When I care too much (when I'm needy?)

[Leo]

-When I like a girl a lot I think she’s gonna make me happy even though I don’t know her very well. I think sex with her is gonna be fantastic, even though I haven’t had sex with her yet.
-I want so much to be with her that I don’t want to make a mistake, I want the interaction to be perfect. I’m putting a lot of pressure on myself therefore I feel nervous and don’t do anything. I think she’s so special I forget there are other special girls out there, and I can approach them. I’m so interested in her that I give my power away, what she thinks about me it’s more important that what I think about myself.
-The possibility of rejection scares me because “I can’t lose her” (how can I lose what I don’t have?).
-I’m so nervous that I imagine a lot of horrible situations of what can go wrong, I’m not present, I use a lot of psychological time. Just the possibility of rejection and how awkward the relationship is gonna be afterward scares me. But the relationship could be awkward just for few days and be normal after some time. In the worst case scenario we are not gonna be friends anymore but I have to accept this situation, I have to take the risk. I'm talking about a social circle situation in this case.


How do I behave when I interact with a girl that I don’t like?
-I don’t care about the outcome because I don’t think she can make a huge difference in my life. She’s not gonna make me happy, sex is not gonna be great.
-If she plays stupid games, or is too hard to get together with her for any reason I just move on, who cares?
-I remain objective, I can see her virtues and flaws. There’s no anxiety, I don’t care if I get her or not, therefore I’m relaxed and confident.
-I don’t care what she thinks about me. I don’t give my power away.
-If I approach her and she rejects me or if I pursue her and nothing happens my life doesn’t change AT ALL.
-I don’t think I’m responsible of the whole interaction, she needs to collaborate as well.
-If I see she’s not interested I don’t evaluate myself, I don’t think there’s something wrong with me. Who cares? Next! There are more girls out there.
-There’s nothing to “lose” so I don’t walk on egg shells, I take risks, I’m more aggressive. If she rejects me, my value as a person doesn’t change. I forget about it almost immediately. Life goes on. Next!
-There’s no fear to call her. To ask her out on dates. After all I don’t care.
-I don’t sacrifice myself for her. No nice guy syndrome.
-I can reject her too.
-If she reacts in a negative way because I approach her I think she must be nuts. I don’t take it personally.
-There’s no tunnel vision. There are a lot of options.
-I don’t accept any disrespectful behavior from her. I don’t need to be aggressive about it.
-I don’t need her approval.
-There’s no obsession.

I could see these differences when I interact (or try to interact) with girls that I like after I talked with my sister about a girl I was dating few weeks ago, I really didn't like her BUT I was having sex, so I was "proggressing" somehow in my way to improve my game as a PUA. When I was talking with my sister she asked me: I'm never gonna understand why men date women that they don't like. Why bother?
-Leo: Because there's no anxiety, no worry, therefore we can act freely. There's nothing to "lose".
But how satisfactory can be dating a woman that you don't like too much? How much are you gonna enjoy having sex with her? How does she gonna feel when she notices that you are not really that much into her?
I think all men (and maybe women?) do this to some degree, it's easier, who cares? But unfortunately everything changes when I care, when I have to have the girl.

[baller08]

Leo -

If you take the same attitude you have when it's a girl that you aren't attracted to towards the girls that you are, you'll get much better results. You think that because a girl is pretty she must be different than one who isn't; that is why you automatically assign a bunch of "special" traits to her even though you don't know her.

Attraction is attraction whether the girl is pretty, fat, skinny, or ugly. Most men like good size tits. When a woman wears a low cut shirt and she walks into a room, does it matter what the guy looks like? Are not all guys' attraction triggers flipped?

One of the very first mistakes men make is thinking they have to behave differently towards women they like vs women they don't. Take a very hot girl for example. Her attractiveness is pretty universal is it not? She doesn't attract JUST hot guys or ugly guys or tall guys or short guys or white guys or black guys. If she is hot she attracts almost all guys.

That is how each man needs to look at his own life. You need to be attractive to females IN GENERAL. It's not a switch you can turn on and off and only turn it on when you talk to the girl you like.

So take the attitude you listed out in the second list and apply it to the girls you like. It'll take some hard mental work, I know....but do it for a month actively and see if you don't get much better results.

[Halo Effect]

Wow this is an old thread but it is very well written. Great honesty and introspection, Leo. I will reply when I'm on a computer in stead of my phone.

[CharlesB]

Unfortunately the forum doesn't have draft option anymore and I lost my previous post,due to a technical problem.
I like what you write in your post.But I think that besides the thought patterns that you recognized ,you shouldn't worry more about it.
In my experience is a type of anxiety similar to the AA.Like Mark said about it ,it's like running,and it can't be totally disappear. And I think it's far more easy to deal with. Because there are plenty of reasons who define the level of comfort with an other person.First of all it's the person you are dealing with.And then the situation.You must already know that in many social situations,you can stay calm and indifferent to a woman, which you consider highly attractive.The reason that this is not mentioned often here in the forum ,is that most people use mostly cold approaches, where the anxiety is already there,independent of other factors.In a more usual social interaction could happen more desirable outcomes,
I think we must everyone accept ,that eventually will experience uncomfortable moments,where we can't fight it.Instead of blaming again ourselves, and over analyzing just move on without further thoughts.If you get sick and you won't be able to go on a trip will you blame yourself about it?No is not self deception ,the opposite would be ,the control of our emotions ,and not recognizing the complexity we have inside.
I don't think,a mental game like trying to treat a beautiful woman,like a normal one,would get you very far.It's exactly the same retro mindset"Oh my god she's so hot I must act aloof" nerdy and destructive.

