hello guys i want to ask something...i am 19 years old..i stopped mastarbation/porn for 31 days...the 30st day i mastarbated without porn and i cummed extreme a lot in about 3-5 minutes ....i was dissapointed for 2 reasons...first i wanted the porn recovery cycle to be about 2 weeks more.and second i was worried i cummed that easy...after this event i was thinking wtf..i will not have a erection disfunction problem never again,but now my problem is premature ejucation?so i after 10 days i mastarbated again without porn but it took me about 5-6 minutes to cum...i am worried, i overcome one problem(not had erections with every girl but almost all) and now my problem is i cumm to easy? any advice?greetings from Creta(greece)..and thanks for your time
Arikado Wrote:I'm back on the wagon. Honestly I forgot to keep track of the last day I viewed porn, because I attempted (and failed) two reboot attempts before my current kick. I guesstimate that it's been 3 weeks since I've viewed any sort of porn. I did jerk it once a week after, and then had a girl give me a hand last Sunday. Felt pretty good, but I flatlined a week in sans porn (even though I was masturbating). It's odd. Otherwise I feel pretty groovy. Been busy with school, work, and my novel (and another article for this site coming soon, promise!).
I did have a few vivid sexual dreams, one of which I swear-to-god felt like a wet dream. But, the flatline blows. It's very strange not having any "true" erections (even with the girl, it wasn't as full as it used to be). I feel the usual amount of social anxiety, and in fact, I feel like I just have very low testosterone. I spar MMA twice a week, and I don''t feel as aggressive or focused as usual. Hopefully things get better another few weeks in. Going to a club tonight. We'll see how that goes.
Hey Afrikado
Yes those flatlines can really be a bitch, I can really relate to what you're going true. You're thinking "am I just like this?". I can also relate to the feeling of having very low testosterone. But I have good news for you, there is NO CONNECTION BETWEEN masturbation and testosterone:
http://yourbrainonporn.com/selected-test...e-research
http://yourbrainonporn.com/whats-the-con...one-levels
http://yourbrainonporn.com/has-too-much-...one-levels
http://yourbrainonporn.com/testosterone-...d-dopamine
It always cracks me up when I see a pu-artist given the advice to withold masturbation in order to increase his testosterone. Seriously.....
What a flatline means is basically that you arn't adjusted to normal dopamine sensitivity. That means that you still need some time to reboot. After a while everything will kick back into place.
But whathever you do, never make negative assumptions about your personality during this phase. It's tricky, I know, but it can lead to very stupid beliefs. When in doubt have your T-levels checked. On the reuniting forum, there are plenty of people who have done that. Most of them have average levels and some have pretty high levels. Keep in mind that erectyle disfunction that is related to low testosterone, happens very rarely for guys under 40.
Also testosterone is just one of the 4 sex hormones, there is also dopamine, serotonine and estrogen. So it's always a littlbe bit more complicated then we originally think
freiheitlich Wrote:Hello,
after 2 months with no porn and masturbation i will stop this, because i notice a lot of desperation among women. I notice that harm the game i do. I will reduce it to 1 time per week.
Here the results again.
RESULTS after 2 month without porn and masturbation
- my average sexual desire is a little bit higher
- my penis has more volume
- I sleep less
- I have more energy and motivation
- Desperation State if I approach
Be careful about the Danger of no porn and masturbation, it can lead to Desperation.
If you feel that you have given this enough time, don't be afraid to masturbate once in a while. 1 time per week should be ok, just drop the porn.
chourds Wrote:hello guys i want to ask something...i am 19 years old..i stopped mastarbation/porn for 31 days...the 30st day i mastarbated without porn and i cummed extreme a lot in about 3-5 minutes ....i was dissapointed for 2 reasons...first i wanted the porn recovery cycle to be about 2 weeks more.and second i was worried i cummed that easy...after this event i was thinking wtf..i will not have a erection disfunction problem never again,but now my problem is premature ejucation?so i after 10 days i mastarbated again without porn but it took me about 5-6 minutes to cum...i am worried, i overcome one problem(not had erections with every girl but almost all) and now my problem is i cumm to easy? any advice?greetings from Creta(greece)..and thanks for your time
Don't be dissapointed! My guess is that this is your first attempt? then 31 days is excellent! Just pick up the pace and don't stare at the calender the entire day
.
