30-year-old virgin, blind first dates, what next?

[kaizen]

Hey guys,

I'm a 30-year-old virgin. I am providing more background about myself below, because I think those who are seriously interested in showing me the way forward will need to know that.

Been to about 15 blind dates in the past year exclusively through online dating. Most have been first dates only (either me or her, or both disinterested after that), but I've seen a few girls 3-4 times. My two major questions are about what to do after the first date which went well, and how to get close to the girl physically and emotionally.

I'm in a dilemma as to whether I should try to text/talk to her after a nice blind first date to keep her in the loop and show my continued interest, or just contact her only before setting up the second date. My two friends - both have been quite successful with girls - have completely opposite suggestions. Sometimes I feel like I've suffered because I didn't contact her for a week or longer and things fizzled out. At other times, I feel like I'm sabotaging it by trying to text too often and have a "conversation over text" when there's really not much to talk about.

Girls never text me on their own, even the one who I saw four times. Not a single text from her over 1.5 month. Frankly, she probably fled away because I chickened out and didn't get physical. Sometimes, I fee like I need to lose my virginity by whatever means, and maybe that would help the situation. Your opinion?

So back to the original question: how to maintain contact after a good first date and how to get closer with a girl given my background below? Specific date suggestions to get closer to a girl?

This is my first time posting on any forum. I hope this group will jolt me in a positive way and give specific suggestions based on their real-life experiences.

About me:
----------
I'm a 30-year-old virgin. I'm a classic case of a guy who's been reading books in this area for 2-3 years but haven't done cold approach. But I'd say this, Mark's is the only book that speaks to me and I can relate to. I can't dress eccentric or do weird tricks. I'm a professional, overall quite sociably calibrated and liked, and have been dressing very nicely since I started working 6 months ago. Got compliments from several of my female colleagues (but they're middle-age or my age, but married).

I fit Mark's description of Type II personality very well (http://www.practicalpickup.com/guide-to-...th-women). I'm not at all self-conscious on the first dates and often have very free-flowing conversation with the girl. I usually take them for trailer food or coffee, talk easily for 1 hour or so, and then take to a second location and talk. My first dates have been great lately, but not sure whether I should try to kiss the girl because it's a blind date. I often hug them after walking them up to their car. Wonder if that has any adverse effect? The point is I've never been able to generate enough interest in them. They never ever contact me on their own even after 3-4 dates! Is that normal? Reached second base with only one girl when I suggested we watch movie at her place for the third meetup.

I'm from south Asia (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh), moved to US couple of years ago for grad school in a technical field. For a variety of reasons and upbringing, never approached girls during my college and most of grad school. Now I'm trying, results haven't been great -- but if I look at the improvements, especially given the relatively small amount of effort I have put so far, I think the results are very encouraging. I like American college girls, and especially white girls. Maybe I've a complex with regard to the white girls, and that generates anxiety. I like them for their strong personality (don't get attracted to wallflower white girls, of course), fun nature, and for being physically fit or sporty. I live in a very vibrant college town and curse myself for not approaching the college girls. But I really don't have that kind of college circle here (remember I'm 30 and working, and these girls are often in a large girl circle or going out in a mixed group where they all seem to know each other).

I have a pretty good social circle, but it's not the kind which would help me in dating in US. My south Asian friends don't seem to be interested in dating locally (or maybe they secretly desire), and they often don't have much clue about US politics, sports, culture etc. My American friends are either married, in relationship, in general beyond the point where they'd go out to approach, and in some cases struggling more than me. Did some cold approach with a local lair last night at a club -- quite noisy, and doesn't seem like an effective way of meeting someone. Plus, I don't drink, so bars/clubs are not my natural settings. Though I'd love to be able to dance in the clubs with girls. I tried to seek help from a "friend" who is exceptionally good with girls, but he is notoriously flaky -- so that didn't go anywhere.

[Jack Sparrow]

Hey, it takes a lot of courage to write a candid post like that.

Anyways, let's stay focused at the problem at hand - getting laid through online dating.

I've met pretty cute girls and average girls online. The cute girls online have MANY options, so if they don't text you, chances are they are checking the other 50 messages that they are getting each day.

Since your goal is to get laid, just stick with the average girls. After a good date, I suggest you call the girl next day. I find online girls pick up their phone a lot more than cold approach girls. Meeting guys is a priority of these girls, otherwise they would not be on the dating site. Leave a simple VM if they don't pick up. If they do pick up just tell them you had the good time, find some excuse to get off the phone. You don't want to talk too long, but you do want to give her an idea that you want to see her again.

I am gonna leave this up to you..

You can either arrange for the second date at the end of the first date, OR arrange over text or phone. Again, online girls tend to pick up the phone more, so I would give calling a try and only text if they don't like talking on the phone.

Since you are not experienced, you probably want to wait for the 3rd date before bring the girl back to you place. In the mean time, use plenty of casual touching (touch the back when you guide her across the street, playful hugs, hand on the thigh if you are in a deep conversation).

A VERY general rule - if a girl lets you rest your hand on her upper thigh for a while without moving away, you have a good change of getting laid.

Hope this helps!

[kaizen]

Thanks Jack Sparrow. I'd like to clarify one thing though: I didn't mean that cold approach was ineffective, but cold approaching in loud night clubs. I'm realizing that online dating alone won't cut it, especially if I'm looking for the kind of nice girls that I see on the streets.

Although I did ask some specific questions in my original post, I could benefit more from whatever general advice that you guys may have for someone like me (30 yr, inexperienced, doesn't drink, lacks effective social group for going out). So, let me know if you have some suggestions for me. Thanks!