[baller08]

That's the thing, it's not about pretending to act aloof....you really do treat her like any normal girl...because....she is! The moment you split the difference and let her beauty make you behave differently as you would towards a non beautiful girl you've already in lowered your status and mindframe.

We make it SO damn complicated. A girl is a girl is a girl. No girl is special until she has earned that right in your mind and in your heart. That's not a head game, that's the reality of life. Beauty doesn't determine her character and you can't truly know her character till you've spent time dating her. So there is no need to treat her any different.

Your behavior should be universally attractive to all women, just like women's attraction blankets most men. If you allow beauty to dedicate when you "turn it on" then you don't really understand what it means to truly be an attractive guy.

[Leo]

To be honest I think this situation is solved with and Abundance Mentality (I can find more special and hot girls like her) and practice with girls that I really like, once I see is not a big deal to date girls that I really like and that there are a lot like her the problem should be solved.
Of course desensitization is a big part of the equation. Once I see it's not a big deal to "lose" her, my life goes on and I can open more girls that I like.

[Halo Effect]

I think you're right that an abundance mentality is key. What really made a difference for me was a period where I dated 8 girls in like 10 days. Pretty soon, I would realize quickly with one girl "Hey, I don't like this about this girl". Another girl, I would start asking questions to see if she had anything more going for her other than her looks. I started to test. I became the selector! This happened automatically because I could compare qualities between girls and I knew there was always a next girl after this one.

The thing is, we all like attention, we all like validation, we all like intimacy. When you're seeing just one girl and you're a little desperate and needy, then you can feel the results of that validation and attention and intimacy and conclude that the girl you're seeing is fantastic, while you might feel the same with most other girls. And we may think (subconsciously): "I have all these needs... and this girl is the only one who can fulfill them. I HAVE TO HOLD ON TO HERRR!" This ends when you have abundance of girls.

Dating multiple girls is one key to overcoming the "pedestal" thing. But then there will still be girls who will stand out among the other girls you're dating. Girls who really grasp your attention and make you forget about the other girls... Even though you don't have neediness around "normal" girls, you can then still feel needy around the "special" girls. Ultimately this may simply just require a higher level of abundance mentality: you have to believe that awesome girls like this are also abundant.

One trap to look out for is that you start to become attached not to the girl, but to a fantasized relation and future with the girl. You barely know her, yet you imagine her to be perfect and think you would be happy with her. Imagining a future together is natural and is probably one thing that binds a couple when they're together a long time, but if you do this before the second date... Yeah, you're way ahead of yourself.

That said, assuming you fixed the worst of your neediness, I absolutely do not believe that you should somehow suppress feelings for a girl if you do happen to meet a cool girl. I really do not believe that you should feel bad about great feelings you have about a girl. These feelings are awesome! It's great to hang out with a girl you love! To see this as a bad thing is insanity. The feelings are fine. What's not fine is if you do not act like yourself around her because you're afraid to lose her.

---

So in the last post I said "That said, assuming you fixed the worst of your neediness, I absolutely do not believe that you should somehow suppress feelings for a girl if you do happen to meet a cool girl."

But... suppressing feelings is actually a key component of neediness and Nice Guy Syndrome! What does the desperate, needy guy do? He is not himself. When you put a girl on a pedestal, you are not yourself and you feel uncomfortable and you try to act in a way that you believe she will find attractive, right? You obsess about her and analyse your own behavior again and again, and so on... A needy guy tries to figure out how she wants him to be, and then he does his best to be that.

No matter how amazing a girl is, it's never right to be anything other than who you are around her. But... to be vulnerable requires COURAGE. You need to suck it up and show who you are, no matter how scary it is, because that's the only way she can like and validate and be attracted to who you really are.

In a recent newsletter by David Shade (it's a paid newletter), Lena Voyles had an excellent article about validation seeking, self-esteem and nice guys.

She argues that validation-seeking behavior is a misnomer, because the only people who are truly self-validated are the pathologically narcissistic. Humans want to be validated and humans want to be seen. However, she argues that what the Nice Guy does is not validation-seeking behavior; it's validation-denying behavior. To be truly seen, to feel truly validated, you must let your real self be seen. You must be authentic, vulnerable! Only then can your real self be validated - or rejected. She says: "Anything short of honestly admitting the desire to be genuinely understood is pseudo-self-esteem, at best."

What does the Nice Guy do? He doesn't let his true self be seen, believing it is not good enough. He is not aware of what he truly wants, and he does not express who he really is. This in itself feels emotionally uncomfortable, Lena argues, and furthermore, the Nice Guy craves to have his self validated, while not allowing himself to have it! He craves for his self to be seen and validated, yet he never shows his self to anyone, least of all the girl he cares about!