I honestly don't think that 5-6 miutes is considered premature ejaculation. Yes you do become a whole lot more sensitive. But for me this was necessary, since I couldn't enjoy oral sex.
I would say: fuck more women
. Keep in mind that there is a difference between the sensations of a vagina and your hand
But you'll be helped a lot, if you would sign up at
http://www.reuniting.info/ and post your story there. A lot of the people there should be able to help you out.
Good luck with this guys!
thanks a lot for the help....and the quick reply...i will post it...
chourds Wrote:hello guys i want to ask something...i am 19 years old..i stopped mastarbation/porn for 31 days...the 30st day i mastarbated without porn and i cummed extreme a lot in about 3-5 minutes ....i was dissapointed for 2 reasons...first i wanted the porn recovery cycle to be about 2 weeks more.and second i was worried i cummed that easy...after this event i was thinking wtf..i will not have a erection disfunction problem never again,but now my problem is premature ejucation?so i after 10 days i mastarbated again without porn but it took me about 5-6 minutes to cum...i am worried, i overcome one problem(not had erections with every girl but almost all) and now my problem is i cumm to easy? any advice?greetings from Creta(greece)..and thanks for your time
That's totally natural dude. I'm pretty sure that anyone who hasn't gotten off in a month would cum quickly and produce a significant volume of ejaculate. Don't worry that it was 'easy'. It's only because you went for so long without. And like crazyhorse said, 5-6 minutes is not considered 'premature ejaculation'. On the rare occassions it takes me that long to get off when masturbating, I definitely don't consider it pre-mature. It sounds like things are coming along (pardon the pun) just fine for you.
When I go for 3-4 weeks without orgasm, I can get so sensitive that merely touching it (not stroking) can bring me close to an orgasm. Especially when it's combined with high arousal. So, yes, normal.
What I wonder, though, is how guys can say they come in X minutes, as if they can't stop themselves from coming. As a person who's had many porn sessions that would last hours, I can basically be on the edge of orgasm for, well, hours. I am in full control of whether I come or not. If I get close I can feel it and then adjust the stimulation accordingly. You get even more control if you use those muscles down there that you can use to stop the flow of pee (or ejaculate).
Is it true that some guys can masturbate and then orgasm without intending to?
I've noticed that is has a big influence on my benefits if I fantasize or not. It seems that avoiding fantasy is my major problem in the reboot. Does anyone also has this kind of rebooting-process? I mean a few days ago I avoided fantasies as much as possible for about 24 hours and my skin improved DRAMATICALLY at the next day. Just imagine: I suffered from acne for years and within one single (!!!) day my skin looked like I manipulated it with photoshop. By the fact it's hard to keep discipline for F., so my skin gets worse and then better etc.
So does anyone has a similar type of rebooting- process?
TheAnimal Wrote:I've noticed that is has a big influence on my benefits if I fantasize or not. It seems that avoiding fantasy is my major problem in the reboot. Does anyone also has this kind of rebooting-process? I mean a few days ago I avoided fantasies as much as possible for about 24 hours and my skin improved DRAMATICALLY at the next day. Just imagine: I suffered from acne for years and within one single (!!!) day my skin looked like I manipulated it with photoshop. By the fact it's hard to keep discipline for F., so my skin gets worse and then better etc.
So does anyone has a similar type of rebooting- process?
Interesting... Lately I've fantasized (and masturbated without orgasm) and my skin looks bad now. But yeah it's just so damn hard to avoid sexual thoughts altogether.
Halo Effect Wrote:When I go for 3-4 weeks without orgasm, I can get so sensitive that merely touching it (not stroking) can bring me close to an orgasm. Especially when it's combined with high arousal. So, yes, normal.
What I wonder, though, is how guys can say they come in X minutes, as if they can't stop themselves from coming. As a person who's had many porn sessions that would last hours, I can basically be on the edge of orgasm for, well, hours. I am in full control of whether I come or not. If I get close I can feel it and then adjust the stimulation accordingly. You get even more control if you use those muscles down there that you can use to stop the flow of pee (or ejaculate).
Is it true that some guys can masturbate and then orgasm without intending to?
ha, seems like I'm not the only one with that habbit! I really made it an excercise for myself to last as long as possibly could.
But I'm no match for the world chamion of masturbation!