[Jack Sparrow]

Kaizen, you are on the right track. If you are still a virgin, getting laid is your primary goal. If you are already getting dates online, it's just matter of time before you get laid.

I knew a 26 y/o guys BEFORE and AFTER he lost his virginity. He was a good looking, tall, guy with good energy and personality. But before he lost his virginity he just had this nervous energy around girls. After he lost his virginity, he seemed a lot more relaxed.

So, my only advice right now is keep doing what you are doing. Get the girl back to your place in a stepwise fashion. Average girls who don't have sex on their mind, does take 7 hours to get comfortable with you (Mystery is right about that). Eventually you need to get them to your place. Get her comfortable in you living room. Keep the conversation going. Use routines if you need them (the cube, four questions). The point is not the routine, but just to slow down the tempo of the conversation so the atmosphere feels more sexual. Then, use an excuse to take her to your bedroom (show her some pictures, whatever.)

The bottom line - loose your virginity!

Afterwards you can work on cold approach, self improvement, life style, etc. It sounds right now you are already attractive enough for certain girls. Just need to get that physical thing out of the way, and you'll start to feel the flow of things.

[Halo Effect]

Kaizen,

I would say a blind date is completely different from getting a date online. A blind date means meeting each other when you don't know each other at all, while online dating means you have seen each other's pictures and have had online conversations (and possibly texts and phone calls).

I've had only three dates from online dating so far, but all three of them I kissed the girl and on two of them we went further than making out on the first date. I'm texting/Facebook chatting with a few more girls I met on an online dating site and I've already talked extensively about sex with most of them. The conclusion is that women like sex and it is absolutely possible to get sexual (at least make out, sex happens fairly often) on a first date. That is not necessary at all though, if it's not your style, but getting sex in the first three dates is absolutely possible.

That you have had 3-4 dates a few times with the same girl is a very good sign. You are interesting and attractive to these girls. But EVERY woman will give up sooner or later if you don't make a move. Women want sex, so if you don't give it to them they will find someone else.

Don't obsess about sex right away. Baby steps. Kissing is a fine goal to start with. But it is very important for you to know that you can be far, far, far more sexual and sexually aggressive than you are being now. In fact, you can be far more sexual than you believe is even possible. For now it will be very scary to push your boundaries and step out of your comfort zone, but trust me, when you do, you are moving in the right direction.

Quote:I'm in a dilemma as to whether I should try to text/talk to her after a nice blind first date to keep her in the loop and show my continued interest, or just contact her only before setting up the second date.

You are free to contact her as soon as you want, about whatever you want. If you had a nice date, then you probably had some fun conversations. You can make any sort of joke that refers back to what you talked about in a text. That's not necessarily a strategy or anything. If you had a connection with her, it's just fun to keep the texting going (for both of you), and have more fun through texting. Don't go overboard with texting, but it's okay to text for reasons other than setting up a date. Maybe other people text strictly about setting up another date, but that's not my personal style.

But if you just want to set up another date, then don't wait a week, because then it seems like you're not into her to the girl and she'll move on. Or she'll just forget about you. Let's say you have a date on Friday, then text her some inside joke on Saturday and suggest another date on Sunday for later that next week or something. I just pulled that out of my ass. It doesn't really matter. But don't wait a whole week.

Quote:My first dates have been great lately, but not sure whether I should try to kiss the girl because it's a blind date. I often hug them after walking them up to their car. Wonder if that has any adverse effect?

Here's something for you to try: in stead of hug them goodbye, kiss them goodbye. Get close to her face with your face. If she responds positively at all you can probably make out.

Ultimately the goal is to be sexually confident so you can be sexual in any context, but for now a kiss goodbye at the end of the date would be a great improvement! Let me know what you think of that.

Quote:Average girls who don't have sex on their mind, does take 7 hours to get comfortable with you (Mystery is right about that).

No.

[youregettingitwrong]

Addressing your issue on whether or not/ how often to contact a girl post date, I would say it is detrimental to wait a week or longer and only to do so to set up another date. You are going out with girls from an online dating scene where everyone has a huge database of potential dates and this presents a few issues where texting and maintaining contact after a successful date is key.

First is that the girl you went out with could very likely be going out with another guy the very next night after she goes out with you, and another the next night. You have to keep yourself present in her mind, plus, these other men might be texting her daily and building more of a connection whereas you are not.

Also, from the other hand, these girls know that you as well have a multitude of women who are readily available to date. You have to provide a girl you are interested in with some security that you have not just moved onto the next girl. That takes reaching out and making contact and letting her know you enjoyed yourself.

These girls might not be texting you because you are not texting them, many girls let the guy set the pattern on how often to communicate, so set one that you would like her to keep as well.

I once dated this guy briefly who after each date, would CALL me while I was driving home and would tell me he enjoyed himself and would ask me if I wanted to get together again. I have never felt so comfortable and secure with a guy. Albeit, it didn't last because there were some big time cultural differences, but just as an example, if I could get every guy I date to this same thing it would make things a hell of a lot easier.

My recommendation is to say hi when you feel like it. Simple as that. Thinking about a girl and you feel like seeing what she is up to? Do it. You don't have to hold long, drawn out conversations. You can say hi, ask her about her day and then let her know you have some work to do but that you will catch up more later. Easy Peasy. Just enough to put yourself in front of her.

As far as the other stuff, I'll let the guys guide you on that.

[Jack Sparrow]

I don't want to get into a debate, but I do want to defend Mystery and the 7 hours rule a little bit. There's way too much Mystery bashing these day. Mystery was a guy who actually gets laid unlike the subsequent "gurus". Anyways, that's not the point.

