What Actually IS Game?

[James]

Yeah that makes sense.

Charisma arts always emphasized really listening to not only what she's saying but the emotion behind it. If you really notice how she's feeling and what she's saying, then you could decide what is the best route to take.

For example: if she seems shy, then teasing and busting on her might not be the best option. If she's really high energy etc then asking her really personal stuff might not be best.

So like your basketball analogy, use the best tool for each moment. So to me that means, really good listening skills to her words/emotions/body language and then decide what you want to do from there.

On the other hand, putting in so much effort to get a girl seems like it's putting her on a pedestal. Mark often says to just do what you want and I think that attitude is attractive and non needy. Kinda sounds like technique vs outlook/behaviour

[baller08]

Well, you may look at it as so much effort, to me it's just living and a part of my life. To me its no different than putting in effort towards my work, my hobbies, or my relationships with friends and family.

And the "do what you want" advice is not used in proper context to this conversation. This is about experience and knowing how to relate to people and situations appropriately. This is a perfect example of good advice (do what you want) and applying it incorrectly (in a topic of social calibration).

[James]

Well it depends. Do you actually want to talk to the girl? Do you want to talk about what she's talking about? Do you actually want to push pull on her? Are you doing it to impress friends etc.

If you do what you want which is something really weird then I agree with you.

Anyway, I think that gives me more insight. I guess if someone still asked me how I would "game" someone, I would just go direct and/or talk to them normally. Nothing fancy.

[baller08]

(05-03-2012 08:55 PM)James Wrote:  I guess if someone still asked me how I would "game" someone, I would just go direct and/or talk to them normally. Nothing fancy.

And after 2 pages...all I have to say is:

(04-30-2012 07:41 PM)baller08 Wrote:  If you're happy with the quality and/or quantity of women in your life and you can have good sexual and emotional connections with women on a consistent basis, then what does it matter?

[Jack Sparrow]

Like Mark said earlier - the best GAME varies between people based on their unique characteristic.

- One of my friend he only make one approach a night, but he has a remarkable ability to sniff out which girl is available or into him. With that one approach he almost always get a date or get laid.

- My other friend is tiny, about 5'4". He goes around befriending girls so he is like one of their friends. He goes to the same club every week, so essentially he become one of the girls. But when the time is right he will make his move to score one of the chicks within the group.

- I have another friend who is super witty, high energy, and into his own world. He's always making out with girls and trying to pull them. He doesn't care what people thinks.

- One guy I met in the community is also only like 5'3". He has a squeaky voice like a girl. He never goes to clubs. Maybe he feels insecure, maybe he literally cannot see over other people. He does most mystery indirect game during the day, and he is the best I've ever seen. Maybe her realize at his size and with a girly voice, going direct on girls may not work so well.


You seem to mention the "opening" part of the game a lot. Getting girl is should be assessed on a bigger picture than how good you are at getting girls to talk to you. A guy who literally has gotten laid by 1000 different woman in his life may not look that good in a club. Look at Zan Perrion. He said if you look at him in a club, you'll see him get rejected all the time. But overall he has slept with hundreds of the most beautiful women including models and celebrities. Another guy who can get all the girls into conversation and look like he's the life of the party may in fact not be that good with women.


It's a much bigger question - WHAT IS GAME?

Like Baller said. The answer is more like - what does it take to consistently date and and sex with the type of women I am attracted to?

And the answer to that answer is what Mark said - it varies between individuals based on their strength and weakness and circumstances.

[Mace]

Game is the application of tactics to attract women beyond your perceived value.

[SeXyBaCk]

(05-04-2012 05:14 AM)Mace Wrote:  Game is the application of tactics to attract women beyond your perceived value.

This doesn't sit well with me... not sure yet what I don't like about it exactly, need to give it some thought.

[Halo Effect]

(05-04-2012 08:56 AM)SeXyBaCk Wrote:  

(05-04-2012 05:14 AM)Mace Wrote:  Game is the application of tactics to attract women beyond your perceived value.

This doesn't sit well with me... not sure yet what I don't like about it exactly, need to give it some thought.

