I file onto Alitalia flight 649 — a direct flight from Rome, Italy to Caracas, Venezuela — in the cool dawn, groggy from the Wednesday morning dawn, irritable from the usual array of micro-inconveniences that comprise modern-day air travel.

My seat is 14L, a window. I get to my row and a short, pudgy Italian man in 14K pops up to allow me in. He’s all smiles — one of those “morning people” I suppose.

He has a beach ball belly, probably mid-60′s, ear-length hair parted down the middle, with 70′s-style slightly tinted thick-rimmed glasses on. He looked like a Serpico-era Al Pacino that grew grey and rotund and forgot to change his clothes for the last three decades.

I sit. He retakes his seat next to me. He lunges over the armrest to begin talking to me, clearly breaching the invisible, unspoken demarcation of personal space between two airplane seats. He corners me with his small talk: Hello, where are you from, oh you speak Spanish, beautiful morning isn’t it, are you on vacation, what do you do, are you staying in Caracas, oh how nice I’m an actor.

Each word launches torpedoes of halitosis-laden air toward me; the man has possibly the most vile breath my lungs have ever confronted. I begin inching my head back farther and farther away from him, but the entire region is crop-dusted. He leans — no, invades — the invisible armrest-border into my territory, besieging me and my comfy 14L leather-chair empire, blanketing me with his esophageal stench and pleasantries; Markantinople is burning, burning with the stench of old man, ransacked and pillaged, subjected to wave after wave of non-conversation.

I retreat into my backpack and offer him a stick of gum. Disaster averted. I then counterattack by putting my seat back and nudging him off my side of the armrest. He’s off-balance, chewing contently; the onslaught has abated. Then I make my move. I quickly follow up the seat-back jab with a combination right-hook of headphones in my ears and iPod on; and before he can gather himself, I blast the music and close my eyes: uppercut.

It seems all is well and the flight will proceed as normal. But maybe 15 minutes later I feel a tap on my shoulder. I ignore it. The tap turns into pointy-fingered jab. WHAT!?!?! I open my eyes and zombie Al Pacino’s face is hovering close to mine again, WAY over on my side — further, even — as he pantomimes silent words underneath the music. I pull my left earbud out, making every effort to NOT hide my irritation at him, I ask him the most angry Qué? I can muster.

More small talk. But this time it comes in cool mint.

Eventually, through Herculean efforts of passive-aggression and feigned sleep, I get him to stop talking and to (mostly) stop touching me. But he’s ceded no territory. He’s now spread himself across the armrest with his knee jabbing into my long thigh, the borders have been redrawn, the geopolitical tensions between 14K and 14L remain tense.

And as with any active border dispute, peace is a mirage, conflict is never far away. An hour passes. Awake and now eating, the Italian man, the Roman invader, the unrepentant Caesar, turns to me and reinitiates diplomatic communication. Am I married? he asks.

No, I’m not. Are you?

He was for fifteen years he says. But not anymore. He’s “free” now, he says, extra emphasis on “free,” — libré, he adds special accent to the end of the word for emphasis.

I offer a generic platitude in return: “That’s great, it can be great to be single. ”

“Yes,” he says, “I can fuck whomever I want.”

I try not to betray how awkward his last statement was, so I nod lightly and return my gaze to my food, my cold pasta suddenly mesmerizing me.

He leans over again, now launching an artillery of spittle and bread crumbs all over me, he looks me in the eye. The old bastard is serious: “True freedom is when you can fuck whomever you want.”

Despite having spent years involved in the pick up artist industry, having written thousands of words on promiscuity, discussed polyamory and the merits of casual sex at length, I somehow find myself utterly repulsed and speechless.

Then he put his hand on my leg.

I freak out a little bit inside. He’s hitting on me. I look at the little screen on the back of the seat in front of me. It shows the flight path, just begun, and flashes “Time to Destination”: 9 hours 47 minutes.

He takes his hand off and looks at me for a long time without saying anything. I inch away, now in full retreat, I look at the screen, out the window, anything — I’m trapped in the leather throne of my 14L empire, getting smaller by the minute.

A moment passes and he resumes: Freedom means being able to fuck both men and women. He watches me for a reaction. He gets none, so he doubles down: “I like to have sex with men. Do you?”

I tell him I don’t. He asks why. I say I’m just not interested in them.

He laughs. “That’s what I used to say when I was your age. But I just didn’t know then.” Hand back on leg. Leg moves away. Hand dangles loosely, once again inhabiting my territory — my god, this is a 747 and I feel like I’m stuck in the trunk of a car. He’s leaning all the way over into my side now. I’m overrun.

He tells me I should try it: sex with men, that is. I reiterate: thanks, but no thanks. He laughs again. It’s just love. You just don’t understand he tries to say. You’re so young. I said the same thing when I was young. Women are nice, but a man is different. You don’t know yet. No one’s showed you. You just need to learn.

The implication was obvious.

A few uncomfortable moments pass. The food is gone, minus the lingering crumbs he launched onto my person. I have an overwhelming urge to get up and move, but part of me is mildly ashamed to. I’m a progressive and open person. I’m tolerant. I’ve known plenty of gay men — hell, plenty of gay men who have openly solicited me, flat out — and I’ve rarely had a problem with it. Not like this. Why was I so repulsed?

His arm is beyond the armrest, elbow digging into my side now. His leg, despite being perhaps half the length of mine is somehow occupying twice as much space.

But I will not be conquered. I sit up and finally ask him to move and give me space. He grunts a bit and inches back, but not much. He finally goes silent and starts watching a movie.

