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My issue is this. I'm a really social guy but it seems like I'm at my best when I can be in a group and people can hear me talk. It's really weird, but I feel like once I'm a dance environment, I get bored. And this happens really quickly. I find that the conversations get boring and it seems like I don't really like dancing.

It's weird to write this, cause I'm a really outgoing guy. But it seems like I lose all of that when I enter a dance environment. I'm not completely sure what it is.

Another issue is that I tend to value my 8 hours of sleep. I'm definetly keen on my quality of sleep. You see, during the day I love to read, write a speech, excercise... But if I'm sleep deprivated from going out, I have to force myself way too much and the quality of my work drops enormously. Not to mention that my focus drops. I really don't like this, since I tend to value my intellectual pursuits.

I also value my own projects very highly, this includes my own personal development. And I feel that when I go out to a club and I know that I'm gonna be sleep deprivated the next day, I'm gonna be less inclined to work on these. Or at least not with the same type of work ethic.

It also messes with your sleep schedule if you go out 3 times a week. I'm serious, you become a night person and this just sucks. This last part also leads me to neglect of my diet.

I read something similar on Goodlookingloser's website. He said he also values his 8 hours of sleep and his healthy lifestyle. I'm not that different.

Anybody who can relate?

I'm not sure there's anything I love 100%, with the exception of my own mother. Even some of my favorite things in the world, like music, or college football, have things I don't like about them.

No one's forcing you to have to love or even like going to the club. I love to dance, and love loud music, and pretty girls, but there's plenty of things that suck about most clubs. Yea, the drinks are ridiculously expensive, it's loud, and bouncers and promoters can have ridiculous ego complexes, but what I dislike the most about them is the sense of forced fun. Going to "tha club" is seen as so central to pick up (not meaning PUA, though it is central in that too) culture and just young adult culture in general it's almost like you're guilted into feeling terrible if you're not having the time of your life there. It's not that serious!

Despite that, I've managed to have fun times in clubs too. You can make fun times out of almost anything. I personally enjoy things that a bit more grimey or low key most of the time, but I've had fun at clubs too.

So go to the club when you think you'll enjoy it. Go when it's your buddy's birthday there, or you really wanna get out and dance, or you wanna celebrate finishing some big project by poppin' champagne and makin' it rain, but don't just go cause it's Friday night and you need to have fun and this is what people tell you is fun. If you would just enjoy the sleep or doing your own projects more, make sure you do that first instead.

well yeah, I'm going to have to look for a balance here. I love my projects, books and my speeches. I also love social contact though, it's just that when I hit these super loud environments I tend to get bored pretty quickly. haha for most people it's the opposite .

I'll see how it evolves over time.

What you're telling me about forced fun is something that I can relate to very well. Maybe I also feel that I need to act a certain way? I'll check my motives later on.

But perhaps I'm just not the person who really likes them. But I am going to have to find a way to deal with that. I mean people ask me "arn't you having fun" haha.

But you're right there should be plenty of alternatives available.

No I can definitely relate. I'm pretty much an introvert going about my everyday life, and I enjoy my projects and whatnot (though I'm not much of a sleeper, unfortunately), but I also do DJ out a bit and have plenty of friends who ask me to go out to things. I don't think you should assume for all or even most people that they hit a super loud environment and they instantly have fun, there's plenty of people who don't enjoy this and either don't go in the first place, or you just don't really notice while you're there.

The forced fun thing is interesting cause I think there's a lot of social pressure that goes into it. Even at places that don't have a strict dress code, there's all sorts of weird social norms in play. You wouldn't go to a goth club dressed in neon. You wouldn't go to a hipster hangout and start throwing down Jagerbombs and fist pumping. You wouldn't go to the Jersey Shore and request My Bloody Valentine. Definitely a lot of pressure to act a certain way.

I don't want to monopolize the conversation or go overly long, so I'll refer to advice of someone who knew how to rock a club:

For me it depends HUGELY on the club and the music they are playing and the crowd. I'm currently in love with the Nest in Dalston (if you are in London you should definitely check it out if you're into electro, especially the Soulwax/2manyDJs/Erol Alkan/Maya Jane Coles crowd). I go there and I have a great time and want to stay up and dance all night, but put me in Mahiki and I'm going to be bored to tears. It's fine to not be into a particular scene, or not be into it all the time.