Agreed. I think it's rooted in the original PUA attitude of "I can't attract women by being myself, so I have to devise and use tactics to appear more attractive than I am."

[Tim]

Yup. The word tactics sets me off. Implies planning a strategy, trying to 'win' something, and taking a specific line out of a book.

[crazyhorse]

Mace, if you don't posses a lot of value (for the sake of the word), you won't get away with faking it for a long time.

[Mace]

crazyhorse, I possess a lot of value. But all of it is useless without game - this is why I make a distinction between "value" and "perceived value."

We all know tall, rich, good looking white guys who are miserable failures with the ladies. What's the culprit? No game.

Ever tell jokes to make a girl laugh? That's a tactic.

Ever tell an impressive story to win over a girl? That's a tactic

Ever tease and flirt? That's a tactic.

Ever use psychological ploys to mindfuck girls - like waiting a few days to call or not texting back too soon to appear coy and aloof and not overeager? These are all tactics.

You can have a lot of perceived value and still fail with women if you have no game. An example is Mark before he discovered the community - tall good looking young white guy (lots of perceived value) who was a flop with women (bad game).

You can also not have a lot of "perceived value" and score with women above your "perceived value" with good game. An example is baller08 - short, below average looking older Asian guy (no perceived value) who's very successful with women (good game).

Ever see short, busted Asian dudes without a whole of money walking around with blonde dime pieces? You can be assured that dude has tight game!

[crazyhorse]

(05-04-2012 03:56 PM)Mace Wrote:  crazyhorse, I possess a lot of value. But all of it is useless without game - this is why I make a distinction between "value" and "perceived value."

We all know tall, rich, good looking white guys who are miserable failures with the ladies. What's the culprit? No game.

Ever tell jokes to make a girl laugh? That's a tactic.

Ever tell an impressive story to win over a girl? That's a tactic

Ever tease and flirt? That's a tactic.

Ever use psychological ploys to mindfuck girls - like waiting a few days to call or not texting back too soon to appear coy and aloof and not overeager? These are all tactics.

You can have a lot of perceived value and still fail with women if you have no game. An example is Mark before he discovered the community - tall good looking young white guy (lots of perceived value) who was a flop with women (bad game).

You can also not have a lot of "perceived value" and score with women above your "perceived value" with good game. An example is baller08 - short, below average looking older Asian guy (no perceived value) who's very successful with women (good game).

Ever see short, busted Asian dudes without a whole of money walking around with blonde dime pieces? You can be assured that dude has tight game!

With all respect for Baller. But I won't make assumptions about being great with women before I've met the guy in person. That's just me being critical.

Game for me is usually just being able to express yourself (communicating well) and being able to go after what you want (being in control of your fear). That's really it. It's usually here were guys bump into their limits although they are still practicing game.

off topic: Weren't you one of those dudes who was in awe of Justin Wayne on Sleazy's blog? You should really reconsider you stance on game buddy. That guy is doing nothing special.

[Bulgakov]

(05-04-2012 03:56 PM)Mace Wrote:  crazyhorse, I possess a lot of value. But all of it is useless without game - this is why I make a distinction between "value" and "perceived value."

We all know tall, rich, good looking white guys who are miserable failures with the ladies. What's the culprit? No game.

Ever tell jokes to make a girl laugh? That's a tactic.

Ever tell an impressive story to win over a girl? That's a tactic

Ever tease and flirt? That's a tactic.

Ever use psychological ploys to mindfuck girls - like waiting a few days to call or not texting back too soon to appear coy and aloof and not overeager? These are all tactics.

You can have a lot of perceived value and still fail with women if you have no game. An example is Mark before he discovered the community - tall good looking young white guy (lots of perceived value) who was a flop with women (bad game).

You can also not have a lot of "perceived value" and score with women above your "perceived value" with good game. An example is baller08 - short, below average looking older Asian guy (no perceived value) who's very successful with women (good game).

