GunwitchThis story has been making the rounds. Old school pick up artist Gunwitch was arrested a few days ago for shooting a 20-year-old woman in the face at a New Year’s Eve party. Reports are that she survived but I imagine is pretty deformed.

Gunwitch is most famous for having his own chapter in The Game and being one of the first proponents of being upfront and direct with women. His favorite motto was, “Make the ho say no.” His personality was regularly a feature on the Barry Kirkey Show years ago, where he came off as an eccentric, slightly-insane, angry but funny redneck who loved chasing women and loved guns. He imparted listeners with epic stories about gun fights in Vegas, bar brawls and how he was once shot when he was 13. When I saw this I can’t say I was surprised or ever doubted its authenticity (in case you’re wondering, users from his website called the jail where he’s being held and confirmed it is actually him).

It’s too easy to make the obligatory PUA jokes here about negs or IOD’s. That’s poor taste. Some girl got shot and almost died. Regardless of our many gripes and frustrations about women in the scene and the sometimes misogynistic ramblings you’ll find from some guys, violence against women in any form has never been supported and is immoral. I don’t care what she did, she didn’t deserve a gunshot to the face. No one does.

Unfortunately, this will be yet another tarnish on a scene that’s been fighting tooth and nail to retain any credibility lately. And unfortunately, this may indirectly affect all of us who used to be involved with PUA or are still tangentially tied to it. A few years ago, there was a lot of hopeful talk about pick up artist teachings being accepted as mainstream and even supported in some cases… but the fact is that hope slowly died when it became apparent how odd and vulgar some of the teachings actually are. Gunwitch’s behavior doesn’t help anybody’s case, and even though we can attribute it to a one-off occurrence by an unstable guy… it will reflect poorly on everybody involved in the community/industry.

Unless Gunwitch can afford a nice lawyer (doubtful) and present some sort of self-defense argument (how shooting a 20-year-old girl in the face can be construed as self defense, I don’t know), then he’s looking at spending most/all of his life in prison. And if he is found guilty in court, I say good riddance.

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42 Responses to Pick Up Artist Shoots a Woman in the Face

  1. Breeeeeett says:

    Comon, every community has its extremist and crazies. Why should the pua community be any different? We need some better publicity. The term “Pick Up Artist” needs to die…it just sounds to creepy and ill-intentioned. We need to be called the “social skills support and teaching community” or something…

  2. Breeeeeett says:

    I think of myself as an optimist, and I like to think that given enough time, society evolves and truth eventually prevails. Just like natural selection amongst animals, there is natural selection amongst ideas…and only the best and most truthful ideas and theories survive the trials of time.

    That being said, I DO THINK that the “Pick-Up-Artist” community has a LOT of great things to teach guys about self confidence, social skills, relationships, and making the lives of the students and the people around the students better. People like you, Rob Judge, 60 years, and Christian Hudson (I’m sure there are more, these are just the people I’m most familiar with) have done a lot in the way of adding positive value to the lives of your students AND the world as a whole by providing positive mindsets and theories for your readers.

    It sucks when a few bad apples set back the reputations of everyone involved, including the positive influences. However, the PU community is a relatively young community (it can’t be more than 15 years old I don’t think…and didn’t REALLY start picking up steam until a little under 6 years ago with Neil Strauss’s release of “The Game”)…and it seems like over the last year or two, there has been a MAJOR weeding out process of false believes, negative mindsets, misogynistic values, and people who are straight up full of shit. I think the next major battles the PU community will have to face is obviously negative PR, crossing over to the mainstream and being accepted for what it really is – self help and social skills support for guys, and filtering through all the bullshit internet marketers that are just trying to make a quick buck off of desperate guys.

    It may take a long time, but I REALLY DO THINK the “Pua” community will eventually transform, evolve, and flourish into something good for society. It may not even be recognizable 15-20 years from now, but it’s really kind of fun to watch its transformation along the sidelines and see what it becomes. Can you believe a lot of this stuff really began with Mystery? lol. And look what it’s blossomed into!

    It may be a long road ahead and a difficult battle, but I am glad there are pioneers in this field to guide it along in a positive direction like you, Mark. Best of luck, and let me know if there’s anything I can do to help along the way.