I ask myself: Can I deal with this? I can deal with this. He’s old; he’ll probably sleep. Right? Time to destination: 9 hours, 13 minutes.

But he doesn’t sleep. He taps me again. He says he has a place in Caracas. He says I should stay with him for the night. He offers to give me his number. He says he can “show me a fun night.” He says Caracas is a dangerous place and that he can help me. He says that he lives alone and that he has nothing planned while I’m in town. He touches me again.

I collect my things and announce I need to use the bathroom. He lets me out. I conspicuously bring my things with me and don’t look back. I find a flight attendant and tell her I’d like to change seats, that the man I’m sitting next to is bothering me. She kindly places me in 24F. A new throne. A new personal leather empire. Ahhhh….

The Fine Line of Creepiness

After being reseated, I spent much of the next hour thinking over the situation. Like I said, I’ve met plenty of gay men in my life and pride myself on being at ease with them, even when they flirt with me, even when they proposition me. Rarely have I gotten as uncomfortable with their advances as I did with this man.

Yet, these rare occasions are when I truly sympathize with what women must go through on a regular basis: the unwanted attention, the forced and awkward conversation, the needling of their insecurities, the condescension, the invasions of personal space, privacy, solitude, the old men and bad breath.

But at the same time: did this man have a right to speak to me? Of course. Did he have a right to inform me of his, err, sexual proclivities (or should I say “freedom”)? Yes, again, of course. Did he have a right to proposition me, to invite me out — or rather, in — with him? Yes and yes.

So what made this feel so inappropriate?

I’ve argued with feminists and defended a man’s right to initiate an interaction and demonstrate sexual interest to women. I’ve also, I’m sure, creeped out my fair share of women in my day — most of them unintentionally, but surely a number by being crass or drunk or just an idiot.

So where’s the line? Who has what right and when? What makes this situation so uncomfortable, when my gay Brazilian roommate earlier this year would openly lament that he wanted to sleep with me and wished I wasn’t straight, and I had no problem with it? How is what this man did with me different from what I’ve taught and encouraged men to do for years?

The difference is respect. It’s about people’s boundaries and borders and not steamrolling over them.

Just as the old Caesar disregarded my personal space, my silent pleas for privacy, my demonstrated lack of interest in his sex-talk, he also disregarded my ability to choose for myself, my right to make my own sexual decisions. I said the same thing when I was your age; you don’t understand sexual freedom yet. Stay with me tonight.

No. Fuck you. Who are you to say what I want and what I know about myself?

In my book on dating and attraction, Models, I put forth that the idea of “creepiness” is the opposite of flirting: it’s demonstrating sexual intent in a manner which is unwanted or ill-received.

But after this episode with the horny Roman, I don’t believe I went far enough. Creepiness occurs when someone demonstrates sexual intent while undermining or disregarding the recipient’s personal autonomy or consent.

Whether it’s a man prying a woman’s will with free drinks, a woman’s ridicule of a man’s masculinity for not hooking up with her, or an older gay man’s pooh-poohing of a young straight man’s comfort in his own heterosexuality, what these actions have in common is that the initiator is attempting to invalidate the recipient’s ability to make their own sexual decisions.

In short, it’s subtly dishonest, and it’s what leads to so-called “harsh rejections” or “buyer’s remorse” or low-quality interactions and relationships.

Over years of giving advice on attracting women, I naturally arrived at two principles I teach to anyone who takes me seriously:

  1. Be honest with your intent. Don’t hide who you are or what you want.
  2. Always be respectful of her autonomy and decision-making. If she’s not interested, move on.

It’s about honest action (hence the subtitle of the book: Attract Women Through Honesty). It’s also about pursuing sexual relationships with dignity, both for yourself and others.

I initially arrived at these tenets mostly through pragmatism: After spending years going out, approaching and flirting, I found that being upfront with my interest and being respectful of a woman’s interests/disinterests not only gave me the best results over the long-run, but it facilitated the most enjoyable process.

And, as the gay Roman showed me, it’s also the ethical way to pursue someone. Both men and women have a right to express their sexual desires. Both men and women have a right (and responsibility) to reject unwanted interest or desires.

The problem is when these rights are disregarded. That’s where it gets unethical. That’s when it gets creepy.

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91 Responses to Borders of Harassment

  1. Jorges says:

    Great text. But when you say “If she’s not interested, move on.”, how do you distinguish that from a so-called “Bitch shield” (the idea that an initial rejection sometimes just needs some persistance and then will go away)?

  2. Scratch says:

    I’ll admit: I was concerned that this entry might have devolved into a case of stereotyping homosexuals, but you adroitly maneuvered your way through the retelling of an encounter with this obscene opportunist holding the same poise it seemed to require of you in the moment. Bravo!

    I am especially touched by the remark, “I truly sympathize with what women must go through on a regular basis.” As a privileged, male-identifying, queer feminist, I feel its important for straight men get a taste of what they have a tendency to dish out: boorish, greedy, cock-sure advances and even abuse. Sometimes, I have even gone so far as to expressly remind them that they are NOT the top of the food chain.

    Nobody deserves to be on the receiving end of piggish advances… unless you’re into that kind of thing. (Which I happen to be, depending upon the guy). But even when I’m on my Bound in Public shoots, if there’s a skeevy old dude reaching out for my cock on the set, I have zero problems telling him that it’s not for him. End of discussion. If need be, I can have this guy ejected from the shoot by our producers. All of us have that same protective role in our heads, it’s just a matter of exercising it… which can be incredibly difficult to do in the moment, as you’ve illustrated.