The point is - there are many verbal and nonverbal cues that screens the girl in or out for sex from the second you meet the girl. If you don't screen for sexually minded girls, then you end up with the relationship minded girl (at least girls who think they are relationship minded). I HIGHLY doubt the OP come across sexual either in his online profile or on his first meet with the girl. Like he said - a well dressed professional who is a VIRGIN. Someone who has no sexual experience with girls, who has already filtered in a bunch or relationship minded girl is better off buying his time, getting physically comfortable with the girl. All girls want sex eventually, but I am almost certain the type of girls that kaizen meet online will hold out on HIM for for a few dates.

I lost my virginity by being near a bed, alone, with a girl who is comfortable with me. That's probably how most guys lose their virginity.

Just to keep it simple - get yourself alone with the girl at some point, maintain whatever physical touch, sex will happen.

I was a clueless virgin when this girl kept tickling me until I grabbed her and that's that...

[SeXyBaCk]

Yeah, after the 2nd or 3rd date call her, say you're pretty knackered from work but what to see her... if she doesn't want to come over for a glass of wine or a movie or something. You can show her your stamp collection (don't actually say that unless you're very confident she's wanting it).

RE 7 hours... who knows how many hours it takes, depends on the woman right? Point being it's rather hours you spend together not minutes or days. 2-3 dates amounts to about 7 hours spend together, so seems reasonable. Sometimes it just takes 2 hours sometimes 10. You aren't clocking it, so keeping those rules in the back of your head aren't really helping you I don't think.

What you need to grasp is, unless there's significant amount of alcohol involved most women won't initiate physical relations in a new relationship. So if girl and guy just sit there nervously twirling their thumbs it becomes a source of frustration. So you have to make some kind of move eventually, if it's too early for her she'll let you know. What won't happen is like "oh no, what you want something sexual with me no - no way!". After all you're on a date. It's clear where it's going.

[kaizen]

(04-29-2012 07:23 PM)Halo Effect Wrote:  I've had only three dates from online dating so far, but all three of them I kissed the girl and on two of them we went further than making out on the first date.

(05-01-2012 12:09 PM)SeXyBaCk Wrote:  What won't happen is like "oh no, what you want something sexual with me no - no way!".

The above pretty much tells me all I need to know about making a move, and that I'm operating well inside the boundaries of what is not only possible, but what the girls expect me to do.

One of the reasons, besides my limiting belief as illustrated above, that I don't escalate and invite them to my place is because I live with a roommate. Even though I jokingly set up a texting code word with my roommate (another south Asian, and we both had very conservative upbringing) for when I'm headed home with a girl, I'm not comfortable bringing one home. Plus, he is always home. How would you guys handle this situation? How would a girl feel about coming to my place if she knows that I've a roommate, even though he maybe confined to his room. Looking back, I can see that most of my attempts at getting together have been to suggest some activity at the girl's place (and often they've roommate(s) too). I will have my own place in a few months.

I have also noticed that my interest in a girl declines if I feel that I can "attain" her. In other words, subconsciously I'm probably more interested in being able to get a girl than I actually getting her. There's no doubt that I have some internal conflicts resulting from my upbringing, values, and the fact that I find the girls here attractive and want to have fun with them. But it's in my nature to think long-term even though I fantasize about banging a lot of girls. The moment I have a good first date with someone I like very much, I just think of her and worry about making it a success. So, I may be another "one, and done" in Mark's words.

My confidence with girls fluctuates a lot, and goes through cyclical phases. When I'm doing my job well and I'm in general happy with my life, I can talk and joke with a girl more confidently especially since I often feel like I'm dressed more sharply than her and feel confident (I probably overcompensated in the dressing department by getting high-quality shoes and clothes, while postponing the cold approach). I mean, I have picked up a girl in a 25-minute flight. I also successfully got a number the very first time I decide to date in the US about two years ago. We were at a college concert, and I liked a girl who was in another group of girls. My friend told me to go talk to her and ask for her number. I did that. And back then, I wasn't even reading all these dating books and blogs

At other times, I fee like a pathetic loser who can't get a girl interested in him for a sustained period. But as I said above, when I feel like it's within my reach, my interest in the girl decreases and I find myself more on the side of affirming the values that I was brought up with and want to avoid any subsequent guilt by moving forward. This internal conflict is probably holding me back more than anything else. I'd like to hear from you guys on this whole issue, whether you've been through these and what you did.

[SeXyBaCk]

People have roomates, it happens, just mention that you have a roomate that might be home. I would actually introduce them if he doesn't happen to be asleep. Even if he's a queer fellow, who cares. There's nothing awkward about having flatmates (up to a certain age I suppose). For instance I have a boxer dog who's very friendly...to a point where she just rapes anyone who steps into my house. I've got precautions set up (like a toddler gate) to lock her in the kitchen, but there's no way anyone can ignore a big great panting bouncing 70 pound muscle animal when walking up to the living quarters. You just gotta be cool about it. You're human after all, you can't plan for everything. Far more important is your place halfway tidy, are your sheets clean and your washroom presentable.

Quote:I have also noticed that my interest in a girl declines if I feel that I can "attain" her. In other words, subconsciously ...

I think this is more your anxiety speaking first and foremost. You need experience right now. I appreciate you don't want to become some player with a reputation but you need some baseline experience with women. It'll make you more attractive. Trust me, nothing scares women as much as a guy with no experience with women. It's a non-starter and a big red flag. So have a few casual relationships, even if you're certain they're not going to end in wedlock. And you're on a clock, you're 30, now is when you need to get the experience (adding pressure here, but it's true).

Trust me there's some shit you can't pull with the women, they are different creatures. There are just some mistakes every man is going to make, so you better make them before you meet someone great and then blow your chances with her. Because that is when you'll be kicking yourself.

