgeous on a visual sense with a beautiful personality. A girl can raise her visual beauty in my perspective with her personality, but that doesn’t really work the other way around. When I was younger, I might have enjoyed sex with a girl simply because she is gorgeous, yet now when I detect empty, shallow, superficial, ect girl, my interest drops very quickly.
Your article covered a lot of great things to consider and re-evaluate when understanding one’s self when it comes to their motivations in ‘picking-up’ or meeting new women…and also understanding where you are coming from in all off this.
[[[As usual, the last one to realize that the relationship was completely falling apart was the man in it.]]] Although it shouldn’t be, it is funny because of how true it is. The guy just missed the subtle indications, hints, etc when there is room to get back on the same page with her. Once she has made this decision, she will usually not indicate it (explicitly) until it is too late.
So glad that you wrote this article. Discovering pickup gave me the confidence to overcome fears and become more social and transforming my life, but I still had deep-seated emotional issues that I just hoped pickup could solve. When I realized that I still wasn’t happy, I didn’t know what to do.
I think pickup is a useful tool that you can use in the beginning phase of socializing with girls, but the main problem with guys coming into this is lack of proper socialization and emotional issues, as you said.
I’ve been going out a lot just to avoid boredom, but what I think that I need to do is be around positive, social, happy people — because our peer group influences us the most. I think happiness comes from having a healthy, positive mindset and self-image, and contributing to society and helping others less fortunate than yourself.
I’m glad that there are good, honest people like you spreading this knowledge. Thanks for the article.
DC
dude…epic post.
I’m also one of these sad boy turned pickup superhero guys. On the fast seduction forums I’m called “Zardoz.” When I started coaching I would literally have nightmares about having a “Bad night.” Like, I would do a demo and some chick would back turn me and my clients would demand a refund or something.
The whole pua scene really fucked me up. It alienated me from my social circle and turned me into an alcoholic night owl. But, if I had not taken that adventure I wouldn’t be the guy I am today…a much better guy.
I did a lair talk in Montreal once and after the talk I went for a beer across the street and 15 guys joined me at the bar. I was sitting there in a strange city, a dating coach and I didn’t even have one girl to talk to. Just 15 guys who also didn’t have girls.
Every time I consider leaving this fucked up business, or have somebody tell me what I do is wrong oreepy, I remind myself that if guys like me n you stop teaching this “community” will never mature and more guys will be left learning from real creeps.
Definitely a great post. Hats off to you! The information that you have provided is very helpful!
I met a guy on vacation. he was a little nerdy but cool and smart and fun. ee really connected. I moved to where he lived but by then, he had gotten into pick up. I didn’t know that though. I was confused because sometimes he would seem the same guy I met and other times he would act crazy and treat me like shit. it sucked because I was already into him and I didn’t want to believe he had turned into an asshole. at first I tried to be nice and supportive. Im a damn good gf but he never got to know that. it was obvious he was obsessed with every girl in the room and dating god knows how many girls, plus he dressed weird and tried to talk me into having a threesome with a girl. he hurt me so bad.
Test comment, sorry.
I guess you missed one of the most important things that is stated at the very beginning of the venusian arts handbook, I’m sure you’re aware about it:
“Let the venusian arts enrich your life, not define it.”
A profound article but still I do not see questions that need to be asked. Why men need dating advice? Why this wasn’t the issue 50 years ago?
Find the red pill.
Second article ive read of yours..and I’m most impressed with you writing. I think you demonstrate what actually attracts women…you know how to articulate yourself intelligently..otherwise I would have skipped the article half way through..This element of effectively communicating with women..cant be taught. You cant teach someone to be interesting. It doesn’t matter what hobbies they have or places they have been..if they cannot make a story intriguing they simply fail to hold a woman’s interest. the art of conversation is a much underrated one and its being killed off in modern life, with texts and Facebook and this is why I suspect “dating advice for me”, or whatever it will be re branded as, will become much bigger. People still go to bars and nightclubs and I cant see that ending anytime soon. I agree however that sex for the sake of sex is going to leave you empty and depressed. and i don’t aspire to that guy anymore..not for a long time..however i still like to seduce women…just to keep my skills in good shape for when I find “the one” hahaha. like yourself It was my first proper girlfriend that, ruined it for me..she was beautiful and I though she was an angel…turned out she had borderline personality disorder…that was a lot of fun…and unfortunately I think at least 70% of women have something seriously wrong upstairs, but no doubt men do as well, but as I never wanted to marry a guy that didn’t really bother me..
The whole PUA community, mentality, is a reaction to men feeling powerless over women. Women do indeed make an exhibition of themselves every time they step outside and the nearest male equivalent would be an outrageously dressed pimp or mystery (he’s hardly original for that). And human beings, on the whole, are fascinated by and attracted to people who make an exhibition of themselves in public, because “normal” men have lots of “normal” social constraints. The imbalance is that this exhibitionism, is not a masculine trait, its a feminine one, make up, high hells, tight dresses, short skirts, etc,etc,etc. And men are basically completely thrown off and intimidated by it all but at the same time completely attracted to it. Then you have very attractive women who say they cant understand why men are afraid to approach them haha. Please, if i dresses up in a fur coat and alligator boots, im pretty sure women may want to approach me, just to find out what makes me tick or because they assume i must be a barrel of laughs to dress like a clown…either way it attracts attention…(like I said its old school pimping, nothing new)..but women wont approach a guy like that, even though they desire to know him, but if he approaches them its game over, because he already raised their attraction level by dressing like a clown.
Now my point to women who have responded in this thread is this…if you display your sexuality overtly, what are you trying to attract, because only a real player is going to approach you because he has the skill set to do it…yet you all then complain about the men you end up dating.
If you want to find a quality man, then I suggest you go and look for one someplace..other than the bars or clubs..isn’t it a no brainer?