Seriouslly... "So euhm what are your trophies for?" ,"oh I masturbate" I see.....
TheAnimal Wrote:I've noticed that is has a big influence on my benefits if I fantasize or not. It seems that avoiding fantasy is my major problem in the reboot. Does anyone also has this kind of rebooting-process? I mean a few days ago I avoided fantasies as much as possible for about 24 hours and my skin improved DRAMATICALLY at the next day. Just imagine: I suffered from acne for years and within one single (!!!) day my skin looked like I manipulated it with photoshop. By the fact it's hard to keep discipline for F., so my skin gets worse and then better etc.
So does anyone has a similar type of rebooting- process?
I noticed on the reuniting forum, that you've posted there. For me my skin has never really been a problem, but I've definetly read about experiences from people who said that their skin is less oily. Perhaps this could explain your acne? It seems that it might be best for you to leave it behind.
How is it going so far actually?
Halo Effect Wrote:Interesting... Lately I've fantasized (and masturbated without orgasm) and my skin looks bad now. But yeah it's just so damn hard to avoid sexual thoughts altogether.
These reboot stories are so diverse. For some their voices gets deeper, for others it's something totally different. It really just shows how complex all of this is.
Relapse!
Some observations:
1. My trigger was, oddly, the flatline (and a few fleeting memories of porn scenes).
2. When I watched the porn, I could feel my head hurt. It was very strange.
The good news is, I successfully fought the urge to binge, which is what I usually do. 3 weeks in ain't shabby. I think next time I'll masturbate without porn when this happens.
was in some short phases less oily+ had less pickles+ was shining.
Don't know if I could be satisfied. If I have the discipline to avoid fantasies my mind becomes more clear sometimes my skin becomes better within one day.
I had the idea to have some "free time" every day in my reboot. E.g.: Day1 fantasizing half an hour Day 2 20min. ... Day 5 5 min etc. So, that you could gradual improve your discipline. But once I tried that, the cravings were more intense the next days so it was even harder to resist the following days.
That's why I think you really have to avoid fantasy completely, which is unfair because: If you want to improve in any other areas in your life you can begin with the 1.step. It seems that if I do this ,the 2nd and following steps become more difficult. I have to train on the "last step" which means: NO -,M,O AND F(!). And this all the time if I want to have benefits.
Of course you could say you don't have to be really that strict. But I am at Day 27 and my benefits aren't mentionable, that's why I think I really have to do the perfect "no-pmof" for a while, which is fucking hard!! I sometimes have the fear that it was for nothing if I don't kill the fantasies. And the majority has major problems only ateir watching-porn-addiction. Which means if they don't avoid fantasies they would still get some good benefits. For me, that is not the case, so I'm feeling somehow lonely...
TheAnimal Wrote:was in some short phases less oily+ had less pickles+ was shining.
Don't know if I could be satisfied. If I have the discipline to avoid fantasies my mind becomes more clear sometimes my skin becomes better within one day.
I had the idea to have some "free time" every day in my reboot. E.g.: Day1 fantasizing half an hour Day 2 20min. ... Day 5 5 min etc. So, that you could gradual improve your discipline. But once I tried that, the cravings were more intense the next days so it was even harder to resist the following days.
That's why I think you really have to avoid fantasy completely, which is unfair because: If you want to improve in any other areas in your life you can begin with the 1.step. It seems that if I do this ,the 2nd and following steps become more difficult. I have to train on the "last step" which means: NO -,M,O AND F(!). And this all the time if I want to have benefits.
Of course you could say you don't have to be really that strict. But I am at Day 27 and my benefits aren't mentionable, that's why I think I really have to do the perfect "no-pmof" for a while, which is fucking hard!! I sometimes have the fear that it was for nothing if I don't kill the fantasies. And the majority has major problems only ateir watching-porn-addiction. Which means if they don't avoid fantasies they would still get some good benefits. For me, that is not the case, so I'm feeling somehow lonely...
it is, but it definetly pays off
It's not going terribly. I haven't watched porn or masturbated. I haven't been sleeping well at ALL for the last week, though. Finding it very hard to fall asleep, and continually waking up in the middle of the night. I'm finding that even the smallest things are getting me aroused, however. I've only kissed one girl in the past week, too, which didn't get me aroused, however, while I was driving the other day, one of the girls I'm seeing was massaging my neck and playing with my hair and I got BLUE BALLS after this!! Getting pretty intense. That being said, I haven't really noticed any other changes. I think I can make it 30 days no problem. We'll see how I feel about it after that. Stay tuned.