And I used to believe that a non-needy, confident person who is okay with being vulnerable wouldn't care so much about rejection anymore. But Lena says that the high self-esteem person, when he puts his all into something, when he strives for something with his authentic self, and he fails or is rejected, then he mourns his loss. To say "Well, I didn't want it anyway", or "Whatever, she was just a bitch. Better girls out there!" is ego-soothing behavior. It's the opposite of vulnerability. Lena says:
"High self-esteem people are willing to face the kind of emotional obliteration that low self-esteem people avoid at great cost.
...
He would not rather that it were only “the minor disappointment of defeat” or “just a temporary set-back” – he wants it to be “the agony” of defeat, because he places great value in being intimately acquainted with the sharpness of his desire.
...
It is actually the willingness to suffer pain, rather than some immunity to it, that distinguishes high self-esteem people from co-dependent emotional manipulators, and it is the persistent intimate connection to ones dreams that enables a high self-esteem person to have such courage."

But: "He chooses whose opinion of him he cares about. Validation is not something that someone does to him regardless of his will, but rather an opportunity that he extends to another, with the realization that it is his openness to being validated, his belief that he is “approvable” that really creates this opportunity."

Powerful stuff.


I think that no matter how much you care about a girl, always be authentic. You need to suck it up and be courageous and show vulnerabilty. No over-analysis of what she wants and how you should act - in stead, be in touch with what you truly want and express it. This means you can get rejected for who you are, and it can also mean that she can love you for who you are. Incidentally, being vulnerable and authentic is attractive, while the needy behavior will drive her away. But don't fool yourself and think that courage, authenticity and vulnerability are techniques that you can manipulate her with... They come from within you.

Edit: Now I finally understand why those lines are in posts. It's if you post twice in a row. Sorry for the long post guys.

[Alvar]

Those quotes from Lena's article just made my day. Thanks for posting.

[Halo Effect]

The whole article is gold, but I can't just repost it because that would be illegal, I assume. She also gives advice on David Shade's VIP forum. She is one of the few people who can make me drop my jaw in amazement with her posts regularly.

[Leo]

And of course when you idealize and care so much for ONE woman you have a lot of anxiety, how can you "lose" such a wonderful girl? Geez, it's incredible how my brain can tricks me sometimes. It takes time to actually know a girl, see her flaws and real character. I have to meet her and see what she has to offer, instead of assuming she's wonderful JUST because she's hot. There's another componet to all this, I think I really like the sensation of infatuation, it feels soooooo good that I provoke it myself, it seems I'm addicted to that feeling, I make it happen (fantasizing) instead of waiting to happen (seeing her real character). What a way to shoot myself in the foot.
Thanks for the help guys!

[bwong]

Leo thanks so much for your insight. Funny how it ends up being so ironic.

[Chaos]

Love the part about being an opportunity that you extend to someone else. Not just the meaning, the actual way of saying it is beautiful.

[Alvar]

This image that PM posted the other day in fb fits nicely in this thread:

[CharlesB]

(03-19-2012 12:11 AM)Alvar Wrote:  This image that PM posted the other day in fb fits nicely in this thread:

I am not sure I catch the point of this picture.If it's meaning is like an idealization then I can somehow understand it otherwise ,the tendency is usually that you act more seriously ,to the girls you like,except if you have read some mental masturbation material that tells you that the key to get into her pants is only to act cocky and funny.
I mean really. being like Jim Carrey is more close to your real self usually than acting like a serious stiff person with a costume.This is the way we usually are with our brothers,family,and close friends,even the "serious" bureaucrats with ties.

[SeXyBaCk]

The picture: don draper is a baller, Jim Carey isn't, he's a douche. One's attractive, the other isn't.

As with most things on the forum..this issue is being over-thought, over processed and overrationalised. "How do I not"... the whole mindset is wrong. It's self mutilation. You're standing in front of the mirror telling yourself how you're compulsive and need to stop feeling, need to stop acting needy, need to cut this or that out. You should be asking yourself how do I? How do I drive this girl I'm interested in crazy? How do I make her feel things she hasn't felt before? How do I make myself feel great?

As a general principle though you shouldn't have to be checking yourself around someone you like, definitely not around someone you want to be intimate with. You should be able to just be yourself, unrestricted, right?

Unless someone has repeatedly told you you're acting needy and it's unattractive ... what's the reason for this mental mash-up anyway?

We all want praise, we all want to be liked. Human's are social animals. You can't uncondition yourself completely, and if you suceed, 'grats, you're autistic or a sociopath. If you've driven women off and they explicitly said it's cause you're needy, well then you need to watch yourself and maybe just decide to think before you do and and speak, at least within the beginnings of a new relationship. Do less, say less.

The whole mindset meddling thing... I don't know man. That's just going to create a different problem in another area. You fix one thing by breaking another.

[Mark]

If you haven't seen "Mad Men" or "Dumb and Dumber" then you probably won't get it.

[Traindom]

Oh my goodness, I love that image.