Ever see short, busted Asian dudes without a whole of money walking around with blonde dime pieces? You can be assured that dude has tight game!

while i disagree that telling a joke or teasing is something 'tactical' - it's simply demonstrating personality - there are basic moves you can make that improve your chances with women you want to attract - probably more centred on social awareness than tactics. an understanding of how people will likely respond to the things you do or don't do are key.

here's a few examples:

- girl in library. don't go direct because it's a quiet place, she doesn't know who you are and you can't simply start chatting away. it wouldn't work. recognising that this is the case, sit somewhere nearby. make a connection first with a passing comment, catch her on her break outside where it's just the two of you and build a connection. if all goes well, invite her out on a date.

- girls sitting down in a group. you want to sit at a nearby table and casually work your way into the group. if it's obvious you just want to hit on the hot girl it's a bad look and the group will reject you before anyone even gets to know you. so you make friends with everyone else, scope out the dynamics between members, then go for the girl.

- girl is on a tram. if you want to chat her up, you'd better find out when her tram stop is in the opening few seconds otherwise you have no idea when your conversation will come to an end and won't pace things well.

it's not really formulaic. just based on experience of what works and what doesn't.

PS. also love that part in wedding crashers when owen wilson is walking along the beach and sits down. she does too. up until then they had simmering, unreleased tension between them but from this point things get intimate. classic beach move.

[playmaker001]

@crazyhorse: I just looked up Justin Wayne for the first time yesterday. Yes, it's true that if you have game already, his style might not impress you that much. But, as far as being a pickup coach, he's doing something special because he's got the most proof of him getting laid out of any pickup coach I've ever saw. Gives students confidence in his ability. Stop hating, what more do you want out of a guy doing cold approach. He's also not very good looking, I hate the way he dresses, and he has a speech impediment. When's the last time you got laid crazyhorse

[crazyhorse]

(05-04-2012 07:43 PM)playmaker001 Wrote:  @crazyhorse: I just looked up Justin Wayne for the first time yesterday. Yes, it's true that if you have game already, his style might not impress you that much. But, as far as being a pickup coach, he's doing something special because he's got the most proof of him getting laid out of any pickup coach I've ever saw. Gives students confidence in his ability. Stop hating, what more do you want out of a guy doing cold approach. He's also not very good looking, I hate the way he dresses, and he has a speech impediment. When's the last time you got laid crazyhorse

That's not what I ment.

I was referring to the entire "play out of your league" thing.

[Mace]

(05-04-2012 08:45 PM)crazyhorse Wrote:  

(05-04-2012 07:43 PM)playmaker001 Wrote:  @crazyhorse: I just looked up Justin Wayne for the first time yesterday. Yes, it's true that if you have game already, his style might not impress you that much. But, as far as being a pickup coach, he's doing something special because he's got the most proof of him getting laid out of any pickup coach I've ever saw. Gives students confidence in his ability. Stop hating, what more do you want out of a guy doing cold approach. He's also not very good looking, I hate the way he dresses, and he has a speech impediment. When's the last time you got laid crazyhorse

That's not what I ment.

I was referring to the entire "play out of your league" thing.

Justin Wayne is short, black, and of disadvantaged economic status.

Justin Wayne regularly has sex with attractive middle-class and upper middle-class women whom he meets on the streets of NYC.

Justin Wayne has proof of his lays.

Moreover, he's proof that game tactics can be used to score with women outside of one's perceived value.

Why the hate?

[Jon]

Of disadvangaged economic status? Do you know the guy?

---

Also, being black may be polarizing, but in NYC it actually is an advantage with a fair number of women.

[Mace]

(05-04-2012 08:56 PM)Jon Wrote:  Of disadvangaged economic status? Do you know the guy?

---

Also, being black may be polarizing, but in NYC it actually is an advantage with a fair number of women.

He's an immigrant kid from the Caribbean who grew up in the ghetto. He's written about his background.

http://justinwayneblog.com/2012/02/10/fa...ttraction/

"Think about it. I am a black man of caribbean descent. Assuming that I grew up around black-caribbean women, it would be easier for me to feel more comfortable around a NEW black girl as opposed to if ( everything else equal ) I met a NEW white girl who I have less in common with. I will feel more comfortable with what I am familiar with. This will make the process easier for me to deal with.