I think 1x masturbation with porn in a week is ok.
@Mark
Can you changes the colour of the text to black?
Though I've masturbated and occasionally used porn, I've noticed that my porn use has dropped enormously. Masturbated like a madman for a few days after I had a rendez-vous with a nice woman, but I seem to be back to normal.
The only thing now are the fantasies. I keep replaying memories past lovers while masturbating. And though that might be natural, it does prevent me from being in the moment. But overall, I've gone from daily masturbation to once every 2-3 days. Also, I try to enjoy it more than just consider it release or a quick fix. The odd thing is that I don't care about masturbation as much as I used to. My path to my brain off of porn and masturbation might not be complete, but I'm starting to see benefits. And I don't even miss porn that much anymore.
Just beware of the stressed-out or lonely and bored moments. Those are the moments where I actively to make sure I don't masturbate. When keeping busy, I don't feel the need.
Does anyone has beend ill during the reboot? What were the consequences? Did the benefits decreased? I ask this, because this could be a reason for my lack of benefits although I'm doing this for 4 weeks.
Hey Animal,
it would be useful if you described the severity of your porn usage (how often a week, how often you masturbated with porn, when you first began using porn). Do you have the "iron fist" or struggle to come during intercourse? It would also be useful to know what kind of disease you got and whether you're flatlining. The process itself is not simple and does vary from person to person, a minority experiences first results after the usual 4-6 weeks. Do you fantasize a lot?
TheAnimal Wrote:Does anyone has beend ill during the reboot? What were the consequences? Did the benefits decreased? I ask this, because this could be a reason for my lack of benefits although I'm doing this for 4 weeks.
If I remember correctly, I was ill in the first month of my reboot. I was very low energy all the time, so I didn't have the high energy everybody was raving about.
Zelazny Wrote:Just beware of the stressed-out or lonely and bored moments. Those are the moments where I actively to make sure I don't masturbate. When keeping busy, I don't feel the need.
That is my downfall as well. Having to keep a close eye on myself during these moments.
And coming home late and drunk.
I'm 18 and began watching porn with 12 or 13 I think. Because with 12 and a half I just started to masturbate normally so I think it should be a bit later ( probably at 13). At this time I can't remember anymore how much porn I used. But I know before 2 years watching porn wasn't that exciting. I needed harder stuff. So my desire developed into a fetish, which is quite weird. And I watched also a lot videos of it and I fantasized a lot about this fetish. The only good thing is that I've never liven out this fetish. So I only watched it and fantasized about it. When my fetish developed I think that normal porn ( and so also real girls) became even less interesting. I know that I fell in love in a girl when I was about 15 (maybe 16) which should show that I wasn't that harmed by porn until this point. I'm also objectively aware that some girls are beautiful , but I were never attracted to most girls , although I know that most guys were attracted to them. So my genitals don't really react to them. I've had only a few days where I fantasized and masturbated till orgasm with normal and real girls but they only rarely.Maybe 1-2 times a month.
When I started No-PMO 8 ( today exactly 30 days ago) I flatlined immediately. It was really the 1st or 2nd day. Is this a good sign? In the first week I also masturbated and fantasized because I didn't know that avoiding these 2 helps that much. In the 2nd week I had a phase were my skin was unbelievably clear(I've acne and it was really shining. Also my eyes brightened. I think these "perfect skin" I had 2 times for about 1-3 days.. I had never skin problems till I were 14-15. And with 15 it began and got always worse, and I didn't know why. About one year ago, the skin-doctor gave me some cremes, which only helped a little bit.And even only in some phases, but most of time my skin didn't change. With no-PMO I had some days where it became better and 2 times (it lasted each time for a day) it was perfect. It was so perfect that others, also girls, noticed that. And this velocity of improvement shows that my acne only ( at least mostl)was caused by the porn use. I had also some days where my voice were deeper and more powerful, the same goes with confidence. Between week 3-4 ( I started to get ill) all my improvements got worse. My skin is now slightly better, because when a pickle develops it is much better the next day. Before no-PMO it was never like this. All the other things like voice, confidence, sexual desire for real women, were lost since I began to be ill. Also, I've never actually had morning wood while No-PMO( also not before it). The only thing which I've learned,that I avoiding fantasy is very essential for my benefits ( reboot).