    My other concern was for you and how long you seemed to have allowed the Roman invasion (as you cutely characterize it) to have continued. At what point did you get the impression that you needed to change seats? Was there some masochistic need to “see where this goes?” or was there a sense of territoriality about where you happened to be seated (which one can surmise based upon your comments about him crossing your borders of 14L) that kept you in the a jetstream of crumbs, noxious breath and not-so-seductive seduction? I’m hoping you didn’t “take one for the team” just so you could write about it. :P

    Also, just for the fun of it:
    http://us-p.vclart.net/vcl/Artists/Blotch/imsoPretty.jpg
    “Even ugly animals get to be in love”

    You and Serpico will always have Rome…

  3. Trzer says:

    I had a similar experience. It was my first time in a hostel. I was there for 3 days, and on the first day I was in the common room and a big guy, muscular, was sitting on the computer. I got talking to him and we talked about lifting and what we are doing in the city etc. Well, the common room was pretty loud, so he said, let’s go somewhere quiet. We went to his room… Here he told me to take off my glasses and he told me I look so much better without them. After that he got changed right in front of me, and even told me he was gay.
    I was getting really uncomfortable, not knowing if he was going to lock the door or something and I said to him “I should go now.” So I shook his hand and he had a really strong grip with intense eye contact. He was also moving his mouth closer to mine. I just said “No.” and thank god he didn’t hold me back when I left the room.

  4. Meshack says:

    great post…loved this part especially:
    I retreat into my backpack and offer him a stick of gum. Disaster averted. I then counterattack by putting my seat back and nudging him off my side of the armrest. He’s off-balance, chewing contently; the onslaught has abated. Then I make my move. I quickly follow up the seat-back jab with a combination right-hook of headphones in my ears and iPod on; and before he can gather himself, I blast the music and close my eyes: uppercut.
    Your writing style has really developed from your practical pickup days(not that it was bad before) keep up the great work!

  5. Geert says:

    None of your interns could have sacrificed himself? NO? djeez, good employees are hard to find these days :D

  6. Erika says:

    Lol :) there are mantras to use in this situation.

    My holiness is my salvation.

    The light has come. I have forgiven you, smelly bi man who’s showing me something I haven’t yet accepted in myself.

  7. SexyBack says:

    Great article. I wouldn’t have shown so much constraint and told the guy to back off in no uncertain terms.

    • Wendy says:

      Okay, I’ll admit – I came here through a link from another blog and didn’t read the blog name or the author’s name. And I assumed the author was female up until well past the “bi” part.

      This happens ALL THE TIME to women, particularly women who live in urban areas and take public transportation. It’s annoying as hell and often downright scary, because you never know when the guy who won’t take a hint will turn into the guy who will call you a bitch for rejecting him or the guy who will rape you in the parking lot once you get away from the crowd because he thinks he deserves the right to fuck you and you have no right to refuse.

  8. Christian says:

    You should have qualified him on politeness in A3 and frame the interaction further on more privacy.
    In all seriousness, I really have begun admiring your writing, you manage to draw the reader in and connect the story with an overall principle, really liked it.

  9. Zuperman says:

    “In short, it’s subtly dishonest, and it’s what leads to so-called “harsh rejections” or “buyer’s remorse” or low-quality interactions and relationships.”

    Good article, but while I agree that the above will tend to lead to “harsh rejections” it is most certainly not the sole cause. I`ve seen women shoot down men as hard as they can just for fun and just to validate themselves by putting the man who approached them down so low they themselves look higher up.

    • Mark Manson says:

      Yeah, it happens. But it’s not the norm. And honestly, if a girl is going to shoot you down just to feel good about themselves, then you’re better off not talking to her anyway.

      • Zuperman says:

        It is not the norm no but it does happen a lot. By doing this the women that do it make men a lot more scared to approach and so there will be more men that don`t and so less men to choose from.

        • Zac says:

          It doesn’t happen a lot to me, and who cares if some women suck? It happens sometimes sure but some men suck too. Some kids suck. Don’t dwell on it imo.

          • Zuperman says:

            It does`t happen a lot to me either. Really nuclear rejection I have never experienced. Condescending yes, but really harsh no. I do see it happen to others, usually when there is a large disparity between the attractiveness of the woman and the man.

            I have learnt to be rather immune to rejection but was terrified of it before. How an individual should ideally deal with it does not remove the importance of reducing this form of bad behavior. Most guys will experience an unnecessary rejection as very humiliating and it can stay with them for a long time.

          • Zac says:

            Dealing with bad rejection is a necessary part of growing up in life and becoming an adult.

  10. Almog says:

    I really enjoyed the writing here Mark. You definitely have a fun and descriptive way to draw someone in. I even found myself laughing out loud while having my pastel on Calle 10 ;)

    I was in 2 minds about this, initially feeling like you sound a bit like a victim in the post, describing how uncomfortable you felt throughout this entire thing but then waiting a really long time/amounts of incidents to actually express it in a clear, no double-meaning way.
    But then again I’m not sure anymore. I would have been hard to do…

    When I read it I wonder what I would do. I’d like to believe I’ve managed to understand and express my anger (which was a process for me) enough to say something like:

    “You’re making me really uncomfortable. I’m not interested in talking with you and definitely not in your advances.”

    Not that you’re in the world to teach people a lesson, but at least I would have felt that at least I expressed myself fully. Which is what I really care about. Would you have done anything differently?

    • Mark Manson says:

      Yeah, the problem was it was a 10+ hour flight. So I didn’t want to chew the guy out in the first 30 minutes if I was going to have to sit next to him the whole time. That’s why I kept hoping he’d just leave me alone.

      For what it’s worth, I’ve sat next to annoying people before, and just being quiet and putting my headphones on has always gotten rid of them.