I used to only like clubs if there were hot girls there, hated them otherwise. I've grown to really love them. I love the music, I love drinking, I love dancing, I (still) love the girls, and I like going with friends. Clubs are not about talking, and frankly, I get kind of annoyed these days if someone wants to have a long conversation in a club. Clubs are for letting lose, getting out of your head, experiencing your body, and doing crazy and fun things. I love them.

I'll check out different clubs then.

It's not that I want to have long conversations in a club though, it just seemed to be my experience that I got bored pretty quickly.

I'll see how it evolves.

Yeah, the quality and style of the club matters a lot. Some of them are superficial and trashy. Others have really bad DJ's. But if you find a nice one with a good crowd and good music, they're great. I can go all night in them.

crazyhorse I can relate to what you're saying about the sleep. I value my sleep a lot too and find my productivity really drops if I don't get enough. I've never really been an all night out person (really admire those who can go out few times a week but still have enough energy to work the next day), but have learned to enjoy clubs as well.

What's worked for me is if I know I'll be heading out, to allocate more time to sleep in on the next day & shuffle my activities/plans around it. Sure, I'll get less done and might be stoned the next day but there's also a need to let loose and just relax sometimes

I think IdEngager says it best here:

(05-11-2012 06:48 PM)IdEngager Wrote: [ -> ]So go to the club when you think you'll enjoy it. Go when it's your buddy's birthday there, or you really wanna get out and dance, or you wanna celebrate finishing some big project by poppin' champagne and makin' it rain, but don't just go cause it's Friday night and you need to have fun and this is what people tell you is fun. If you would just enjoy the sleep or doing your own projects more, make sure you do that first instead.

so just this saturday i went to a proper club for the first time since 2007 (i was just 18 then).

it was incredible! i was completely blown away! this is coming from a man who thought clubs were shit.

over the past number of months i had been seriously wondering where all the hot young girls hang out (18-24). i had been to many of my city's top bars and found the quality disappointing and the average age of women pretty high. pickings were slim. there's only so many hot women in a bar and you can usually count them on one hand.

went out to a club and it was like walking onto a porn set. never seen as much tits, ass and legs as i had up until saturday night. there would have been at least 10-15 times as many hot women. they were all pretty young. ratio was 50/50. it was ideal.

i was really surprised by my competition too. the guys were pretty young (18-21), mostly anglo, not well built, not confident, mostly bad dancers. i was expecting packs of aggressive guys on roids around my age (23) but these guys weren't to be seen. not many guys of southern european decent (stereotypically perceived as sexually confident/club going/gym junkie types). i was gaming like a mofo and wasn't obstructed once by guys the entire night which i found surprising.

i was one of the tallest even though i'm not that tall (6'0). note, i did wear height insoles in my boots to give myself a few more inches. i think height advantage is a good thing to have on the dance floor. taller girls in particular target you because they often don't want to pick up guys shorter.

basically, it was incredibly fun. i picked up two girls and fingered one. almost took her home but she couldn't leave her friends. should have picked up a third but got distracted and missed her invite to the dancefloor. these girls put out. my mate has picked up 3 girls from 3 visits and he's pretty young looking and only 5"7. he usually picks up girls sitting down (solid strategy for shorter guys).

i spent $20 on entry and that was it. i was so excited i didn't need to drink because when i feel like i'm a state of abundance i don't need alcohol. met a dude later on in the night that promised me free entry for next week. i'm definitely going back.

here's my assessment
1. ease of picking up: much greater. saw many pickups.
2. talent: considerably higher/many more girls too.
3. ratio: more favourable
4. cliques: nowhere near as bad
5. male competition: medium to low
6. drink prices: more expensive but not by much
7: fun level: higher, although i was having more fun than the average
8: conversational environment: not as bad as i would have thought.
9: music: brilliant

overall: pretty good. if you haven't been in a number of years like me prior to saturday night, i recommend you give clubs another go.