  3. JCZ says:

    Personally, from judging from the sidelines, I think the ‘community’ itself is dead. It’s infested by Mystery-guru-clones, all claiming to have _the_ cure for all your problems, which in all cases is a matter of hand-over-$X,XXXX for 0 value, because most of these guru’s have 0 experience themselves.

    (for a critical blog about this phenomenom, see

    The only people joining the ranks of the ‘community’ will eventually be the nerds who fall for the typical Mystery promise that every problem can be solved using enough pseudo-science and some math.

    Then there are and will be guys like you and the other guys Breeeet mentioned, and I sincerely hope you guys get high enough page rankings in Google and on other relevant media so that the other sham guru’s eventually get pushed off the interwebs entirely.

    Really, the ‘community’ has got it’s name tarnished beyond repair; I would never want to be associated with it and I wouldn’t also shed a single tear when I’d hear it die completely.

  4. David says:

    Just on the discussion of PUAs, apart from a few notable exceptions such as Mark, “pick up artist” to me symbolises someone not to be trusted. I dealt with one Australian coach who shagged my friend and then wrote about it on the internet as a ‘lay report’ – complete with real name and other personal details. This is the tip of the iceberg too. They’re numb and lost their empathy if they ever had it, and have more issues than anyone..

  5. Rob Judge says:

    This is the most mature write up on this incident I’ve seen. IMO it’s horrifying and contemptible, but it really has nothing to do with the fact he was a “Pickup Artist.”

    I’m against the whole idea of “PUAs” as much as anyone, but it’s unfair to link together being a PUA and what he did.

    It’s no different from when someone in another profession shoots someone. People don’t say “He shot that person because he’s a lawyer.”

    Gunwitch shot that woman because he’s a psycho. Not because he was a pickup artist.

    Regardless, it’s tragic it happened.

  6. Jon says:


    I agree with you to an extent, but the difference is that a dating coach is supposed to be some sort of model of handling interactions. The really troubling thing is that the guy had displayed really creepy behaviors, with lots of references to guns, prior to this incident, and yet had a following. If this guy called himself a pickup artist and nobody listened to him this wouldn’t be about PUAs in general. Maybe if, based on his prior behavior, nobody could have seen this coming it wouldn’t have anything to do with PUAs, but the real way that this does relate to the community is not that a pickup artist shot somebody, but that a lot of people in the community listened to a guy with clear violent tendencies. The guy was written up in the game, endorsed by Formhandle. I actually do think it’s legitimate for Jezebel to express concern that this guy had been held up as some sort of model when there were plenty of warning signs.

  7. Mark says:

    I agree with Rob too, but I also agree that unfortunately it’s human nature for people to make these connections. Whether we like it or not, it’s going to affect everyone’s reputation.

    It’s like if some self-help guru hung himself. Even if he was a small, obscure self help guru, I imagine it’d affect our perceptions of the industry in general.

    Sad but true.

    • António says:

      It’s like if some self-help guru hung himself. Even if he was a small, obscure self help guru, I imagine it’d affect our perceptions of the industry in general.

      Like some who guy makes a touching speech about life and short after proceeds to hung himself?* 😉

      I understand that you are a bit sensitive about this, bc it touches close to home as this is your work and mission but we all know that there are self help ppl full of cr@p. Do we believe it a little less that we can improve and make a better life for ourselves? Didn’t think so. In the big picture this is just a footnote. Haters gonna hate anyway, they will always will. Take this commenter at Jezebel:

      I mean I already knew that PUA guys were socially impaired, sexist dumbasses, but damn. That’s some Deliverance meets Silence of the Lambs shit right there. If I saw that man walking towards me at a bar I’d either run or call the cops.

      * For those missing the connection check out the link “This is water” under “Confidence” on the right side of this page.

      • Mark says:

        I’m not touchy about the self help industry. I am touchy about David Foster Wallace though. I hope you don’t perceive David Foster Wallace as another self help author because you’d SERIOUSLY be short-changing his work as a writer, artist and philosopher if you did.

        The self help analogy was just that, an analogy. My feelings about the mainstream self help industry are pretty well known (see: “Why Self Help Sucks”)

        I don’t think this will be a big watershed moment or anything. It just sucks, ultimately people who become interested in this industry or this information will stumble across Gunwitch and be turned off by it. We all lose credibility because of him.