...If you notice some of my ‘infield videos’. I usually have a social vibe in the beginning. Some guys who are really insecure with their manhood would say “he seems like he is being too friendly, or he is not being agressive enough, or he seems to shakey”. Here is the truth. The way I engage some of the girls outside my race are in a certain way to what they are familiar with. If I actually spoke to them like my GANGSTER cousins in Brooklyn New York. They will NOT look at me as alpha, they will simply be creeped out. THEY are NOT FAMILIAR with that kind of behavior. I know this because I used to be very agressive and loved to fight in my younger days. I used to be in the wrong company when I was in my teens and I temporarily dropped out of school due to gang wars. It was serious. I hung out with real guys in the streets and they get women from their reputation, not because they are aggressive in general."

The guy has a very keen understanding of female psychology and social dynamics. It's why he's able to score with women attractive girls despite his lower perceived value.

[crazyhorse]

I'm not hating, I just don't like the "you can play out of your league" type of thinking.

Here's the logic behind these arguments: guys see a short or unattractive guy with a georgous girl. They think that she's out of his league, therefore they assume that he got her through game. What you guys fail to notice is that she could have been attracted to him and that she didn't thought he was too short for her or too ugly.

You don't date out of your league, it's simply not possible.

Also be a bit critical here. Justin Wayne post the pictures of these girls on his websites. He has been updating his website from 2010-2012. There will probably be A LOT of girls who arn't mentioned on that website.

I just don't like worshipping people through the internet that I havn't met in real life.

by no means do I want to derail this thread, since I hope it won't get out of hand.

---

sorry for the messy post it's a bit late here....

[playmaker001]

@crazyhorse: Then i agree with you. Though i catch my friends and I saying "he's out of her league" sometimes when we see a lame guy with a hot girl. We say things like "what is she thinking" and "I bet he's not fucking her right". Lol Maybe because I'm a bit cocky but girls have traded up for me at parties before, so there must be some truth in it.

[Mark]

I covered this last year here: http://postmasculine.com/shes-out-of-your-league

[James]

I guess, to keep it simple, I should have just asked this on the first post:

What has worked best for you in these scenarios? (I know that all of us look/dress/talk/behave differently but I'm just curious.
Also, I want to hear from people who have actual success - ending up dating or sleeping with a girl from a cold approach.)

Girl sitting by herself during the day (in a mall, park bench etc)

Girl walking by herself during the day

Girl with a friend or 2 during the day

Girl with a group of friends in a club

One of my long term relationships a few years ago was when I drunkenly asked a girl for directions on the street and talked for a bit then got her number. I thought it was for sure gonna be a flake but there you go.

Another, asked a girl what she was reading on the bus

Then a bunch of direct approaches in clubs/bars

Then of course, the easier ways...through social circles/status or girls opening me.

[FirstAidKit]

(05-04-2012 09:24 PM)playmaker001 Wrote:  @crazyhorse: Then i agree with you. Though i catch my friends and I saying "he's out of her league" sometimes when we see a lame guy with a hot girl. We say things like "what is she thinking" and "I bet he's not fucking her right". Lol Maybe because I'm a bit cocky but girls have traded up for me at parties before, so there must be some truth in it.

Haha, you'd be surprised.... a friend of mine who regularly has up to 4 cute girls in rotation (and is honest and upfront about it) is ,objectively, kinda weird looking. Also pretty short and skinny. He's also supposedly so good in bed that most of the new girls he gets with heard about it through word of mouth from a previous one, and it was a major factor in their decision to hook up with him.

The only reason I haven't is because my ex girlfriend is currently in his rotation and I also have a crush on his housemate.

[playmaker001]

@FAK: I almost threw up in my mouth. Haha I doubt it; and even if he is that good in bed, he is no where near as good as me or as hung as me so I can talk the talk and walk the walk

[FirstAidKit]

The guy himself has never brought it up - I heard from other girls . And I'm not doubting your skills, just remember that hot guys don't have the monopoly on good sex.