Why him? Why here by Helen Fisher

[crazyhorse]

I've just read the book "Why him? Why here?" by Helen Fisher.

I actually want to recommend it here. Not that it was that groundshaking, but it can really give you some great insights into your personality and your behavior.

The theme of her book is that there are 4 hormones that can make a personality. There is dopamine, serotonine, testosteron and estrogen. Based on a survey, you can find out what your type is.

My dominant type was explorer, I scored 35/42 on a scale that measures how much dopamine you have.
My secondary type was director (26/42) and negotiator (24/42). So it seems that I'm having both reasonable ammounts of testosterone and estrogen in my body. Appearently Bill Clinton had this as well and it's also quite common with football players.

It will also give you insights into why you're attracted to some people, while others you're not.

[Jani]

Nice, thank you for the recommendation!!

In my opinion is the optimization of hormones a very important, yet overlooked part of your life. Just look at how you feel after a good, hard workout. No positive thinking can beat that!!

I hope this book will give some insight. I must say I find a survey for measuring your hormone levels a little bit odd.

[crazyhorse]

(03-15-2012 12:00 AM)Jani Wrote:  Nice, thank you for the recommendation!!

In my opinion is the optimization of hormones a very important, yet overlooked part of your life. Just look at how you feel after a good, hard workout. No positive thinking can beat that!!

I hope this book will give some insight. I must say I find a survey for measuring your hormone levels a little bit odd.

Yeah, the best thing that you can do is a blood sample.

But she uses statements such as "people consider me to be very optimistic", that's a statement were explorers will respond very enthousiastically at. Whereas builders, directors & negotiators won't have these tendencies.

I think blood samples definetly were taken to compose the test, but it's always easier to take a test then to take a blood sample .

yet you'll be amazed at how recognizeable some types can be!

[Jani]

Quote:yet you'll be amazed at how recognizeable some types can be!

That's the problem of typology (MBTI, enneagram,...), it always fit.

The book "You Can Read Anyone - David J. Lieberman" is a good book if you want to read people. It doesn't use typology to predict the behavior of people.
I would recommend you to start reading the 2nd part of the book, because that's where the meat is.

[Mark]

Yup...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forer_effect

Doesn't mean these types of things aren't useful though.... assuming they're based on actual psychological phenomena (hormone levels, MBTI, etc.) and not just some guy pulling stuff out of his ass.

[crazyhorse]

Yep all true

But her questions are very specific.

Such as "do you daydream a lot" / "rules and traditions are very important" / "when I wake up from a dream, it takes me a while to realize that it was just a dream"

I didn't had the feeling that everything fitted, some parts I was like "yes that's me" and others I wasn't into at all.

[Jani]

The way you behave is very contextual and typology doesn't hold that in account where as SNAP (the system in You Can Read Anyone) does.

And MBTI is solely based on empirical evidence, it's pseudo-science. However, I like archetypology if you combine it with marketing. A great book about that is "The Hero and The Outlaw", a must-read!! You going to have a lot of aha-moments realizing why some marketing campaigns work and others don't, for example why Apple is so superior to Microsoft.

[crazyhorse]

(03-15-2012 09:09 AM)Jani Wrote:  The way you behave is very contextual and typology doesn't hold that in account where as SNAP (the system in You Can Read Anyone) does.

And MBTI is solely based on empirical evidence, it's pseudo-science. However, I like archetypology if you combine it with marketing. A great book about that is "The Hero and The Outlaw", a must-read!! You going to have a lot of aha-moments realizing why some marketing campaigns work and others don't, for example why Apple is so superior to Microsoft.

I can agree that some of these behaviors are contextual, but that's usually the eason as to why they are accompanied with a scale. The scale allows more nuance then a simply yes or no would. So if you show off that behavior practically all the time, you give it the highest rating, and vice versa.

I also don't think that the MBTI is pseudo science.