      • kate says:

        he picked a place to hit on you where you couldn’t run away, banking on the fact that you wouldn’t want to seem rude or cause a stir by bluntly rejecting him.

        not to mention, if you had unambiguously told him no, you would get the condescending denials that he had ever been hitting on you in the first place–noooo, he was “just being friendly”, how dare you be so uppity and narcissistic?

        oh yes, I have dealt with the airplane/airport/crowded train/bus creeper before.

  11. Aaron says:

    Really enjoyed this one. You’ve outdone yourself again Mr. Manson :)

  12. Erika says:

    It is a beautifully written piece.

    As for women being treated this way, perhaps this is more stereotypically a female experience. However, I think we women need to take responsibility for what we create just as much as men do. I have universally found with men that when I get myself in alignment with mutual respect (rather than judging them) and clear honest communication, they have always respected my boundaries. And that was from my early sexual experiences forward. I have never lived in fear of being raped, even when I did “crazy” things like skinny dipping with groups of men or being in an isolated place with a man I didn’t know very well. And I think it’s so important that all of us – men and women – understand how powerfully we are creating our own experiences.

    • skeptic says:

      Is this Erika Awakenings? Ur 1 creepy broad!

    • Chris says:

      Other guys responding to you= Douchebags.

      You’re totally right. But you already knew that.

    • KRIs says:

      Well, a few men haven’t always respected my boundaries, despite my attempts at aligning them in mutual respect or what-have-you. Your strategy is a good one, sure, but please remember that some of us have tried to interact honestly with men and have still been hurt… in my case, raped. You can try all day to create your own experiences and take responsibility for what you create, but if someone really wants to take advantage of you, they still might be able to. And that is 100% on them. It’s not your fault.

      I promise I am not saying this with a chastising or warning tone. I just felt… almost a sense of judgment in what you wrote, like if we act in some particular way, no one will harm us. The underlying implication is that if you are harmed, you probably brought it on yourself in some way, small or large. You failed to be vigilant. There’s a good chance you do not actually feel that way, but I do hope you can understand why I perceived it as such.

  13. bENJAMIN says:

    I think your writing is only getting better. Really enjoyed the article.

  14. Traindom says:

    Nice writing! I liked the “trunk of a car” bit, hah. Damn, what a dick. That was just wrong. Don’t get me wrong, I’m progressive too but that infringing of boundaries was very inconsiderate.

    I’m honestly surprised you lasted as long as you did. I would have bolted the hell out of there as soon as the touching began. That was some creepy stuff.

  15. Paul T says:

    The difference is one of respect – specifically his lack of. Displaying your intention honestly when meeting a lovely lady for the first time is attractive when it is done from a place of respecting who she is as a person, and what she wants at that point of her life. As you say, creepyness is doing it without what she wants in mind.

  16. Cameron says:

    Great post, exceptionally well written too.

  17. David says:

    I’d probably have told the flight attendant about it – that’s just no way to treat folk on the plane, and he needed to be taught as much. Then I would’ve asked that he be moved.

    If it was at a bar, sure, I’d just change seat.

    • Wendy says:

      Talking to authority (flight attendant or otherwise) tends to result in things like

      “You must have been leading him on – why did you encourage him?”

      or

      “If you hadn’t been dressed like that, you wouldn’t have invited attention”

      or

      “Well when you go out in public, you have to expect people to talk to you sometimes! What are you, a stuck-up bitch who is too good to talk to normal people?”

      Oh wait, none of these would have happened, because Mark is a guy instead of a woman.

  18. Makeda says:

    Would it make sense if I say that the dividing line is when it feels like rape is on the horizon? Reading that, I was getting a little scared that he was going to drag you off to the bathroom and things were about to get real. For me, once you can sense a threat to your personal safety, all bets are off.

  19. Christian says:

    I remember my friends in high school I always got pissed at a girl whenever they got rejected, something about their reaction let me to believe there was seriously something devious and wrong with their character , and at the same time I think that women should perhaps be a bit more open and less condescending of men who approach that they don’t like. Some days I wished girls were more aggressive in letting me know their interest, usually it takes me a few hours or introspective days to understand their coded, subliminal messages. I remember this one chick kept asking me if I had a girlfriend or have ever dated. I kinda had a feeling she liked me, but she was always a bitch to me so I’m not sure what to think. sorry for rambling, it’s rather cathartic.

  20. Chris says:

    This is why you gotta go G4, ya digg?

  21. Chris says:

    My god, as one who naturally feels comfortable walking the line, I’m so glad I read this article.

    Mark, sometimes I doubt the value your blog has for me in my life, but then I read something that influences my views on important topics so fundamentally, and profoundly… it rockets my love for to almost fanboy levels. (…no homo…)

    You handled that situation much better than I would have. I can only imagine at least punching him a few times in the stomach (maybe while asking him if he liked it in spanish… some deep bdsm shit there? does that make me gay? lolol)

    Good luck, Have fun. ;)

  22. Chris says:

    ¿Te gusta eso?
    ¿Te gusta eso?
    Se siente bien?
    me dejan. maricón

  23. Jean says:

    Mark Manson, i’m gonna say this based not just in this post but in everything i read from you:

    You’re a man ahead of your time!

  24. Erika says:

    Could join the worldwide SlutWalk then. It’s all about being able to wear your jeans as tight as you want without being harassed. ;-p

  25. Koan says:

    Hi.

    I think you are overlooking a simple explanation why this situation was creepier than others. It is because you were stuck on a plane, surrounded by strangers. If the situation escalated, your standard options of fight/flight were reduced to fight.