        • António says:

          I just couldn’t help to connect the events.

          The work you posted here is the only one I know from him and I read it 2 or 3 times. And knowing how he died does change some people’s perceptions about it, as the comments in that post show. But it did not prevent you (or me) from learning from it or even posting it for others to learn. And in doing so you promoted his work as self-help – I am not implying that you’ve limited his work in any way but for must of us that is all we will always hear of DFW. And that’s good enough for me.

          As for “PUA credibility”, you must stand by yourself, market wise. I hope you can do it, I’ve got a lot of value from your postings.

          • Mark says:

            In hindsight, it wasn’t the most effective analogy to pull out of my ass. And if I knew it was going to drag DFW into it (a man close to my heart), then I would have avoided it.

            But you’re right… DFW’s suicide doesn’t change the brilliance of his writing for me or the profound influence he’s had on my life, just like Hemingway’s suicide hasn’t made me enjoy his novels any less or Cobain’s suicide has made me appreciate his music any less.

            And to be honest, when I joined the community I really liked Gunwitch’s stuff. I actually got quite a bit out of his teachings. Just goes to show, the teacher and the teachings can’t be treated the same.

            But as for perceptions, you’re right, one must just move on and continue to make their own statement.

    • Breeeeeett says:

      David Foster Wallace…

    • Breeeeeett says:

      “It’s like if some self-help guru hung himself. Even if he was a small, obscure self help guru, I imagine it’d affect our perceptions of the industry in general.”

      David Foster Wallace…

  8. Breeeeeett says:

    oops, now I see you already commented on that. Ignore my comment.

  9. Breeeeeett says:

    You need a delete button…lol

  10. Mark says:

    Ugh… the fact that DFW is being treated as a self help guru by my readers is making me regret posting that speech.

    • Breeeeeett says:

      It’s not that Antonio and I were treating DFW as a self help Guru, I don’t think, I know personally I was more responding to your comment

      “It’s like if some self-help guru hung himself. Even if he was a small, obscure self help guru, I imagine it’d affect our perceptions of the industry in general.”

      Cause I’m not sure I 100% agree with that comment, and actually thought you were being a little harsh and hypocritical, and was using DFW as an example to point that out.

      People are complex creatures, and the factors that go into deciding our actions are numerous. If a body of work has had a strong, positive influence on your life over a number of years, I don’t think it’s fair to throw all of that away in one instant because of a single action of the person who’s teachings you were following. Do you discredit everything you learned from DFW because he hung himself? No, that’s silly. The man was great guy, a great philosopher, and his teachings can, and do still have a lot of value and relevance to life. Has my perception of the pua community changed because of the actions of 1 idiot? No, absolutely not, because I have always filtered the bad, and looked for the good. Nothing is all or none.

      I really liked the, “this is water” post, and would be very disappointed if you decided to withhold other writings that you held near and dear to your heart because you thought your readers weren’t “getting it”. I’m sorry I used DFW as an example, because it’s obviously a bit of a sore spot for you. I’m not going to pretend that I know as much about him as you, but I enjoyed that speech and will probably look into his writings more BECAUSE you shared that article with us.

      I know this comment is a bit jumbled an confusing, and I’m not even 100% sure what my point is, but it’s something along the lines of – you can’t let 1 instance or action alter your perception about an entire body of work, even if that 1 instance is contradictory to everything that was previously taught or believed…

      • Breeeeeett says:

        things can still have value even in the midst of confusion and stupidity

        • Mark says:

          True. True.

          Like I said, I’m touchy about DFW, because a lot of people do brush him off because of the suicide, so I make a point to stick up for him a lot.

          The analogies aren’t really working here. I guess what I was trying to get at, is that as a PUA guru, Gunwitch would be expected to treat women well. That’s the whole irony of it. That’s what I was trying to get at with the self-help guru hanging himself. It’s not that it invalidates everything he says (like I said, I like some of Gun’s old material)… it just hurts the whole industry’s credibility.

  11. Breeeeeett says:

    Yea, I gotcha. I just hate the fact that the whole pua industry suffers from the actions of 1 idiot, who’s problems were probably not related to pua at all.

  12. Nick says:

    It is a pity to say the least. Like most have said already it will completely undermine the whole community. IMO i think Gunwitch material along with yours is actually the best out there for pick-up.