[Jani]

Everybody sees me as a pussy, bad body language, always looking down to the ground, not assertive,... The last year is that changing, because I'm now living proactive.
But, I'm VERY competitive in sport games (basketball, football, soccer,...). The moment that the game is on I'm willing to die to win. I don't care how much it will take, I don't care how many times they beat me down to the ground, I don't care how big the opponents are, I don't care that I'm not standing a chance,... No matter what, I will put 120% of capabilities and passion in the game. During a game I'm a beast, assertive, great body language, confidence,...

No one person has ever expected that, what is a great thing because they think that they can walk over me like off the field. BULLSHIT!!

MBTI can't predict that, and I have many more examples that's just the most extreme.
SNAP can predict that. SNAP uses primary and secondary influence factors that changes depending on the situation to predict your behavior.
The input you get from the world changes, so it's logical that your output (behavior) will vary from moment to moment.

[Chaos]

(03-15-2012 01:41 AM)Mark Wrote:  Yup...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forer_effect

Doesn't mean these types of things aren't useful though.... assuming they're based on actual psychological phenomena (hormone levels, MBTI, etc.) and not just some guy pulling stuff out of his ass.

So true. I've used it to cold read a girl sometimes. I don't do it so much because I feel like a total jerk ... but truth to be told the responses are out of the charts like she thinks you're very perceptive or something. Kind of funny actually. I did a rainbow ruse to one of my girl friends and she was all like "that's so amazing, that's EXACTLY how I am, you're really perceptive, I never knew you could tell so much about me"... after that I explained to her what I've just done

[Mark]

Quote:Everybody sees me as a pussy, bad body language, always looking down to the ground, not assertive,... The last year is that changing, because I'm now living proactive.
But, I'm VERY competitive in sport games (basketball, football, soccer,...). The moment that the game is on I'm willing to die to win. I don't care how much it will take, I don't care how many times they beat me down to the ground, I don't care how big the opponents are, I don't care that I'm not standing a chance,... No matter what, I will put 120% of capabilities and passion in the game. During a game I'm a beast, assertive, great body language, confidence,...

No one person has ever expected that, what is a great thing because they think that they can walk over me like off the field. BULLSHIT!!

MBTI can't predict that, and I have many more examples that's just the most extreme.
SNAP can predict that. SNAP uses primary and secondary influence factors that changes depending on the situation to predict your behavior.
The input you get from the world changes, so it's logical that your output (behavior) will vary from moment to moment.

MBTI is not trying to predict that. That's like calling Penicillin pseudo-science because it didn't help you on your math test.

There's a lot of research behind MBTI. It wasn't pulled out of thin air like a lot of this stuff.

[Chaos]

Fuck Mark, you're already on 20 likes?? I'm giving Tim a like right now...

[Jani]

MBTI is based on the philosophy of Jung and he based it partial on astrology.

http://www.skepdic.com/myersb.html

[crazyhorse]

(03-15-2012 04:03 PM)Jani Wrote:  MBTI is based on the philosophy of Jung and he based it partial on astrology.

http://www.skepdic.com/myersb.html

The MBTI doesn't mention anything about competitiveness. Although I do get your argument that certain behaviors are displayed more in certain situations. Therefore it's best only to use these tools as a heuristic or rule of thumb. In the same way that if you got rated as an extravert, it doesn't mean that you're extraverted 100% of the time. These tools can work as a guideline, although I must say my MBTI type (ENFJ) was pretty damm accurate.

The same goes for the Helen Fisher's test. She researched certain behaviors that are typically expressed under the influence of certain hormones. I have a gut feeling that Mark is, just like myself, primarily influenced by dopamine . These people tend to be very curious, optimistic, have a lot of energy and have a tendency to be interested in a wide variety of topics. On the other hand, people who are primarily influenced by testosterone, arn't interested in a wide variety of topics.They usually have one topic that they excell at. A good example would be your college professor.

I havn't read the link that you've posted, way too much to read. Couldn't you give a summary of some of their arguments? That would make it a whole lot more easier for us to grasp the content of it.