    I think most sane people prefer flight. Why risk getting beat up, when you can avoid danger? Being cornered like that probably brings out some instinctual reactions that aren’t very rational.

    I’ve done cold approach in China, where public safety is a legitimate concern. I learned never to open in places where women didn’t feel like they could escape, ie elevators or public transit. It leads to some poor interactions.

  26. Lakshay Behl says:

    Awesome work, Mark.

    I think that when you say, “Who cares what she thinks, and who cares if she is creeped out?” automatically means… That a man is socially intelligent enough to know when he is being rejected and moves on. But there’s a difference between unintentionally creeping someone out (read… they’re just not into you) and forcing them to do what you want them to do (you are desperately into someone who’s not into you… eww).

    In this case the dude didn’t creep you out… He actually FORCED you. Or at least tried to. And that changes EVERYTHING.

    I have creeped women out in the past by simply offering them a ride home (and this was a woman who studies in the same class as me! Go figure!) and gotten away with approaching from behind and startling a woman. The difference was simply this… One wasn’t into me, and one was attracted. When a woman is attracted, your game doesn’t matter. All that matters is that you make the leading move at the three crucial points. When she isn’t, game still doesn’t matter. You are not going to get her to fall for you. She will judge you. No matter what you do you will always be in the wrong. Ask any husband and he will tell you how wrong he is all the time! Because the attraction has vanished. Poof!

    So this (bisexual man) is not what women normally refer to as creepy, it is downright harassment. Calling someone ten times a day is harassment if they don’t want to talk, and if you have no relationship with them.

  27. Zuperman says:

    I have been to gay bars and clubs several times and have been hit on relentlessly by gay men when I`ve been there. There seems to be an almost cruising like element to a lot of the approaches they make where they will start to touch, sometimes go straight for a kiss without talking, but just a gentle nudge with your hand will make them leave you alone and they move quickly on to the next one. Because there are so many gay men that are down for just going straight to sex you will see some approaches and some behavior that would be seen as very creepy and harassing if done by a man towards a woman but I think must be seen as gay culture. I DO NOT see this guys behavior in this light, precisely because he did not respect your no. I agree with your analysis. But I just thought it was an interesting point in terms of how one interprets what is creepy and what is disrespectful and what is just being very forward depending on context, culture etc.

  28. Edmond says:

    Well written, Mark and hilarious as well. Your writing skills improved a lot in the last few months :)

  29. Mykel Cross says:

    aww, Marky had his first sexual domination experience! Not to undermine your analysis. I think it’s excellent. But I also think it’s a bit emotionally charged (you do precede it with “fuck you”).

    I might know what you were feeling. It sounds similar to an experience I had years ago. I felt powerless. It was like, I wanted to say no but wasn’t in control for some reason. Someone else finally pulled me away. Something about the newness of the experience made me vulnerable and the guy took advantage of that by pursuing me despite my resistance. If he were straight and getting in my face, I would have stood up for myself but again, I felt vulnerable and dominated. The social dynamic seemed to somehow extricate my individuality – my normal ability to resist and forcefully say no.

    You were non-confrontational. Is that because you wanted to maintain your moral uprightness? Or, was it similar to my experience where you just didn’t feel like yourself? If so, the resentment you may be feeling may be kind of a retrospective retaliation for being made to feel emasculated. Again, I respect if your experience was different, I’m just offering mine to the discussion.

    • Mark Manson says:

      Yeah, I think I was mostly non-confrontational because I just had no idea what to do, I had never really been put in that situation before. I also think that because I was stuck next to the guy for 10 hours, I wanted to try to diffuse the situation without confrontation if at all possible.

      The comment about extricating your individuality is really interesting, especially about how that seems to only occur in situations of sexual domination. I think, looking back, like you, had the situation NOT been sexually charged — i.e., he was a straight guy just being an asshole — I would have been a lot more comfortable standing up for myself.

  30. Dr. knight says:

    Thanks for clarifying the difference between creepiness and genuine flirting. Some guys unintentionally, or maybe unknowingly, fall into the creepy area without realizing it. Sometimes it seems like a grey area but you really put it in perspective here. Well done!

  31. Andy says:

    I don’t think that guy is putting his hands on the pants of random Venezuelan dudes in public transport.

    Because he’d be betting on losing a few teeth. Or worse.

    He definitely crossed a line there. Such unsolicited sexual touching is unacceptable. If a man does that on a woman the way he did, she has every right in the world to slap him hard.

  32. Zuperman says:

    “Dealing with bad rejection is a necessary part of growing up in life and becoming an adult.”

    So is not rejecting people in a harsh way. Are you seriously suggesting men just such it up and don`t raise their voices at women rejecting them rudely and harshly? Would you suggest that women just suck it up too and not raise their voices in an area of their lives where they are treated harshly by men because dealing with shitty behavior from other people is part of becoming an adult? Do you not see that the more this type of cruel behavior is allowed to persist the more badly people will treat each other in other areas of life as well. Seriously, when someone treats other people badly that is something that should be addressed and reduced. It is typical that when a certain type of bad behavior only affects men the men are told to just grow up and take it as a man. It shows a lack of empathy for men. This is the standard strategy used to avoid addressing mens problems “just take it as a man”. Mens problems are always attempted to be INDIVIDUALIZED” so that it is the problem of the individual man to deal with while women’s problems are seen as collective problems that merit sympathy and should be addressed by us all. If men are just going to take this type of cruel behavior why should we bother about men approaching women in creepy ways? Shouldn`t they just learn to deal with that as part of becoming an adult?

    • Tim says:

      Jesus christ man, grow a pair and stop whining. All you MRA guys have the most obvious victim mentalities.