    At the end of the day when it comes to self improvement, it would be best to just focus on the material and the results it produces rather then the actual person.

  13. Tim says:

    Poor DFW’s name shouldn’t really be making it’s way into these discussions. One thing though Mark; does the fact that he killed himself lessen the message of ‘This is Water’ for you? Because it does make me slightly uneasy. If the only thing that DFW was saying that he knew was truth with a capital T was that we choose how we observe and process our reality, how come he wasn’t able to use this knowledge to improve his own life? I’m sure he struggled most of his life with trying to stay positive and battle his depression, but ultimately he failed. The demons inside him were more powerful than him. Were they more powerful than his message?

    • Mark says:

      It doesn’t. There’s a segment of people who suffer from biological depression. It’s clinical like schizophrenia and can’t be fixed, only medicated. I think depression has been over-prescribed this last generation, and so people take severe clinical depression far too lightly. I linked to his Wiki article because it describes his life-long battle with it in detail. The guy was successful, brilliant and had everything, a supportive family, etc… his brain was just wired in a way that he always felt miserable. He medicated it for most of his life, but ultimately, anti-depressants aren’t perfect and eventually stopped working. He struggled through severe depression for the last 10 years, including the period when he wrote “This is Water” and then eventually gave up. From what I’ve read, by the time he did it, his family was almost sympathetic to his decision to kill himself.

      For me, it doesn’t really affect “This is Water” other than that as a person who suffered from a lifetime of depression disorders, he had probably spent more time than most thinking about stuff like that… then you add his genius, and you get a really spectacular take on perspective and “the trenches of every day life.”

      • Tim says:

        That’s the argument I’ve always used in response to that criticism. Still leaves me uneasy though. I’ll think it over to figure out why.

        On a related note, have you read Infinite Jest? I got about 50 or so pages in (my limit point for testing a book) and still wasn’t enjoying it. Sure it’s absolutely brilliant on a whole number of levels; wordplay, social critique, character detail, etc, but I felt like it was without any heart, which is a strange criticism for a writer I’ve usually found to have passion so inextricably linked with the poignancy and precision of his words. I guess it’s the kind of book I’ll try again in a couple of years and see how it goes then. I did thoroughly enjoy the opening scene.

        Also, and this is just me being research lazy, but what do you recommend most out of his other work? I loved “Roger Federer as Religious Experience”, both as a tennis fan and as a reader, and I’ve read others essays of his, but only dabbling really.

        As a fair trade I’ll give you this fantastic obituary, the first thing I read after Future introduced me to ‘This is Water’ and DFW almost 2 years ago.

        • Mark says:

          Funny you ask. I’m about 600 pages into Infinite Jest right now. It’s a mammoth undertaking. Not only is it 1000+ pages, but the writing is dense and exhausting. It didn’t become enjoyable for me until about page 150 or so. Even now there are days where I’m not in the mood. I’ve been reading other books at the same time, and I’ve gotten through literally 8-10 other books in the time I’ve read 600 pages of IJ.

          Is it worth it? I think so. It really tests your patience, but after a while you realize that he intended it that way. The writing oscillates between dry and long-winded and absolutely mesmerizing and brilliant. The best passages in IJ are some of the best passages I’ve ever read of anything. But at other times, getting through even 10-15 pages can be a test of patience.

          I’ve read the Roger Federer article. I appreciated it, but I’m not really a tennis fan, so a lot of it went over my head. I loved his essay “A Supposedly Fun Thing that I’ll Never Do Again.” Other than that, I haven’t read anything else. I do plan on reading everything of his that’s available. But I guess I jumped straight into the deep end with IJ and it’s taking me FOREVER to get through it.

        • Mark says:

          Brief DFW note about his depression. This was written by him in a short story published in 1999, and is ostensibly self-referential:

          “Paxil, Zoloft, Prozac, Tofranil, Wellbutrin, Elavil, Metrazol in combination with unilateral ECT (during a two-week voluntary in-patient course of treatment at a regional Mood Disorders clinic), Parnate both with and without lithium salts, Nardil both with and without Xanax. None had delivered any significant relief from the pain and feelings of emotional isolation that rendered the depressed person’s every waking hour an indescribable hell on earth.”

