No More Mr. Nice Guy and self improvement

[seele]

I started reading "No More Mr. Nice Guy". I reached the page with lists of things man admit to do, to please others. Gym. Dancing. Nice hair. Nice clothes. Having career.

Shit, it's all I am doing.

I took some advice from Mark very seriously, like hitting the Gym (it's 8 months I am training three times a week, keeping my weight and increasing weight) and dressing well. I live alone (since I am 19), I join dancing classes Salsa. And for the first fucking time in my life I am consciously trying to get longer hair to look better (I always hated having long hair and kept them short, so they are easy to dry and I don't need a comb).

But now I read this stuff and I wonder, whether I am not doing it really to please others. And it's damn hard to deny, that I am doing it to get attention from ladies. Isn't it just seeking validation from them? I don't really know. How am I supposed to diagnose, whether I am doing this stuff to please others?

[Leo]

You are making youserl more atractive and as a result you are gonna get more attention from the chicks. The girls do the same thing, they are on a diet, go to the gym, get some education, etc. Make yourself more attractive because you want to do it and as a result you are gonna get more attention from the opposite sex. It's normal to try to get validation from others, we live in a society, but sometimes you do stuff just to please yourself and you don't care about people's opinion. I think it's a delicate balance, be true to yourself (for example I'm atheist and I don't care what people think about me) but at the same time respect others and try to be liked by them (I respect others religion).
If you don't want to go to the gym and take care of yourself because you choose to do it that way then to be congruent with your decision you shouldn't care about getting attention from girls. Do whatever pleases you, the goal for a lot of guys in this forum is to get laid with as many girls as possible, so they act accordingly without compromising their core values.

[Mark]

You are doing it for others but you are also doing it because you care about yourself. Self improvement usually begins with an external motivation and ends up as an internal motivation. The question is... How do these things make you feel? Do you feel good about going to the gym for 8 months? If not then yeah you need to evaluate your motivations. But I imagine you feel great about it. Nothing wrong with that.

It all comes back to motivation and intention. Almost anything can be harmful or helpful, the question is why you're doing it.

[Reesays]

you don't have to be a complete a** to get laid, you can be a nice guy, just don't be a pushover

[seele]

Thanks a lot for your replies.

I love working out the gym. And I do love how I look in a well fitting blazer. But I am afraid that this is something that starts to define me. It doesn't really improve my character, it hasn't improved last half a year. I am the same guy that I was before, I just changed my priorities. I am getting afraid, that without all those (in my opinion superficial) aspects, there is little left. I don't read as much as I did, I don't work on personal projects. Instead I focused my life on becoming better in ways, that are supposed to get me laid.

I am looking at my past and I see, I was actually happier living in my home country, earning much less (it was eastern Europe, wages are much smaller there) and doing more of stuff, that I liked. I focused my life on improving it towards getting laid and it seems false.

I talked recently with a close friend of mine, with whom I was in a relationship. She was very impressed, by how I look now, but she also said, that I changed a lot and not all is good and I am pretending in some ways. She liked me more, when I was geeky guys, who had real passions, that could be in no way considered sexy. Well, to be honest role playing games, open source software or reading seems like hardly stuff that I could impress women with, unless she is into nerds.

It's not that I don't like the gym or being more fashionable. But I won't be able to talk with friends about dead lift and new shirt for the whole night. And I am perfectly aware, that it might be hard to pick up a girl on being 17th level paladin and killing dragons (this is a joke, I never played D&D, been a paladin or killed a dragon ;-) ). Isn't it a part of being a nice guy? Believing I should be into sports or travel or dancing, rather than being creative and imaginative and being proud of it? Or spending evening solving some complex algorithmic problem or improving software, that people use all around the world, not even knowing that?


I have this feeling, that one needs to adjust to the world and its expectations. When I turned into this guy, that did some sports (earlier martial arts, now gym), partied a lot and wear slim fit shirts I started getting laid. But I don't think I changed a lot inside. Rather I presented some false persona (and actually started integrating with it) and used it to get laid. It seems like a negation of what I read about having integrity as a man.

[baller08]

Seele -

3 questions for you.

1) How old are you?
2) What do you do for a living?
3) Where do you live?
4) What is the most embarrassing thing that has happened to you that you are willing to share with us?

[seele]

I am 27 year old software engineer living in Zurich.

I don't think I want to share embarrassing things that happened to me.

[SeXyBaCk]

Seele

It feels like to me you haven't quite identified your core issue yet that is keeping you from being happy. It sounds like your social circle right now might be a bit superficial and that might be underwhelming to bright guy like you. I live in Switzerland myself and I'm aware that socialising here is more slow paced and conservative than in other countries. But I basically think you should start hanging out with other people.