About my illness: I don't know how to express because English is not my mother tongue. I've head cold/snuffles. I know that this sounds harmless. But I've had since childhood problems with my nose, so if I'm ill than I've to 95% the cold. So I'm feeling also a bit foggy-brained. I'm saying this because when I've got benefits during the reboot the days before my mind was not foggy-brained due to fantasies and porn. When I avoided additional to P,O also M and especially F(!!!) than my mind became clear, I had no bullshit in my head and on the next day I had already some benefits. So,I knew if my had was full of shit , it was because I didn't avoid M/F and I've had decreased or no benefits. Till week 1 I tried not to fantasize. In my reboot I've had about 2-3 days where I've been quite bad. I had fantasized , even about my fetish, masturbated ( but not really excessive as before the reboot) I nearly orgasmed one time. But I've nerver watched porn, read porn, ejaculated about porn OR to anything else. So at avoiding P & O I was perfect.
Jesus, I wrote a lot and that sounds extremely complicated. If anyone reads this and has questions, just ask.
TheAnimal Wrote:I'm 18 and began watching porn with 12 or 13 I think. Because with 12 and a half I just started to masturbate normally so I think it should be a bit later ( probably at 13). At this time I can't remember anymore how much porn I used. But I know before 2 years watching porn wasn't that exciting. I needed harder stuff. So my desire developed into a fetish, which is quite weird. And I watched also a lot videos of it and I fantasized a lot about this fetish. The only good thing is that I've never liven out this fetish. So I only watched it and fantasized about it. When my fetish developed I think that normal porn ( and so also real girls) became even less interesting. I know that I fell in love in a girl when I was about 15 (maybe 16) which should show that I wasn't that harmed by porn until this point. I'm also objectively aware that some girls are beautiful , but I were never attracted to most girls , although I know that most guys were attracted to them. So my genitals don't really react to them. I've had only a few days where I fantasized and masturbated till orgasm with normal and real girls but they only rarely.Maybe 1-2 times a month.
When I started No-PMO 8 ( today exactly 30 days ago) I flatlined immediately. It was really the 1st or 2nd day. Is this a good sign? In the first week I also masturbated and fantasized because I didn't know that avoiding these 2 helps that much. In the 2nd week I had a phase were my skin was unbelievably clear(I've acne and it was really shining. Also my eyes brightened. I think these "perfect skin" I had 2 times for about 1-3 days.. I had never skin problems till I were 14-15. And with 15 it began and got always worse, and I didn't know why. About one year ago, the skin-doctor gave me some cremes, which only helped a little bit.And even only in some phases, but most of time my skin didn't change. With no-PMO I had some days where it became better and 2 times (it lasted each time for a day) it was perfect. It was so perfect that others, also girls, noticed that. And this velocity of improvement shows that my acne only ( at least mostl)was caused by the porn use. I had also some days where my voice were deeper and more powerful, the same goes with confidence. Between week 3-4 ( I started to get ill) all my improvements got worse. My skin is now slightly better, because when a pickle develops it is much better the next day. Before no-PMO it was never like this. All the other things like voice, confidence, sexual desire for real women, were lost since I began to be ill. Also, I've never actually had morning wood while No-PMO( also not before it). The only thing which I've learned,that I avoiding fantasy is very essential for my benefits ( reboot).
About my illness: I don't know how to express because English is not my mother tongue. I've head cold/snuffles. I know that this sounds harmless. But I've had since childhood problems with my nose, so if I'm ill than I've to 95% the cold. So I'm feeling also a bit foggy-brained. I'm saying this because when I've got benefits during the reboot the days before my mind was not foggy-brained due to fantasies and porn. When I avoided additional to P,O also M and especially F(!!!) than my mind became clear, I had no bullshit in my head and on the next day I had already some benefits. So,I knew if my had was full of shit , it was because I didn't avoid M/F and I've had decreased or no benefits. Till week 1 I tried not to fantasize. In my reboot I've had about 2-3 days where I've been quite bad. I had fantasized , even about my fetish, masturbated ( but not really excessive as before the reboot) I nearly orgasmed one time. But I've nerver watched porn, read porn, ejaculated about porn OR to anything else. So at avoiding P & O I was perfect.
your english is quite understandable though
let me go through to a few of your points:
-First of all I think you're doing really great! I remember I couldn't go for 30 days of no PMO the first time. So definetly congratulate yourself on that one! How did you this? meditation? Please share us your secret
-Just like with me, you're porn use escalated. I also remember a time when I was loosing my erections between videos. It's good that you've had at least some experience with real life women before this though. I know men who never head this, for them it's going to be very difficult.