          • Axel says:

            My goodness. The fact that he could stand to live long enough to write his works is a testament to his will. He must have had unfathomable emotional resilience. Although I have not read his work thoroughly (which I plan to do now), the fact that he wrote as well as he did despite his illness does prove something. I will read “This is Water” to get a better picture of this.

  14. Matt T says:

    That is Gunwitch?

    You’d think that a PUA would bother at least investing minimally into his appearance.

  15. Breeeeeett says:

    Jesus, Mark (In reference to DFW’s short story). If he really did go all through of that without any relief, I would say that is about the WORST case of biological depression I’ve ever heard of. It’s amazing he made it as long as he did or was as productive as he was during his lifetime.

    • Mark says:

      He successfully took Nardil for many, many years. But he suffered from on and off from his late teens until his death in his 40’s. About 3-4 years before his death, his medication stopped working or caused a lot of complications or something. He was unable to work for most of his final years until he finally killed himself.

  16. Paul says:

    “…and the sometimes misogynistic ramblings you’ll find from some guys”

    I like how you use ‘sometimes’ and ‘some guys’

    Maybe you just don’t see it Mark, but it’s almost everywhere (including around here). It’s not overt, of course…but it is tucked and hidden in the right spots so that guys (perhaps even some women) think it’s acceptable.

    The whole aim of this community is fucked up, and the sad part is, I’ve seen a number of really good guys led astray (seduced?) from this material when their original intent was noble. I’m positive that with time this will all become more ‘exposed’ and/or dismantled.

    Also, I want to point out that the various rotating images you have at the top of your site depict women as mere objects. And some of the terms you use like ‘chicks’ are sexist and show a lot of disrespect (not to mention the titles and content of many of your articles).

    You are moving in a better direction, Mark, but if you truly want to hold claim to the ‘I’m not a PUA anymore’ thing, you need to walk it and not just talk (or market) it. When I look around here, I think ‘pickup artist’.

    A little tough love, I know, but I know you’re likely not going to here it from anyone else besides me.

    • Paul says:

      Also, while I think what Gunwitch did was horrible, I think this community as a whole is inflicting something way worse (psychologically and long-term over a huge population) than he, but I do hope the guy gets the punishment he deserves.

  17. Breeeeeett says:

    Paul, you are being WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY too harsh man. You gotta take the good with the bad, and there is a LOT LOT LOT of good that you are overlooking. Yes, there is some bad, and I agree that the bad should be called attention to, discussed, and weeded out, but to make such a negative blanket statement like that is ridiculous.

    I think the mere fact that the community gets men actively THINKING ABOUT and DISCUSSING issues like this is progress in itself. I agree that there is a lot of chauvinism in the community, AND IN SOCIETY ITSELF that a lot of men AND WOMEN have come to accept as natural. At THE VERY LEAST the community gets us thinking about and discussing those problems. Isn’t that the first step towards progress? Chill the fuck out and try looking through your optimism goggles for once.

    I agree that the incident with Gunwitch was horrible and the man should be ostracized, criticized, and put behind bars for a long long time. But you can’t condemn an entire community for the actions of one crazy radical extremist psycho. And if there’s a silver lining to this whole incident, its that it’s at least forcing the community to take a long hard look at itself.

    And the reasons that I like people like Mark, Rob Judge, and Christian Hudson is for the COMPLETE OPPOSITE fact that you are condemning them for. I find them to be some of the least chauvinistic people in the community. I would say that over half of Mark’s articles, easily, probably more don’t even discuss picking up girls directly. They discuss things like improving confidence, enjoying life, making things happen for yourself, being honest, being realistic, figuring out what you want out of life, and can often get very existential and philosophical.

    Yes, maybe some of the pictures at the top of Mark’s page are a little chauvinistic and objectify women, but get off your fucking soap box. I hate to say it, but sex sells, and to pick on Mark when there is an advertisement on TV depicting women as objects every three minutes is a little ridiculous. I’m not saying I approve of it, but I am saying that this is unfortunately the culture we live in now, and Mark does more to advance that culture than 99% of Americans, so back the fuck off.

    • Paul says:

      Hey Bret,

      I’m not condemning the community based on Gunwitch, but it as a whole. Maybe I am being harsh in your eyes, and a lot of readers opinions, I presume, but I can assure you the issue here is real.