I can relate to the extent that sometimes I'm really not interested in female attention, or get female attention that I don't particularly want at that time. I just put it down to biorhythmn, tell them I just need some me time at the moment, and a few days later I'm my old self.

[Jon]

Roommate is not an issue. Girls won't care. I wouldn't have him completely confined to his room, actually. Better if he pokes his head out when you guys get in, says hi, and then goes back to his room. She sees he's normal, that's out of the way, she can relax more.

[baller08]

Your interest does not decline. That's your fear of being rejected sexually or not performing well so you convinced yourself you don't want to try. Call it defensive mechanism or sour grapes, whatever you call it it's simply fear in disguise.

[Halo Effect]

Yes. Back when I had very strong sexual anxiety, I would stop liking a girl as soon as it became clear that she really liked me. I would start avoiding her and feeling anxious just thinking about her...

[kaizen]

(05-02-2012 02:21 PM)baller08 Wrote:  That's your fear of being rejected sexually or not performing well ...

I am really surprised by the unanimity of your opinions on my "oh I lose interest in a girl once I take her off pedestal" that it's basically fear. I was expecting more like "you don't know what you want, everything flows from self-realization, get in touch with your emotions first" kind of answer. But I accept your verdict as you guys are much more experienced in this than I am.

I am posting here once more, but reluctantly. I don't want to be that guy who keeps coming to the forum, without making any changes in real life. But I'm back here because: (1) there are somethings that I wanted to share later on, but looks like this is the moment to do that. After this, I would have shared all I wanted to at this time.
(2) I really feel overwhelmed by all the information, and can't clearly see what my next concrete steps should be (more on this below).

About (1): I do have fears about performing well sexually. But I had adopted this attitude that it's not really the main reason why I don't make a move. My thinking was: "what if I lose face in front of a girl, maybe I won't see her again, so how does it matter. I will try another girl." But I guess these things work at a much deeper level.

Important thing to keep in mind is that I'm not seeking medical advice from you guys (which I've already done, more below). I just wanna hear whether you think it's a purely psychological problem.

I had two intimate encounters with girls. I found myself a bit exhausted after a minute or two of heavy make out. I would take a break, breathe, and restart. I was really surprised by my lack of "stamina" (if that's the word). I consider myself very fit otherwise, I have a healthy weight, go to gym 3x/week, have run 10K's, most recent in April, and the biggest sickness I have had in well over a decade is flu and fever; that's it.

What happens is that even when I am mildly excited, I start to secrete very small amounts of what I believe is the transparent pre-cum fluid. The situations in which this occurs is ridiculously trivial and I feel ashamed even to share this, like: watching a football game next to a girl, texting/chatting/talking with a girl if we've some nice conversation going, while on dates, dancing with a girl, or sometimes even the excitement of being on a dance floor, being in a bar/club with hot girls around me, sometimes even while reading dating/PUA books and websites. Occasionally it happens even in non-sexual context if I get very excited. In general, these secretions are not continuously flowing, but it's not uncommon for me to find a few spots on my undergarment dotted with the fluid.

So, as you can imagine, if I'm in a foreplay (which is a much more heightened level of excitement), I have fluid continuously coming out of me and that leaves me limp. That's part of the reason why I'm a virgin. I once had this opportunity for a one-night stand (my first intimate encounter), but I was drained, exhausted and limp at the end of the foreplay and couldn't do it, even after the girl tried to orally stimulate me! (full disclosure: I wasn't even remotely attracted to this girl, physically or otherwise, and we had only texted before this encounter.)

Now, as I said above, I seem healthy outwardly. I went to see a doctor after this. He thought it may be due to enlarged prostate, especially given that I go to restroom more often than an average young guy (but not like those old folks in the commercials ). He gave me flomax to try. But the physical exam and a bunch of lab tests that he ran of me, they all came out to be normal. Anyway, I was supposed to be taking meds for a few months and see if it improved the situation. But in between that, I traveled a lot and couldn't take the meds very regularly. After my trips, I talked to the doctor again and asked whether I should start this whole medicine program again from scratch. But when he looked up his notes, his recollection of my initial problem was very different from what I had told him (which was secretion during mild excitements and limpness after foreplay). I was really disappointed in him. He suggested I try cialis/viagra and gave me free samples. Now there are two problems here: I don't wanna inject any unnecessary chemicals in my body if it's not actually warranted. Secondly, for me to use cialis/viagra, I need to know that I'm having sex tonight or tomorrow, which is not the case with me. It just doesn't seem like a right way to start my sex life. But he had told me during the first visit that it may/will (don't remember) improve once you gain more experience.

Not surprisingly, I have watched porn and masturbated for quite some time. I saw that thread about stopping porn on this forum, but didn't pay much mention. But then suddenly a month ago, I got convinced to my core that my situation is already fucked up, and porn is gonna totally ruin it. I just stopped it, without making pledges, without posting of the forum, or setting up a goal of x number of days I won't watch porn. I just dropped it completely, suddenly, without needing any will power, and don't even crave it. It's been just over a month w/o porn. I'm utterly surprised by my action. I have continued to masturbate, though.

I want to ask you guys whether you think it's purely psychological (since I seem healthy and my tests came out neutral). I remember Mark mentioning that he couldn't perform the first few times and was frustrated. If this happened with Mark or you guys, was it also associated with this weird secretion problem that I have -- or was it just that you couldn't get it up.

About (2): At this moment, I'm utterly confused as to what I should do to improve my love life. Why? Do I not have information/knowledge in this area? No, it's exactly opposite. I have way too much knowledge and material on this matter, and it has become overwhelming and clouded by thought process. I only read the PM blog, and recently started reading this forum. But, recently I also browsed Baller's and GoodLookngLoser's blogs. I read Mark's book six months ago, and heavily underlined it. I have Glover's "No More Mr. Nice Guy" whose first half I casually browsed. I have some of Mark's posts bookmarked, like: 80/20 principle, Improving quickly, etc.