- The flatline can be quite a bitch, this is mostly because you start to think that it's perhaps you who is just like that. DON'T THINK THAT! Only use your positive experiencces during this reboot to define yourself as a person.
- Rebooting isn't linear at all. At some days you'll feel amazing, have great confidence and at other days you'll feel like crap for no specific reason. You are going to have to accept this, there simply isn't that much that you can do about this. Same with your voice and your skin. The best thing you is look at these bright moments as your true potential that is shining through.
- Morning wood this is a tricky one. What you'll notice, is that when you're coming closer to the point of recovery, you're morning wood will become frequent. Some men have reported up to having morning wood that lasts up to 15 minutes. Just like with you, my porn use, definetly affected this. That is because your morning wood is related to dopamine sensitivity. Which is often less after high stimulation (porn, fetishes).
- You'll have to pay attention to when you masturbate, or are most likely to masturbate. This is crucial so that you can adjust your strategy towards this. F.E. if you are tempted to masturbate when you're alone during the evening, decide to go for a bit of excercise. What will happen, is that you'll be tired afterwards and you won't have such a strong urge.
Like I wrote earlier in this forum, three weeks ago I had a moment where I looked at porn (45 minutes). Just like my former sessions. The changes afterwards in my behavior were really amazing (not in a positive way though
). I lost my libido again, morning wood was less present. The reason for this, is because the porn pathways in my brain were reactivated again. It's like with a former alcoholic I guess, they have to let go of it 100%. The funny thing was, that my libido was returning and it was stronger then ever + I was also having morning wood 20 out of 21 days. Which felt great again.
Honestly Animal I really think you're doing great. At this moment I'm continuing no PMO myself, just like I did earlier. Lately I've been starting to maturbate a bit more, but I'll just have to readjust myself again until I'm back to normal. I've also blocked every bit of access to porn in my house, which helps a lot (see conversation with my dad on reuniting).
Crazyhorse, I really have to thank you. You have read this long post and gave me a great answer. What bothers me is , if the benefits I experienced already in my reboot in the early phase will be the stable results in the end of my reboot? I mean, this would be quite logic. I gave my brain about 5-10 days of no-pmo and hat great benefits. And when i'm giving it 30, 40,60 days the benefits should be stable , right? I don't need any s tronger, or more intense benefits I just want to have them for the long-term. I hope I don't expect too much.
Also, Marnie told me if I masturbate I should concentrate on my sensation. Well, it's not a great feeling but it is quite acceptable. Maybe this is a pos. effect, too.
To your question , how I have made the 30 days. Well, by the fact, that I flatlined immediately I just had no desire to think about women. At least at the beginning. Then there were these great benefits ( I reall fell in love with my face, when my skin got better). ---> this gave me a huge motivation boost. + the fact that I can produce these benefits by avoiding M and F as much as possible. And other people wrote that they have social anxieties because of porn use. I wasn't aware of that. I just thought I have a low-self esteem and could never improve even when I was great at sth. When you would know me, you would never say that I am shy. But still, my social anx. are sometimes not only weird but also strong, that I have had no idea where the correlation between "not being shy" and "having social anx" is. And porn was sth. which has fucked up my life for years. I mean I'm a young guy, my physical appearance and real character just doesn't fit with my stupid "porn-character". But I've to say that my motivation was low since week 3, at that point I thought I should relapse because I thought the benefits won't come back. Meditating and martial arts really helped me, which I really love.
The funny thing is : since week 3-4 ( where I've not avoided M and F) my flatline was stronger again. Other people say that after relapse or watching porn they have strong chasers. But not for me: I've only had "to fight" for the rest of the day and the next day, at the following day the flatline came again and till today the sexual desire is still low.
Guys, are you aware of the correlation between your benefits at the beginning and in the reboot-end? Are there differences?