    • Zac says:

      Dude, honestly, I don’t care about what other people do. I’m worried about myself. Part of being an adult is realizing some people suck and it doesn’t matter how some random girl that you approach responds to you. You are whining so bad right now. Cruel behavior is going to go on forever and there are people starving and you are sitting here acting like the fact that some women act bitchy is a world class problem. Go out, don’t be a dick, avoid people who are dicks, profit.

      When men approach women in creepy ways it makes them feel like they are in danger. Do you feel like you are in danger when you get your feelings hurt? No. You get your feelings hurt. Something that is 100% completely in your control as well. If you are a secure human being someone saying something completely off base and mean to you won’t even bother you. You will let it roll right off you. If you are insecure I can see why some random woman being mean to you might really get you all riled up.

      I’ve walked up to guys and had them be assholes to me just as much as I’ve walked up to women and had the same problem. Want to know the common thread? I don’t give a shit and I forget about it 5 minutes later. I’m not some warrior out there fighting for the greater good trying to convince every girl who acts bitchy out of insecurity to behave normally. I don’t have time to delve into their psychology and work them through all the life problems they probably have had to deal with that make them act that way. I just get over it and move on to talk to the other 7.5 billion people.

      The main difference between a guy creeping a girl out and a girl being a bitch when you approach her is YOU choose to put yourself in the situation where a girl is a bitch to you by approaching absolute strangers. If I approached absolutely strange men for sex I’ll bet I’d get treated rudely as well. A woman doesn’t ask to be hit on by a creepy guy, it’s something that happens to her and she has no control over it. If you want random strange women not to be a bitch to you because you approached them out of sexual interest and can’t handle rejection stop doing it. For a woman to not get creeped on by some random strange guy, her options are much more limited than yours. Apples and oranges.

      Seriously. Why don’t you try walking up to a bunch of men and act all sexually interested and see how nice they are to you. I’ll bet some are huge assholes. This is because you are approaching people with sexual interest and some people react very negatively to that. I’ll bet you wouldn’t be really really upset though that all those guys acted dickish to you. You’d just chalk it up to “they were offended at my advance that was obviously sexually motivated” and wouldn’t call for a movement.

      • Christian says:

        Well said, We have no idea what goes on in people’s lives sometimes, and maybe some rejections aren’t personal, i mean how could they be. The think the term rejection should be replaced by something else. But anyway why get hurt feelings over someone who doesn’t even know you, too sensitive. Too much emphasis being placed upon such small interactions. I always think of great leaders and how they raised fuckin armies and conquered lands, and I have been scared to approach a girl. I truly understand Confidence now and why it’s so attractive. Someone who is confident is very self-assuring and can be thought of as reliable and trustworthy at least to a degree. While that guy who is scared seems a bit sketchy.

      • S says:

        I’m all for people taking total responsibility for everything in their lives, including interactions with shitty people, but the idea that the fact that there’s people starving in the world somehow negates the realness of social pain doesn’t hold up to scrutiny. It’s been established that the brain processes and feels social pain as deep as it would process and feel the body being stuck with a red hot poker. It’s debatable that people are pained by starvation more than social pain. See this article about the matter: http://theviewfromhell.blogspot.com/2011/05/maslow-be-damned-how-social-belonging.html

        • Mark Manson says:

          I think Zac’s point isn’t that the social pain doesn’t hurt, it’s that it’s something you have to get over and get used to. I would agree with him.

          Unlike something like hunger, or getting hit in the face with a hammer, social pain is malleable. That bitchy girl can go from ruining your week to being an after-thought, depending on your perspective and how much you value/perceive yourself.

  33. Ron says:

    For a while I’ve been always confused on the site’s concept of being uninhibited (which I support) but then where the line is drawn.

    For instance, while I CAN walk up to every girl with big breasts and uninhibited-ly say that I think she’s sexy and I want to plow her in between her chest in my bed, That clearly isn’t the BEST option. And I’m sure this Site doesn’t advocate that, even if it is uninhibited. Else Mark would simply say that in his book. Yet its ok to walk up to girl and just say you simply find her sexy, without all the details mentioned earlier. It confuses me.

    Only an extremely small percentage of girls would respond positively to the more explicit one as a conversation starter. Which is still inefficient considering you could actually just walk up and introduce yourself, then later after you both got to know her, flirt a little, then you drop the line, (as you expressing yourself, not actually line) It would most likely end more positively numbers wise. Not that I’m objectifying it as pure numbers, but c’mon.

    Assuming you aren’t “steamrolling” over anyone’s boundaries and will unneedily walk away when she says she’s not interested because you respect her and her right to choose, where’s the line? What MAKES the first one worse to say than the second one. Is it not more uninhibited?

    • Mark Manson says:

      I say in the book that you CAN say stuff like the first one (and I even give an example), but I point out that it’s far more polarizing because you’re demanding greater investment from her upfront.

      This is different. If this man had said to me, “I’m gay, and I’d love to fuck you,” and then completely left me alone after I said no, or dropped it and became friendly and respectful of my space, I wouldn’t have had problems with him. Like I said in the article, I’ve had gay guys flat out say to me, “I want to have sex with you,” and not had a problem with it.

      It becomes disrespectful and creepy when you (or in this case he) ignores the boundary of the other person.

  34. Zorro says:

    Dear Mark,

    The first problem with your definition of creepy as overstepping personal boundaries is that personal boundaries are entirely subjective. Many women define the simple ‘direct approach and then leave if she says no’ that you advocate as creepy. There’s a lot of anecdotal evidence to support this view from many different men. So if the threshold for personal boundaries can be defined as “asking me out straight away” for some women and “he persisted for half an hour and put his hand on my thigh” for others how is the approaching man supposed to act? To guarantee that he won’t be perceived as creepy he shouldn’t approach at all, a viewpoint which I’m sure you don’t espouse.