I'm overloaded and overwhelmed with information right now. Here's where I need your empathy and guidance. Tell me what my next concrete, baby steps should be to climb out of this abyss.

Thanks,
Kaizen

[Halo Effect]

Quote:What happens is that even when I am mildly excited, I start to secrete very small amounts of what I believe is the transparent pre-cum fluid. The situations in which this occurs is ridiculously trivial and I feel ashamed even to share this, like: watching a football game next to a girl, texting/chatting/talking with a girl if we've some nice conversation going, while on dates, dancing with a girl, or sometimes even the excitement of being on a dance floor, being in a bar/club with hot girls around me, sometimes even while reading dating/PUA books and websites. Occasionally it happens even in non-sexual context if I get very excited. In general, these secretions are not continuously flowing, but it's not uncommon for me to find a few spots on my undergarment dotted with the fluid.

It's great that you shared this.

Do you mean that it is truly flowing, or just that little bits come out and you find dots of fluid in your boxers?

I have the latter all the time. If I have been in situations with girls or if I've been fantasizing, I find my boxers dotted with fluid, as well. I have never really discussed this at length with other men, but I think this is simply what happens if you are excited for prolonged periods of time without getting a release. That shit builds up and every now and then you let go of some "precum" or whatever.

About getting excited in trivial situations... After I had learned about PUA, but before I ever got any results, I would get erections from simple indicators of interest. So: me talking to girl, girl flips her hair, erection! How's that for you? I still have that to some extent. A good make out definitely does the trick. Since you are still a virgin, it makes a lot of sense that you easily get aroused when you're around a girl. Congratulations, you're a healthy male!

You are ashamed to admit this to us, so you would probably be even more ashamed if a girl you are with found this out. That explains the sexual anxiety. You can stop this right now, there's no reason to! Last time I remember that I was in bed with a girl and she noticed some fluid coming out during foreplay, she happily licked it off. Not all girls are going to be that awesome, but girls won't mind whatsoever.

You say you are "exhausted" after a while of losing that fluid. Are you sure? It sounds like you were once with a girl who you weren't even attracted to and you couldn't get it up. Not getting it up is very common for inexperienced men who are a little anxious. The two issues are probably not related at all.

You ask for next steps. I'd say: First of all, relax. You're a healthy male. Maybe your dick gets a little over-excited occasionally. That's his way of saying: it's about time we got some action, bro! Second, keep dating girls like you are doing now. Each and every date you have (doesn't matter how many dates you've had with her), try to escalate a little bit further. That's all you need to do. You will know you're doing well if you are, in fact, escalating further as you date more. You can post your experiences here.

[SeXyBaCk]

Kaizen,

First of all, I can't help but notice you come across as a very reserved/private individual. Basically, before composing your post you have already decided for yourself this was/is all you're going to reveal before taking a step back and retreating back into the comfort of seclusion. I think you full well know yourself you've been doing just that for a while now and it's not working for you.

Reading books and sucking in information might be supportive and enlightening but at the end of the day only you can make yourself happier by taking action. At this point I'd stop the dating advice consumption for now. You're getting dates, women are perceiving you as a man. It's time to work with what you have.

In regard to the main issue... I actually believe you're addressing two issues and only one is a actual problem. First the discharge you're getting when you're turned on is completely normal. Everyone has it, some more than others, it's a salt based liquid that is intended for lubrication/cleansing of ureter before sex, it's produced by the Cowper'glands which aren't anywhere near your testicles, but in your pelvis adjacent/underneath to your prostate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulbourethral_gland). Women have similar glands that make them wet and we all consider that to be great. Because I'm a doctor myself I want to ask you if you feel you're losing urine, because this would indicate an anatomical problem but I feel I'll just leave that up to you to discuss with your own doctor. From my point of view the secretion is no reason for concern.

Given that you run a lot and seem in perfect health otherwise (and I'm sure your doctor has not forgone a regular cardiopulmonary survey) the exhaustion you're experiencing during kissing and before sex is probably down to nerves. You're probably kissing and forgetting to breathe, as simple and silly as may sound. Think about it: kissing is no bigger strain that slowly walking up a flight of steps, if you can do one, you can do the other. You are definitely not exhausted/limp because you are losing fluid.

Which brings me to the erectile dysfunction. Now there are anatomical/physical reason for why this might be happening to you. Your doctor was only addressing the strictly physical side of it, giving you a drug that is intended to treat enlarged prostates (which I can't tell if you really diagnosed you with or was just giving you something in order to make you go home content). The samples of cialis or viagra he gave you were intended much in the same vain, throwing the usual medication at the problem rather than finding out the issue. You do need to keep an eye on your enlarged prostate and your urinating frequency, and have it checked ever so often, specially if your family has a history of prostate cancer. BUT it seems pretty clear to me the 'not being able to get it up' that you were experiencing was also down to nerves.

This can and mostly likely has happened to all of us, it commonly happens when lots of alcohol is involved, you want to have sex, you're horny... you undress and what the hell? Nothing is happening. The opposite of this is premature ejaculation. Also that happens to pretty much everyone.

I'm going to assume when you masturbate the hydraulics work as they should right? So here's what you need to do, find a lady you get on well with, go slow, get comfortable, don't pressure yourself, figure out ways to relax (this forum can help you with ressources).

[kaizen]

Quote: Do you mean that it is truly flowing, or just that little bits come out and you find dots of fluid in your boxers?