Sounds like you lucked out and found a really good club. Clubs vary a LOT in quality of the crowd, quality of the music, ratio, price, sleaziness, etc.

i met up with the club manager today thinking i could get a job as a barman on saturdays. he said i was not experienced enough but suggested i could be a promoter. we got on pretty well. i learned a bit about how he runs his business which i found pretty interesting.

i'm quite ambivalent about 'promotion' as i've seen many guys ruin their rep by spamming. i don't have club going friends. i'm not an ideal promoter type. i won't create facebook events or send out texts.

on the other hand i get free entry for myself and a mate, plus $5 for each person. if i get a birthday girl to come, she gets free entry and a free bottle of champagne, if it's a guy he gets 3 drink cards. i might get some good social status at a cool place if i play my cards right.

there's no pressure for me to 'make it big' so i might just round up a couple of people from time to time. i won't be going every week - even though it's only on saturday nights. i was thinking i'd just try targeting: 1) backpackers (if i happen to bump into them), 2) people already at the venue but not using a list (hey are you a list? use mine next week).

i can get 10 people or so ($50) and free entry that's enough for me. if i can't even do that, i'll just let him know it's not my thing.

(05-14-2012 07:48 PM)Mark Wrote: [ -> ]Sounds like you lucked out and found a really good club. Clubs vary a LOT in quality of the crowd, quality of the music, ratio, price, sleaziness, etc.

Yes. This feels absurd to write but it took me two years to "get good" at clubbing. Here's what I figured out. I'm actually going to go ahead and mention the clubs by name.

low end clubs
At first I was going to B and C list clubs. Basically, these are places that will do some minimum screening at the door to root out the real douchebags and people who don't know how to follow the dress code (white socks) but will let almost anyone in until the club gets full (sometime between midnight and 1). Very large groups of guys get hit up for bottle service. Only trick to getting in here - show up in groups of 2 or at most 3 guys around 11, no problem getting in.

These places have a better gender ratio than your average club, but probably same average level of attractiveness. Drinks are way more expensive, though. There's also a bit more stuffiness and cliquiness than at a normal bar. The most fun people there are usually the tourists. Regulars there are not the best crowd.

Oh, and given the above, any guy who actually buys bottle service here will turn out to be an absolute wanker. There's actually something mentally wrong with those people.

Clubs in this vein include Kiss & Fly, Hudson Terrace, and some others whose names are escaping me at the moment. One caveat with Kiss & Fly is that, apparently, they have very european style house music with quite solid DJs (not the huge names, but very good established DJs) and there is a core of people who show up because it's one of the best places for that style of music. It's not my thing, but for some people it's a big draw.

the a list clubs
There are, in NY, sub-types of a list clubs. There are two main categories: money clubs and scene clubs. Money clubs are, like I said, about money. It's a heavily wall street environment. Scene clubs are about cool. It's fashion and entertainment.

the money clubs

Money clubs are the stereotype of club. When somebody talks about "clubbing" this is what they often mean. Promoters are scouring the city to find the hottest women, entice them will free alcohol, and then entice rich men to buy bottles by promising them the hot women. I rarely go to these clubs, usually when somebody else is buying, or if I have enough women that I can get in. One thing that has happened at some places like this is that I will show up with few girls, couple of guys, and they will offer a bar tab - like if I put down my card and run up a 300 tab, I get in. Not really my thing.

I also don't find these places all that fun. It's all quite mercenary.

Places like this include:

Avenue (although that place is past its prime)
The Electric Room
PhD
Provocateur (the Gansevoort basement)

The Electric Room and Provocateur are also extreme versions of this - they are so small that they really, really gouge you.

the scene clubs

These are, to my mind, the best of clubbing. They don't push bottle service too hard. They will also not even let guys buy bottles if they do not have the right vibe. These places are about style. As a guy, if you look the part, you get in, no questions asked. Gender ratios get taken into account, but they will make allowances if they like you. On the other hand, if you are not dressed the part, it's over.

When inside, these places are way more fun than the money clubs. The girls are there to check out the scene and hang out with trendy people. They aren't looking to nab a banker. People get drunker and wilder than at the money clubs. A lot more european tourists and expatriates than any other place. Most of these clubs are actually run by Parisians.