      I do agree with you that there are issues in relationships/dating/romance today that need to be discussed though, and I’ve been around this community long enough (8 years) to see that there is some level of good to come out of it, but on the whole, I have to say it is doing more damage than not.

      While I may come across as angry, I can assure you I have a lot of sympathy for the men involved in this industry (coaches and consumers) and think, on many levels, we are all victims. This is a big topic for discussion, and I don’t expect to get a head-nod on it here since I can’t lay it all out for in the brevity of a forum post.

      I should mention that it’s not just men’s dating advice, but also women’s dating advice that is contributing to many issues (so you know I’m not being biased here). I’m well aware of the more mainstream issues you mentioned (such as TV ads) and have my gripes with those as well.

      Maybe I, and many other activists/advocates who are trying to bring awareness to these issues, will not change much in the grand scheme of things. Society is so far gone already it seems. My hope though, is that at as time goes on and more light is shed on these issues, new approaches will be taken, preferably one that truly promotes long-term health in individuals and relationships, and doesn’t adhere to the mountain of psychological destruction that history has so graciously given us in regards to gender roles and dominance in our relationships (for more on this, check out ‘Bonds of Love’ by Jessica Benjamin — very dense, but highly recommended).

      You don’t have to buy what I’m saying, and I know this all probably seems waaayy kooky and far out, but hey, someone’s got to play devils advocate.

      And so you know, I have given Mark a lot of credit in the past (and still do), but I think I also bring a perspective he is probably not going to hear from many (if any) of his readers and someone has got to play devils advocate sometimes. And just a feeling, but since he is so committed to this area, I think as the years go on he will connect with and understand more of what I’m saying.

  18. Breeeeeett says:

    I get what you’re trying to say man, everyone does. You just aren’t being realistic. You can’t change society overnight. To say that “society is too far gone” is such a overreaching, negative, blanket statement that just reeks of so much bitterness and hate that it makes me question your motives.

    Society HAS progressed. Albeit slowly. But progress is being made. 60 years ago women didn’t even have the right to vote. 40 years ago men outnumbered women in the workforce almost 5:1. 20 years ago (I’m in medical school) medical school classes were 80% male. Now the number of women in the workplace is more or less equal to the number of men, and OVER 50% of medical school admissions are female.

    I’m not saying that everything is perfect. Yes, men still make more money then women. Yes, the number of male CEO’s far outnumbers the number female CEO’s. Yes, chauvinism still exists. Yes, some guru’s in the community are bullshit, chauvinistic assholes just looking to make a buck. BUT FORWARD PROGRESS IS BEING MADE, and we need to CONTINUE MOVING IN THAT DIRECTION.

    Like I said, society doesn’t change overnight. But every time we have a conversation like this, progress is made. Everytime a man learns to improve himself instead of taking his anger out on women, progress is made. And everytime we weed out negative beliefs, progress is made. Mark does so much to encourage these types of behaviors, that it really makes me wonder what is ACTUALLY going on with you, man.

    Hope I wasn’t too harsh, but I believe in this strongly.


  19. Paul says:


    I hear that you are angry with me for sharing a different perspective that doesn’t resonate with you, and it is still my perspective.

    I’m glad you favor the progression of women in society and have chosen to sift through a lot of the negative messages in this community. You are probably healthier than most of us.

    I am pretty sure I have acknowledged Mark for good things way more than I have the other way around, and I don’t think there is anything ‘ACTUALLY going on with me’ other than presenting an alternative viewpoint for thinking.

    Doesn’t matter who is right or wrong, and debate will not give a resolution to either of us here. Trust me, I’m well aware I go against the grain and am used to it. Just ask Mark about my postings on a forum we were part of.

    Hope you understand what I’m saying…

  20. Matt says:

    I grew tired of being apart of this PUA crap. When I first joined, I thought I was getting some great advice on how to treat women but as it turns out, I ended up hurting a woman I really cared about but this community in general frowns on you if you actually want to land one lady.

    After I dropped this stunt, I grew to realize this form of manipulation is designed to hurt people. I got lucky and apologized to my now fiancee and I will never again treat women like that.

  21. Question about this says:

    Whats the latest with Gunbitch? I’ve googled around and can’t find anything. Tyler Durden of RSD said he was going to launch into mainstream self help over a year or 2 ago. What happened with that?

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