It's not flowing; just multiple dots of fluid in my boxers.

Quote: You say you are "exhausted" after a while of losing that fluid. Are you sure?

What I meant was that I need to pause for a while after making out for 1-2 minutes, and then start again. More like when you take several flights of stairs in one go, you feel like pausing and breathing before continuing.

Quote:Because I'm a doctor myself I want to ask you if you feel you're losing urine ...

No, I am not.

Quote:the exhaustion you're experiencing during kissing and before sex is probably down to nerves. You're probably kissing and forgetting to breathe, as simple and silly as may sound. Think about it: kissing is no bigger strain that slowly walking up a flight of steps, if you can do one, you can do the other. You are definitely not exhausted/limp because you are losing fluid.

I'll go slow next time and keep my breathing even.

Quote:I'm going to assume when you masturbate the hydraulics work as they should right?

Yep.

Oh well, I guess I will stop worrying about the physical fitness part of it. Looks like it's pretty normal and mainly because of nerve and inexperience. Thanks so much guys, I never thought before posting on the forum that I'd feel so supported.

Quote: Basically, before composing your post you have already decided for yourself this was/is all you're going to reveal before taking a step back and retreating back into the comfort of seclusion. I think you full well know yourself you've been doing just that for a while now and it's not working for you.

What I actually meant was that I don't have much else to share at this time. This is all I have right now.

I got all my dates online (OkCupid, POF). But overall it's been quite inefficient (not to mention deceptive, at times). When I go online now, I see the same 40-50 girls online that I've been seeing for past couple of months. I've already messaged many of them. I rarely get response to the messages, but if I can get someone on IM -- I'm usually good at pulling out the number. But only 2-3 girls are on IM at any given time. So, I decided to deactivate my online account yesterday, hoping that it'd push me more to go out in real life. Also, when it comes to talking with a girl I'm much more of an in-person guy; now too much into text/phone. But I do have approach anxiety.

I somehow have given the wrong impression on this forum that I am getting dates regularly. When I asked for "next steps", I was looking for some basic steps to start with (since I'm overloaded with information) so that I can start going on dates more consistently. Trust me, I psyched to try progressive escalation the next time I'm on a date. If I have dates lined up, I will be even more confident in trying escalation. Right now, I don't have a date, nor do I have a new number to set one.

So, where do I start?

Again, thanks so much guys!

[Halo Effect]

Quote:I somehow have given the wrong impression on this forum that I am getting dates regularly. When I asked for "next steps", I was looking for some basic steps to start with (since I'm overloaded with information) so that I can start going on dates more consistently. Trust me, I psyched to try progressive escalation the next time I'm on a date. If I have dates lined up, I will be even more confident in trying escalation. Right now, I don't have a date, nor do I have a new number to set one.

So, where do I start?

Have you considered Mark's approach program? It will help you to start approaching women. I think you have good social skills already so once you are approaching you will probably get dates. http://postmasculine.com/approach

[baller08]

I agree with Halo. Get the Approach Program and start doing.

What you're asking us here isn't really "where to start". What you're really asking us is, "Tell me what is the best way so that I don't get rejected and still get dates".

You have enough material that you could start anywhere. If you've read all the things you said you've read, you know what is the core thing we all say: Go talk to women.

If you want to start tonight, I'll give you an exercise. Go pick 10 women somewhere, doesn't matter where, doesn't matter what they look like and say, "Hi there...let me get your opinion on something....would you rather have hands that look like a man's or legs that look like an 85 year old woman's?"

That's it...whatever she says, ask her why...be actually interested in what she is saying....and then tell her thanks and have a great day. If she asks why, just say, "Just an interesting question I read today...thought it was funny".

That's it. It doesn't matter what happens, all it matters is you do it. Ask 10 women today and let us know tomorrow your results. Don't make excuses. 10 women. You asked where to start with baby steps...I'm telling you.

[kaizen]

Question: "Would you rather have hands that look like a man's or legs that look like an 85 year old woman's? Why?"

Responses:
1) 2 girls: Hmm..we're kinda in a hurry. Sorry!
2) Hands. Can hide my hands more easily than legs.
3) Hands. Men are are more likely to look at legs than hands.
4) Hands. Hands don't matter much. I'd like to get feminine hands though, and I can get my nails done.
5) Hands. You can't hide legs.
6) 3 sorority girls. I don't know.
7) 2 girls+1 guy. Passed me by without any response.
8) Legs. Can cover with jeans.
9) Old lady. I'd rather look like a human being.
10) Hands. I don't know.
11) Hands. I don't know.
12) 2 girls. We're kinda in a hurry.
13) Hands. I don't wanna have wrinkly legs, can hide my hands.
14) Hands. I don't look at people's legs, don't want wrinkly hands (she had earplugs in, but I approached).
15) 2 super cute, petite twins (felt like going forward and getting numbers or something ). Legs. We can wear pants and hide. When you shake hands, people look at your hand.
16) 2 hot girls. First: I already have man hands. Second: Hands. Hands are more important and you can't cover your legs. (I initially passed these two as I was nearing my apartment, but went back and asked them.)

Time taken: 30 mins.
Showered, dressed up, and went around my apartment block. It's an area where undergrads live and it is "the" party area of the university.

[Swimmer]

(05-04-2012 12:22 AM)kaizen Wrote:  Question: "Would you rather have hands that look like a man's or legs that look like an 85 year old woman's? Why?"