Dressing well and keeping fit/healthy is not selling your soul to the devil, but they should be nothing more but mere routines in your lifestyle, not the main activities. Exercise for me is a physical experience I enjoy and not some self improvement project. There's no denying though we dress well for others, at the same time though there's a self worth/respect element to it. It's not all for external validation. You take time to look your best because you like and love yourself.

Anyway, tha'ts just all attitude stuff. You come across as if you haven't quite found your balanced lifestyle yet. At some point you're going to have to ask yourself what it is you really want.

[Chaos]

Coming from kind of the same place you have (role playing, programming, nerdy talks about star trek and all that stuff), you have to find a place to balance the extremes.

The problem with all that is your demographics are really narrow. Sure, there're some girls that are into geeky guys, but not many. Improving your looks, working on your social skills, doesn't mean abandoning everything else. You can still enjoy role playing or video games (I still do) but you won't do it so often because you have other things in your life. I don't play that much any more because most of my time is buried with salsa classes, sports, going out and all that stuff, and that's a conscious choice because I enjoy that other stuff as much as I used to enjoy a good rpg. Still I usually see the last Fringe or Doctor Who episode as soon as I can because I really love the shows and I've been known to post some of the most memorable phrases of the Doctor as my status in facebook.

Both aspects can live together once you find balance to them. If you feel like you're losing yourself that's probably because you've put to much weight into one side of the balance. And, having a girl tell you that you've changed is neither a good nor bat. Is a fact of life and actually changing is GOOD ... means your moving and I think that just moving is as important as where you're going (we have a good sense of what's good and bad, the problem with most people is they just keep doing the same things and expect results to change by themselves).

[baller08]

Seele -

I have a friend Jenny and she lives in Birmensdorf. I think you would really like her...she majored in Chemical Engineering, but didn't like the field so she changed gears and is .NET developer now. She started a Math Club in college, she loves science fiction novels, and is totally into the whole nerdy, free thinking, absent minded professor type of guys.

Here's a pic of her: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v125/b.../Jenny.jpg



What's the matter? You don't want to meet her? Why not? She has everything you said you wanted in a girl and she likes nerdy guys!

Oh she's not attractive! Well, you didn't say you needed a girl to be attractive too. But why should she have to work on her body and have a pretty face and be sweet and feminine?

Why should she have to work on all that just to get a guy?! Why can't you want her just for her interests since they're so similar to yours? You have so much in common!

I know for a fact that she is more than happy to spend an evening with you "solving some complex algorithmic problem or improving software that people around the world will use".

What's that? All that doesn't matter because you're not attracted to her? Ok, I see.

Well, I have another friend, Ashely and she looks like this: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v125/b...Ashley.jpg

She's also likes nerdy guys, but she doesn't know much about software development.

But you'll be willing to get to know her a little better and give her a chance? Why? Oh...because you're attracted to her. Ok...I see.

---

You see what I'm getting it right? The things you do to make yourself more attractive is something that is your responsibility. Just like it's a woman's responsibility to stay in shape and do the feminine things that give them the largest amount of choices in men.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the things you like. But a woman needs to be ATTRACTED to you first before she takes the time to know your interest.

You working out, taking dance classes, dressing better is no more fake than Ashley's looks. It's a part of her that's important.

There is nothing fake about being more attractive and being more healthy. Because let's face it....Jenny isn't more "real"...is she?

We don't share every single thing about ourselves when we date someone at first.....just like you're not willing to share the most embarrassing thing that has happened to you with us. That's perfectly normal...it's social etiquette. Imagine if you went around sharing that everytime you went on a job interview or upon meeting your co-workers?

When you date a woman, let your attractive side of yourself draw her in so she takes the time to know the OTHER sides of you that is your passions, interests, and goals. Then not only will the woman love you for them, she'll be thrilled that she had to invest time to get to know you first before you shared those parts of your life.

You're on the right track and Sexyback and Chaos though put it best:

Quote:Dressing well and keeping fit/healthy is not selling your soul to the devil, but they should be nothing more but mere routines in your lifestyle, not the main activities.

Quote: Improving your looks, working on your social skills, doesn't mean abandoning everything else. You can still enjoy role playing or video games (I still do) but you won't do it so often because you have other things in your life. Both aspects can live together once you find balance to them.

[Chaos]

Dips on Ashely!!

[baller08]

You're an asshole, Chaos. She'll like Seele better. You can have Jenny. Lol!