    The consent part is fairly meaningless in this case here – how are we to know if the woman has consented to being flirted with? There are many examples of initially cold women who have opened up after a lot of persistence, and whereas they would not have initially consented to the interaction, they would have done ten minutes in.

    Furthermore, you do not have the right to not be talked to. You do not have the right not to feel threatened. Your rights extend only to the point where the other person does not break the law. If he’s hitting on you incessantly, the onus is on you to be assertive and tell him in no uncertain terms to stop otherwise you will tell the steward, and that you have no interest in his proposal. Any mewling about how he was “inconsiderate of my boundaries” does not mean he should not be allowed to make a move. It only shows that he is inconsiderate.

    Finally I have a theory as to why Mark and women feel this way about unwanted advances (and that they are seen to cross boundaries by virtue of being unwanted) , and the argument behind why women shouldnt have a right not to be hit on unwantedly by strangers, preserving the freedom of the parties involved.

    The feeling of “crossing boundaries” is very much attributable to a feeling of disgust – the point being that no wanted advances (no matter how aggressive) are seen as crossing boundaries no matter how aggressive and/or persistent the advance is (has anyone ever had aggression and/or persistence work for them? Exactly). Unwanted advances cut across a huge spectrum of aggressiveness, but the thing they have in common is that they are unwanted. My theory is that the same feeling of revulsion you have when an obese chick hits on you, no matter how aggressively, is the same feeling of revulsion a woman feels when hit on, no matter how aggressively, by the majority of men (as most men are not immediately attractive to a woman).

    This leads on to my argument that women should put up with non-lawbreaking advances, simply because they’re justifiably paying a cost for their higher standards. For men, it takes an obese chick to disgust them, but most girls hitting on them are OK, even desirable. For most women, the situation is reversed. Women are simply paying, in annoyances, for their selectiveness. This seems a fair trade-off to me when the alternative is either marginalizing the majority of men until they stop making any advances at all, or even expanding harassment laws to unreasonable levels. Both these possible alternatives result in the sexual repression of men, and are actually a small loss to women – they won’t get hit on by some men that they find attractive but who are discouraged from doing so.

    I urge you to reconsider, Mark. Even though it’s a good thing to see things from other people’s perspective, it changes nothing here.

    • Mark Manson says:

      I definitely think you’re kind of missing the point here. This isn’t about legality. It’s about practicality and respect.

      Yes, people have a right to hit on me even if I don’t want them to, just like people have a right to hit on girls even if the girls don’t want them to. And yes, the idea of invading someone else’s autonomy is subjective and is going to differ from person to person.

      BUT knowing this, as a man who hits on women, it informs you as to what methods of pursuing women are very likely to creep them out and which one’s aren’t. And it allows you to adjust your behavior accordingly.

      • Zorro says:

        So are you arguing a practical argument (“persistence doesn’t work”), a moral argument (“you should care about other people’s social boundaries”), or both? The practical argument falls down by itself – some women do reward persistence, so there is a net benefit to pushing it as far as you can in all cases. When you don’t persist, you’re the one shouldering the cost… by not hooking up with the women that reward persistence.

        The moral argument is interesting but falls down on an instrumental level. I did say that boundaries are completely subjective, and that if you take my theory to be true that all people see unwanted attention as boundary-crossing, then respecting people’s boundaries means never propositioning them at all.

        Speaking of the legality not being relevant here, I think it’s completely relevant. You will not be punished by persistence whether it works or whether it doesn’t, if you stay within the bounds of the law. Since persistence confers a net benefit, why should you care if you cross a woman’s boundaries? If the girl leaves like you did to Mr. Halitosis then you know the attention was unwanted anyway, so you lost nothing. However once you start not persisting you start losing out on the benefits.

        • Zac says:

          Hey man, you can argue all you want, but if you go out and act like a creep your results are going to suffer. If you need to go out and be so disrespectful to people’s boundaries to get laid, you suck and people won’t want to hang out with you.

          • Zorro says:

            So you’re saying being persistent works against you results-wise? Unless persistence turns off girls who liked you in the first place then there’s no way it can work against you.

          • Zac says:

            There is a difference between persistence and a complete lack of social awareness and you are definitely mixing the two up together. Yes, if you are way too persistent and creepy and don’t know how to chill out, you will lose women who would otherwise be interested in you. You will be socially awkward and not get as good of results. You are really arguing a case for being extremely socially awkward. Sure you will get what you want sometimes, but the rest of the time you are just an overbearing asshole. You have every right to be an overbearing asshole, but you will probably get less results.

        • Mark Manson says:

          You misrepresent both arguments that I would make.

          The practical argument is not that persistence doesn’t work (it does, some times), it’s that persisting in giving unwanted sexual attention is both inefficient and, even when it works, leads to unpleasant and unenjoyable interactions.

          I cover this in A LOT of detail in my book “Models.”

          I’m less sold on the moral argument, but I do believe that if at all possible, we should always be respectful and courteous to people until proven otherwise.

          When it comes to pick up, my “official” advice is this and has been this for a long time: be sexually assertive and upfront, force the issue out of her (i.e., remove any ambiguity as to her what her interests are), and if she’s not interested and/or she’s creeped out, then move on and talk to someone else.

          Persisting in the face of someone who doesn’t like you or doesn’t want to talk to you, even though it can “work” (as in you still have sex with them), it creates an interaction and relationship based on disregard for her autonomy, thus creating the sense of fighting an uphill battle the entire time just to get into her pants.