Responses:
1) 2 girls: Hmm..we're kinda in a hurry. Sorry!
2) Hands. Can hide my hands more easily than legs.
3) Hands. Men are are more likely to look at legs than hands.
4) Hands. Hands don't matter much. I'd like to get feminine hands though, and I can get my nails done.
5) Hands. You can't hide legs.
6) 3 sorority girls. I don't know.
7) 2 girls+1 guy. Passed me by without any response.
8) Legs. Can cover with jeans.
9) Old lady. I'd rather look like a human being.
10) Hands. I don't know.
11) Hands. I don't know.
12) 2 girls. We're kinda in a hurry.
13) Hands. I don't wanna have wrinkly legs, can hide my hands.
14) Hands. I don't look at people's legs, don't want wrinkly hands (she had earplugs in, but I approached).
15) 2 super cute, petite twins (felt like going forward and getting numbers or something ). Legs. We can wear pants and hide. When you shake hands, people look at your hand.
16) 2 hot girls. First: I already have man hands. Second: Hands. Hands are more important and you can't cover your legs. (I initially passed these two as I was nearing my apartment, but went back and asked them.)

Time taken: 30 mins.
Showered, dressed up, and went around my apartment block. It's an area where undergrads live and it is "the" party area of the university.

Man, you've got balls!

Just the thought of trying this got me nervous.
Good job, keep it going.

[baller08]

For every guy here who makes excuses when they are out 3 or 4 hours and only approach 2 women and say you're tired, hungry, in a bad mood, etc.....I want you to take a good look at what is easily possible. 30 minutes. 16 approaches. No excuses. It doesn't matter which program you buy...Mark's or otherwise...if you don't have the basic courage to do what Kaizen did, then it won't matter

---

Kaizen - excellent. The purpose of this exercise was 2 folds, one was for me to see where you are in your progress and two was to show you that you don't need to get dates online.

My assessement is that online dating is not helping you at all. You get these girls who you aren't that interested in, it takes a lot of time, and you're not getting anywhere. So first thing is drop the online dating. You don't need it.

If you start getting dates from women you actually interact with in person, you'll feel much better about yourself and you'll have a lot more fun during dates. This itself will help move you towards alleviating some of your sexual anxiety.

In the end your sexual anxiety will only be overcome once you push your own sexual boundaries...but you need to be on dates to do this....and you need to talk to women to get dates.

So your next exercise is this.....

Copy and paste your results you just wrote to me on a Word document. Really read over it. If you approached 50 more women, more or less you're going to get most of the same answers you got.

I could spoon feed you how to take those answers you got and lead into a whole interesting and fun conversation with these women, but I'm not going to do that. You've read enough material that I want YOU to come up with how you want to take the conversation.

I'll just give you some general guidelines but I want the direction to come from you so it's natural and authentic:

1) If possible, tease her about the answer she gave you.

2) If she's particularly hard on herself, give her a subtle compliment on another part of her body, preferrably something sensual like eyes, lips, or hair...but make it genuinely something you like and don't be ashamed of it.

3) Treat the conversation like you would a 1st date.

4) Mix in a cold read and whatever the answer she gives you, go off that and at this point you can have the more "usual" topics such as where is she headed to, what is she buying, what is she studying, etc.

Some women will not give you too many openings for conversations, if they don't then stick with the conversation topics you wrote in your exercise. If they do however start talking about other topics, then drop your topics and bounce off of what she brings up.

So what I want you to do is take those answers and craft up what you would like to say the next time a woman gives you one of those answers. Then go out this weekend and approach 20 more women and try out what you wrote for yourself.

*Some women will not give you too many openings for conversations, if they don't then stick with the conversational topics you're about to write down in your exercise. If they do however start talking about other topics, then drop your topics and bounce off of what she brings up.

Look Kaizen - you're a lot better than you give yourself credit for. You don't need online dating. Go out and talk to women and don't be afraid to ask for their number. Once you get on some dates with women you're geninuely attracted to then we'll work on helping you push past your sexual anxieties.

Great work though.

---

(05-04-2012 10:26 AM)Swimmer Wrote:  Man, you've got balls!

Just the thought of trying this got me nervous.
Good job, keep it going.

Then don't think, Swimmer. Close your laptop right this second, go brush your teeth, and go to any public place and approach 10 women, regardless of what they look like.

[Halo Effect]

kaizen, go ahead and do baller's exercise.

But while you're at it (I'm amazed by your ability to approach! Awesome dude!) do 10 approaches in the next few days, where you walk up to a girl you are genuinely attracted to and say: "Hey. (With a friendly, real smile.) This is kind of random, but I think you're really cute. I had to come up and say hi." Then introduce yourself. Then small talk and teasing and so on is fine. Just act normal. If she doesn't reject you, ask for a number after a while. Just say: "I have to go now, but we should meet up some time. What's your number."

For science.

[baller08]

I agree with Halo Effect. Don't be afraid to try different approaches to see what works for you. Also, what may work for you today may be unnecessary in 2 years. The important thing is to push your own boundaries and get experiences with women.

Now all that being said, in itself, whether you try my approach or Halo's approach matters very little. These are just exercises and a vehicle in which to engage people you don't know. What matters is the background work you do with your fitness, your financial goals, your hobbies, your mindset of yourself as a man.

It is those background activities that fuels these "approaches". That is why we always say over and over again, it's not what you say but how you say it.

[kaizen]

Friends,

Since I did approaches over two weeks ago (posted above), unfortunately, I have stalled. Completely. I was so hoping to come back here only after doing lots of approaches and some good news.

Looking back, even I can't believe how many approaches I did that day. When Baller gave me very specific instructions, I jumped from by bed even though I was feeling a little down, and was out there in half an hour and asking that ridiculous question without any hesitation. Since then, I procrastinated a few days. Then I was overwhelmed with work for quite some time and that became a perfect excuse.