The flip side is, these clubs don't rely on having promoters bring tons of hot women, so the average level of attractiveness, while quite high, is not the same as the money clubs. Word of mouth and the types of crowd tends to attract a lot of very attractive women, but the money clubs put a thumb on the scale by heavy use of promoters. That said, I am way more likely to have something in common with the women at these clubs. I have met tons of women who were not only very attractive, but also doing something interesting with their lives. Plus, I can deal with a woman who's a bit too scene obsessed way more easily than a woman who is gold-digging.

The scene clubs are:

Le Bain
The Boom Boom Room
Red Egg
Le Baron - this is the newest of the bunch.

Club promoting is a tough job. If you're not really bout it bout it, I DO NOT recommend that you get into it. I don't pretend to know everything about running a successful club, but I dabble on the music side (being an occasional DJ and occasional performing musician) and I have way too many friends who are DJs or bartenders or promoters. There are some obviously fantastic benefits (throwing a great night feels awesome, girls girls girls, free drinks/drugs if you are remotely competent, money if you're actually good), but the downsides are aplenty and no one tells you about:

1) The 50/10/5 Rule: for any Facebook event you create, 50% of the people who click "Attending" will actually go, 10% of the maybes will go, and 5% of the undecideds will go. People are busy, people are flaky, shit happens. Someone will be at work til 9 and be too tired to go to your event after. Someone will break up with their girlfriend. Someone will have conflicting events. If you need at least 10 people to show up, that really means you need at least 20 people to say they'll show up. If you need 100 to fill a room, you really need 200 people to say they'll be there. Your percentage of people who show up goes up and down depending on method (highest being talking to someone personally, lowest being putting up a flyer), but you can see how this can quickly get tiring if you're doing this all the time.

2) Dealing with your venue: some venue owners are great people, some are complete sleazebags, some have no idea what they're doing, everyone's just trying to get by cause it's a tough market. Something will inevitably break that you desperately need not to break (usually the soundsystem or bathroom). Some bouncer won't let your friends in. Someone will schedule a conflicting event. You will inevitably be lowballed on pay despite the fact that this place would be empty without your night. You're pretty much batting above par though if your place doesn't get shut down by the VICE cops and/or mafia.

If I wanted to make money, I would never open a club/bar/music venue, unless I really, really believed in what I was getting into.

3) Dealing with your musical talent: musicians and DJs are flakes. I know cause I am one. There will be times when they are late and you are like WTF? They will want to get paid, and it usually won't be enough. They will occasionally/fairly often have egos and be tough to deal with. Really though, they are the least of your concerns cause they usually actually want to be there.

I list musical talent on here though because the music is 1a in creating the right vibe for a club. If you are promoting a club with shit music, you are dead in the water to begin with. Regardless if it's a house/hip hop/indie/top 40 night, if you don't have someone who can get the floor moving or at least draw a crowd, you might as well go home. If you are the band or DJ, don't suck. On the other hand, I will go to a warehouse or empty lot for DJs or bands I like.

4) Fuckheads: 95% of the people who go out are great people and just want to have a good time, even if you may not get along with each one of them personally. The other 5% will cause trouble and get you shut down or drive away your crowd. These are the people who start fights, do mad drugs/deal drugs in the bathroom, and otherwise cause mad drama. All these are inevitable, just keep them in check before anything real bad happens.

5) Partying will be your job: it's all good when it's good, but there will be nights when it sucks. There will be nights when it rains unexpectedly and no one wants to come out, or something else is happening across town that everyone is at. You'll have to be out til 2 or 3 regardless, you can't just skip out on your own club. You will agree to do events that you know won't work, and you will spend hours promoting it despite that. And sort of like being a dating coach, it's easy to fall into the trap where your social life IS your whole identity.

Other than that, club promoting is a fun, exciting career with unlimited possibilities!

(05-15-2012 02:19 PM)Jon Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-14-2012 07:48 PM)Mark Wrote: [ -> ]Sounds like you lucked out and found a really good club. Clubs vary a LOT in quality of the crowd, quality of the music, ratio, price, sleaziness, etc.

Le Bain
The Boom Boom Room
Red Egg
Le Baron - this is the newest of the bunch.

Appreciate the post, Jon. Could you give a better idea of the vibe/dress code it takes to get into these "scene" places? Would love to see a few pictures, as I imagine it's a bit more than just a pair of nice jeans and a button down?