[Jani]

Quote:She researched certain behaviors that are typically expressed under the influence of certain hormones.

You can't use hormones as a good indicator of types. Hormones fluctuate way too much and pretty much everyone in this society has a fucked up hormonal balance.

Quote:way too much to read.

You lazy boy!!
It's about what I said, typology is pseudo-science from empirical evidence.

MBTI is BS without any practical value.
I compare it with the Mystery Method, it sounds fantastic, it gives you a sense of control but it's bs.
It's a needy behavior.

[crazyhorse]

(03-19-2012 10:25 AM)Jani Wrote:  

Quote:She researched certain behaviors that are typically expressed under the influence of certain hormones.

You can't use hormones as a good indicator of types. Hormones fluctuate way too much and pretty much everyone in this society has a fucked up hormonal balance.

Reallly? So the difference between a person who's high on testosterone and high on estrogen shouldn't be ovbious to you? I knew there are estrogens in plastic bottles and such, but I don't think that these can have such a strong influence that they can make your estrogen levels go from low to high. Besides, a fucked up hormonal balance, should in fact, be evidence of the fact that a lot of our behavior is influenced by our hormones. Why should we even have different hormones in the first place?

Quote:way too much to read.

You lazy boy!!
It's about what I said, typology is pseudo-science from empirical evidence.

MBTI is BS without any practical value.
I compare it with the Mystery Method, it sounds fantastic, it gives you a sense of control but it's bs.
It's a needy behavior.
[/quote]

So how does the MBTI work?
1) extravert - introvert
2) Sensing - intuition
3) Thinking - feeling
4) Judging - Perception

For a more detailed outlook on this.

Read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers Briggs_Type_Indicator#Functions:_sensing.2Fintuition_.28S.2FN.29_and_thinking.2F​feeling_.28T.2FF.29

Saying something is bullshit, is not an argument. What Mark said in the beginning of this thread, was the forer effect. With the MBTI, there is no forer effect, it's pretty damm specific.

Seems to me like you're cherry picking. If you got rated as an extravert, does that mean that you are extraverted all of the time? Let's say you normally are, but you lacked sleep that day and wanted to be alone. Does this mean that you arn't an extravert anymore and that the test failed? Hardly.

[Jani]

I know how MBTI works. I've read alot about it, before I took a conclusion.
"It's bullshit" is my opinion, not my argument. My argument is that it's pseudo-science with only empirical evidence that has no practical value.

With MBTI there's a a lot of barnum effect (forer).

Quote:If you got rated as an extravert, does that mean that you are extraverted all of the time? Let's say you normally are, but you lacked sleep that day and wanted to be alone. Does this mean that you arn't an extravert anymore and that the test failed? Hardly.

Being extroverted or introverted has nothing to do with wanting to be alone or not. Its where you get your energy from.
So, your definition of extroverted/introverted isn't correct, but that's a common mistake.

I think it's best we agree to disagree. I highly recommend you read the book 'I can ready anyone'.

[crazyhorse]

(03-19-2012 12:27 PM)Jani Wrote:  I know how MBTI works. I've read alot about it, before I took a conclusion.
"It's bullshit" is my opinion, not my argument. My argument is that it's pseudo-science with only empirical evidence that has no practical value.

With MBTI there's a a lot of barnum effect (forer).

Quote:If you got rated as an extravert, does that mean that you are extraverted all of the time? Let's say you normally are, but you lacked sleep that day and wanted to be alone. Does this mean that you arn't an extravert anymore and that the test failed? Hardly.

Being extroverted or introverted has nothing to do with wanting to be alone or not. Its where you get your energy from.
So, your definition of extroverted/introverted isn't correct, but that's a common mistake.

I think it's best we agree to disagree. I highly recommend you read the book 'I can ready anyone'.

you're right about the extravert, introvert thing. Ironically it's also mentioned in her book "why him? why her?". It's probably best that we agree to disagree, but I still find that you're treating her work very lightly.