[seele]

SeXyBaCk, Chaos, thanks, I will try to find more balance, while staying focused on important things, like being healthy and well groomed.

baller08, I didn't specified anywhere here what I am looking for in a girl. I merely pointed out, that I traded things that gave me satisfaction and pleasure for things, that help me get laid. It's hard to be a man of integrity, unless you can clearly and honestly tell anyone, that you work out or dress well to have sex. I could run or play soccer and stay scrawny, yet healthy and don't get benefit of looking better. But if someone is passionate about running, should he try to get muscled silhouette instead?

What I infer from your post, is that if I want the girl to be attractive, fit and look good, I shall offer the same thing. Sounds fair. This is something I can live with.

[Tim]

(05-05-2012 12:13 AM)seele Wrote:  But if someone is passionate about running, should he try to get muscled silhouette instead?

Definitely not. Do what you enjoy first and foremost, because you can't just 'create' passion and interest in your life out of nothing. You just have to accept where it comes from and follow it there. If you'd prefer to run than work out then do the former. Doesn't sound like that is the case for you though?

[seele]

Oh, I hate running. Lifting weights is actually one thing, that I like doing. But I tried martial arts before and managed to do this for year, even though it gave me very little pleasure. I did it for specific reason to become more confident, fit and well, to know what to do in dangerous situation. But without receiving any kind of pleasure, it was hard to find passion in it.

But if I understand correctly, one should take care of being healthy and fit, but how he achieves this end is his choice. One simply has to try different things and find out, what he can turn into something he will be passionate about.

[Alvar]

(05-05-2012 12:32 PM)seele Wrote:  Oh, I hate running. Lifting weights is actually one thing, that I like doing. But I tried martial arts before and managed to do this for year, even though it gave me very little pleasure. I did it for specific reason to become more confident, fit and well, to know what to do in dangerous situation. But without receiving any kind of pleasure, it was hard to find passion in it.

Martial arts= skill
Salsa class= skill

You can do both of these because you enjoy them or because you want to feel physically secure and know how to dance. Once you've reached a certain skill level you shouldn't need to keep on practising regularly to feel confident on your abilities.

Could this be the case of your self-perception trailing your reality? The nerdy guy that finds himself popular and socially confident and is not yet comfortable in his skin?

[baller08]

Quote:baller08, I didn't specified anywhere here what I am looking for in a girl.

You absolutely did. You implied it by stating that you want a woman to like being able to spend time with you doing things that are not of high interest to women in general. But that's beside the point.

Quote:It's hard to be a man of integrity, unless you can clearly and honestly tell anyone, that you work out or dress well to have sex.

No it's not. Ashley up there doesn't have to tell you that she...

- Works out 3 times a week doing cardio and yoga
- Does her nails every two weeks and waxes once a month
- Reads certain women's magazines to know the latest fashions
- Learned how to apply make up properly from her aunt.

She doesn't need to tell you you all that for you to be attracted to her. All you're attracted to is the finished product. If you dated her you may find all those things out, but it won't matter then because you'll also know her for all the other aspects of her personality and mind.

She can tell you other more substaincial things about her life and you'll care because she's already taken care of her responsibilities to be as attractive as possible.

Quote:What I infer from your post, is that if I want the girl to be attractive, fit and look good, I shall offer the same thing. Sounds fair. This is something I can live with.

Bingo. If you didn't understand anything else I was saying....this right here was the most important anyway. That's it. Everything else what Chaos and Sexyback said already covers it.

You're actually in a very good position, Seele. You're coming to the point where you're learning how to merge what you think are two separate sides of your life. They're not separate. It's not fake. You're learning how to be an attractive man and at the same time being able to share other parts of you that isn't "main stream". That's perfectly ok and not only is it "ok"...it's desirable.

Keep doing what you're doing and asking what you're asking. You're on a very good path and so long as you're improving on both sides of your life, they will eventually merge together.

[The Notorious PhD]

(05-05-2012 12:32 PM)seele Wrote:  I did it for specific reason to become more confident, fit and well, to know what to do in dangerous situation.

Public service announcement:

For nearly all bar/club/street fight situations...walking away is the best strategy (the Nash equilibrium, if you will). I don't care how skilled you are. This advice is from a friend of mine - a Golden Gloves, champion boxer.

Great confidence-builder though, I agree.

That is all. Carry on...

[Alvar]

http://postmasculine.com/how-to-survive-a-street-fight

[seele]

The Notorious PHD, Alvar: I am aware of that. I was in two situations though, were I was completely unable to walk away, because the fight just started. One of recurring themes in the martial art class was avoiding the fight. Sometimes there is just no way to do this.