But more importantly, even when I go out with the intention of approaching girls, l'm not quite sure what to ask -- I juggle between what Baller's second exercise was, what Halo Effect suggested, and another idea of mine. Always unsure which one to do, and by that time the girl passes by. Unlike the first exercise where I knew exactly what to ask (and it was made easier by the fact that I was not really asking for their number), this time around I go out without clarity in my head and stall every time.

I really wanna improve in this area, so why can't I push through my boundaries consistently? I really don't know what to ask from you guys this time; but any words of encouragement and tips to break free of this situation would be helpful.

Two small highlights from this period though:
--------------------------------------------
1) The only approach I did was at a wedding few days ago. I saw this gorgeous girl providing some professional service at the wedding ceremony. I realized that I had seen her at a lecture two months ago and was stunned by her beauty that day. I told my friends that I have seen her before. They asked me to go talk to her. One of the guys kept asking me to approach her and that built up pressure on me and I couldn't approach her. At one point she opened our group for conversation; one friend kept the conversation going for me to engage her, but I could hardly join the flow of the conversation because of the perceived pressure from my friends. Anyways, towards the end of the ceremony, when she packed her equipment and was leaving with her colleagues, I decided to give it a shot by going out and seeing if I can catch her away from the wedding guests and my eager friends. I found her sitting in the hotel lobby, and immediately walked towards her. She quickly glanced up, our eyes met, and then she was again looking down. I kept walking and finally had a nice conversation (I don't know suddenly how I gain lot of confidence, which never sustains in the long run). Got her number, texted her next day, and tried to find out quickly if she was seeing one of her colleagues (which I suspected, and it turned out to be true). I ended the conversation with saying that maybe we'll run into each other again, and that was it. She texted me two days days later, invited me to a lecture she was attending (with her bf; she released this info after I said yes), I went, but didn't meet her because I left early to have dinner with my friends, and partly because I realized that I was wasting my time in that boring lecture , and she's already with a guy. She texted me immediately after the lecture saying that since I didn't come to the lecture (she didn't know that I left early without meeting her), she can send me the link to the recorded video. Asked for my email twice, and FB, which I finally gave to her. Then she invited me to a festival few days later. I actually wanted to attend this fest, so I went, we met and roamed around and talked (she came alone this time), but we parted soon because both of us had to be somewhere else. Looks like she wants to be friends, which I dont mind at all, but I have enough friends already. So, I am not going to be contacting her on my own. Just wanted to share with you guys what happened to the only approach I did in the intervening period.

2) I went on a date tonight through online dating. I had deactivated my free online dating profile the night I had done lots of approaches on Baller's suggestion. But few days ago, I came across this new paid dating site, which 50% off on subscription (six months for less than $6/month). I gave in and signed up.

I went to a country dance lesson class with the girl. But turns out that info on the website was not updated and there was no dance lesson tonight. It was a really nice place, but full with old folks dancing western on their own. She is good at swing and I have tried my hands at a few dances without actually learning any of them properly. The music kept changing, folks doing different dances each time, and we felt like we won't be able to hit the floor. She suggested we grab drinks and people watch, and may be we'll dance after observing other folks.

We sat on a nice two-seater couch with our drinks and started talking. Before sitting down, I touched her (on her back, on shoulder, and throwing my arms around her shoulder) when right moments presented themselves. After sitting down comfortably, though we were close to each other, there wasn't much excuse to touch her. I touched her knees with my hands a few times when we were laughing at something. But every time our knees touched each other's, mostly inadvertently, she would pull back a little. We had a nice flowing conversation -- but it was mostly about the research work she was doing (some of which I could relate to because of some common background), what she would like to do after finishing her grad school, asking some tips for site seeing in a country which she is visiting to attend a conference (I have been to that country for a conference), and I talked some when she showed interest in my research background. I let her talk mostly, and she grabbed the opportunity We talked nicely for two hours before she was ready to call it a night, but as you can see there wasn't much about more personal stuff and things to build intimacy. I had gone into this date thinking that I would try to kiss my first date this time, but that energy and vibe was just not there. We parted with a hug.

Close to being my age, she seemed pretty mature and chill. I was very relaxed too. She seemed like a very ordinary, simple, decent, and educated girl -- who I'd like to see again. But I don't know how to proceed to build more comfort and come closer. It wasn't a very exciting date on paper, so I'm not sure if we'll see each other again. Just to get some clue about a second date, I texted her one hour after parting:

Me: Hey! It was nice talking to you (not exactly what we planned for, but I think we did well ).
Her: Hey <my name>, it was nice to meet you too!

(I was referring to our plan of taking the country dance lesson, which didn't happen.)

After I came from the date, since I was dressed nicely, I decided to do some street approaches (at 9pm at night). The moment I walked out of the apartment, I saw a cute girl totally checking me out. Even after our eyes met, she held it for a few moments, but I froze. Then this happened 1-2 times more. I kept walking in and around the deserted campus, which is out of session right now. I could only ask for direction from a group of 3 girls. There were not many opportunities because of the summer break, but even if there were, I'd have probably chickened out (so different from me two weeks ago, right?!!). I was feeling so depressed walking the dead campus, thinking that most of my friends are with someone, and those who are single seem really at ease with the situation because they don't expect to date in the US.

I've also been going out with an American friend over the weekends. My performance in night clubs/bars is horrible. I just can't seem to approach 2 or more girls, or mixed groups (of course). I strongly feel like, at this stage, approaching individual girls on the street is the only thing I can do if I could somehow get my confidence to approach back again.

Perhaps it's the nice guy in me, but I feel like I have personally let Baller down. I always admire his insights, and his ability to cut through BS (which I'm sure he'll do with this post as well). He said so many nice things about my initial approach that day, and now here I am.