          In my experience, the only women this “works” on are women with lower self esteem and weak boundaries — women I’m not exactly thrilled to be having sex with anyway.

          I don’t think it’s a coincidence that most of the men I meet who subscribe to the philosophy of plowing through objections and rejections are usually the same men who complain about women with lame personalities or receiving bitchy rejections.

          There are a social psychological studies that show exactly this — that if a man ignores a woman’s boundaries and autonomy when he hits on her, they will end up with women who ignore their boundaries and autonomy (i.e., drama queens, cockteases, cheaters, etc.).

          No thank you.

          The fact that you blame women — all of women, I may add — for having “too high of standards” strikes me that you’re doing something wrong.

          • Zorro says:

            You’re making a lot of points here, so I’ll be a while.

            Firstly yes if you adopt a strategy of “I’ll push it as far as I can possibly go” then not crossing boundaries is not something you particularly care about, and so complaining about some bitchy reactions seems unjustified. I totally agree with you here.

            Second I’m not accusing all women of having higher standards, I’m saying that women as a gender tend to have much higher standards for hooking up – this is trivially true, my favourite example is entry into nightclubs (having girls with you will get you in earlier, girls don’t tend to pay as much or at all for entry). If not this then you can look at things like age of viriginity loss, median number of sexual partners up to age 30, or other similar metrics, women generally score far higher than men on these which tends to indicate an asymmetrical relationship in terms of standards. I’m saying that being unwantedly approached more regularly and persistently is a cost that women as a gender pay for (much) higher standards. This seems fair enough to me.

            “Persistence only works on low self esteem women” – while I can’t refute your own (extensive) experience I’d be wary of making statements like “only works on”. This is something you yourself warn men of when other people say “all women respond to X trait” or “all women are dirty sluts” etc. and quite rightly so. You expand on this with assortment theory which seems fair enough. However most of the assortative mating studies have been done on marital couples, and with very small sample sizes. That said I’m no expert on it by any means, so if you have various peer-reviewed studies that unequivocally show a strong correlation between mating and self-esteem levels or between mating and ‘respect for autonomy’ levels (if that can even be measured) then by all means link them.

            Finally if the quality of the interaction is more important than the amount of sex you get from physically attractive women, then you might be correct in not advocating pushing it as far as possible. If most people find that strategy less enjoyable than the additional sex they’ll get, then fair enough. I contend that this isn’t the case for most men, at least the vast majority, who don’t have sex with multiple attractive women on tap, so to speak.

            I disagree with your reply to my practical argument. It’s not that persistence “works sometimes”, it’s that persistence always works when it can work, and it never doesn’t work when it can work. It’s about maximising the results (sex) you get, and persistence, I argue, is a maximising strategy.

            You say “even when it works it leads to unpleasant and un enjoyable interactions”. I’m saying that maximising gains you more pleasure than you lose with the decreased quality of interactions you get when you persist. Maybe you disagree with this in principle, but I think if the goal is trying to give men more and/or better sexual options then we should probably take this to be true.

          • Mark Manson says:

            Sex is a poor metric for “success.” When men move the goal posts further back and expect more from themselves than simply getting their dick wet, their dating lives, sex lives and emotional lives improve drastically.

            Both psychological research and vast amounts of personal experience with myself and hundreds of clients back this up.

            Seeking purely sex without engaging the emotions within yourself and within the women you speak to usually leads to a pretty empty place, and often generates a lot of frustration and misogyny in men, even if they do happen to have sex often. It’s an objectified and disembodied way of fulfilling one’s emotional needs, therefore it’s ineffective.

            I enjoy sex as much as the next guy, but it’s not the goal line that I’m trying to reach… rather, it’s just another inevitable step in finding emotionally enjoyable and fulfilling interactions with women I meet. Once you accomplish that, the sex naturally happens as a side-effect (and often with far less effort and frustration).

            If you’re purely after sex, yes there are plenty of unpleasant and unenjoyable strategies you can take that will successfully end up in sex…

            BUT what fun is sex if you feel like you have to “earn” it from a woman? You may as well go hire a prostitute if that’s how you feel about your sex life.

            And for what it’s worth, I get laid far more often and with far less effort since I adopted this philosophy. So there’s that. It’s not only far more efficient and ethical, but also more enjoyable.

            And to answer your question, yes, the effort required to persist with a girl who is not interested in me is not worth having the lousy, manipulative sex that results.

  35. Leo says:

    Mark, conociste Caracas? Es una bonita ciudad, aunque insegura como el tipo dijo. Que pena!

    • Mark Manson says:

      Leo, solo pasé un día alla. Creo que tu país ha estado sufriendo desde saliste. La naturaleza fue bonita pero la ciudad fue sucio y la gente no parecieron feliz o saludable. Una elección ya terminó y estuvieron señales para Chavez en TODOS las calles: “Chavez es la corazon de Venezuela,” “Chavez es Libertad,” “Chavez es El Hijo de Patria Mia.” Fue asco. :(

      Quisiera regresar alla, pero exploraría la naturaleza en el sur y en la costa en el norte.

      • Leo says:

        Si Mark, lo que esta pasando en mi pais es muy triste, por eso vivo en USA. Es una pena total y lo que dices es muy cierto, describe muy bien lo que esta pasando alla. Espero algun dia puedas visitar los bellos lugares naturales que ofrece Venezuela.

  36. russ says:

    I don’t think that was halitosis on his breath…

  37. flashawesomo says:

    I find it strange that after living for 60 years this guy had no idea how to not be such a creep. It just goes to show age isn’t really something that matters much, at least as far as things like this goes.

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