She is a highly respected scientist, with years of experience in this stuff. Don't forget that .

[Mark]

Crazyhorse: I'm reading the book at the moment and took the test. Our results are similar.

Dominant type: Explorer (30/42)
Secondary type: Tie! Director and Negotiator both had 27/42

Builder was like 7/42

Book is interesting although it's a bit more fluff than I'd prefer. I think the topic is interesting, but she spends a lot of time telling stories and very little time actually getting into some of the neuro-physiological research behind personality.

Not done yet though so we'll see.

[Mind]

Big 5 is pretty much the most reliable tool for personality assessment. And stable over time. You need at least 2 other people rating you for that.

Judging hormone levels/imbalances by a questionnaire of your behavior (!) (it's just self reporting!) seems extremely dodgy. Very likely because hormones are "in" right now and books need to be sold.

In the end, why should you care for such highly differentiated personality tests? What use is it, if it isn't reliable and time stable?
It doesn't help you to chose a partner, hobbies, profession or even a travel location based on that. Not even that useful for evaluating other people quicker/better (or helps against the fundamental attribution error).

[crazyhorse]

(06-20-2012 09:33 AM)Mind Wrote:  Big 5 is pretty much the most reliable tool for personality assessment. And stable over time. You need at least 2 other people rating you for that.

Judging hormone levels/imbalances by a questionnaire of your behavior (!) (it's just self reporting!) seems extremely dodgy. Very likely because hormones are "in" right now and books need to be sold.

In the end, why should you care for such highly differentiated personality tests? What use is it, if it isn't reliable and time stable?
It doesn't help you to chose a partner, hobbies, profession or even a travel location based on that. Not even that useful for evaluating other people quicker/better (or helps against the fundamental attribution error).

Ever heared of a correlation between a test that you have to take and an actual measurement of hormone levels? Pick up the book, she explains her methodology in the back of her book. Trust me if you read it you'll be amazed about what you'll get out of it.

Seriously read the book before you're even going to comment......

[Nez]

I'll jump in with a positive review on this book. At the very least it makes an excellent conversation starter and can help a person who needs it feel connected with others.

I read the book a few years back when I was first getting into body language studies, it helped me to become more aware of people, of myself and reinforced the idea that people aren't meant to fit one mold.

I tend to go into these things skeptical but optimistic. I like to test it out for myself before I develop a strong opinion. I originally had over 30 people take the test and found it to be fairly accurate to its own system. After the 10th test I started silently predicting what people would be, and have been able to correctly deduce at the very least the two types that a person would fall under (in harder situations I wouldn't know which one was the dominant) The only times it threw me for a loop was when a person was nearly tied across the board or a strong Test/Est type, and that only happened twice. I've never encountered a Dopamine Seratonin type.

I asked for permission to give it to my Sociology and Speech class last year and found that the types were evenly distributed (each dominant type making up 25% of the class) There were about 70 people involved in that one, though it was mostly for fun so I did not dig deeper. I also gave it to the two girlfriends that I have been the most connected with. They were both Dopamine/Estrogen (I am Dopamine/Testosterone)

I'm not saying that it's some set science, or even that the source information is correct (it'll be years before I have my PHD so I'm hardly qualified) But in the paradigm of the book, it checks out. And more than anything it's been fantastic for conversation. I've been to a number of parties where I ended up in the corner with a group of people asking me questions on the subject (I was surprised when they were passing up alcohol to keep listening), helped people feel more comfortable in their relationships and given people make independent transitions the boost that they needed to really start getting to know themselves.

Long story short: If you believe the science behind it, it'll add good things to your life. If you don't, it's a great form of fortune telling (and people will listen) And, while it's a bit fluffy, Helen is a lot better than many of the female psychologists I've read books from on staying on topic and referencing the science. It'd be interesting to get a deeper look into the studies and notes involved.