What Actually IS Game?

[James]

I've basically followed the pickup industry since 2005 and unfortunately got a lot of those thoughts and theories stuck in my head along the way.

I got some girlfriends along the way, had successes, but never really with any pick up concepts. I never did the whole routine thing cuz it felt weird to me.

This past year has been the best year for me in terms of dating. Basically once I realized that a lot of the pick up industry is a scam and that the whole thing is a numbers game is when things got way better.

So, if it's just a numbers game and the girl is either into you or not right off the bat, then what is game? The last 2 girls I've dated were when I did a totally direct approach and they were into my physically. The girl before that approached me.

So basically other than direct approach and normal conversation, at this point, I don't know what game is. Is it just concepts and behaviour: being social, non needy, friendly, interesting etc

I was out last night and saw some hot girls in a place full of guys. I was thinking, what the hell would Mystery or Tyler do here? Pull her away from a group of guys? I often think that those guys would be nothing special if I watched them.

Anyway, just some rambling thoughts. Would be interested in your opinions.

[baller08]

Quote:I was out last night and saw some hot girls in a place full of guys. I was thinking, what the hell would Mystery or Tyler do here? Pull her away from a group of guys?

Yes. I've done it many, many times when the situation calls for it. Just because you can't or don't know how, don't automatically awesome it's impossible.

But that's completely beside the point. If you're happy with the quality and/or quantity of women in your life and you can have good sexual and emotional connections with women on a consistent basis, then what does it matter?

If you see a woman you find attractive and can go up and strike up a conversation with her and consistently get dates, sex or a relationship, then what does it matter?

Why do you care if the pick up industry is a scam or what game is or isn't? Let's say Mystery and Tyler can blow in and steal any girl right from under your nose or let's say they're a complete sham....what difference is it to you if you're happy with your results?

That would be like me being able to consistently score the ball in any basketball court I walk onto, then go to basketball camps and say, "What's all this nonsense and drills you guys are doing? Just drive around your opponent, rise up and score!"

If I'm happy with my offense output, why do I care what anyone else does?

If you're happy with your results, then focus your energy on other parts of your life that will fulfill you as a man and a well rounded person.

[James]

I hear you.

Why I am interested? Because it's a big industry that can mess people up and over complicate things. I guess because I've kinda been through it, it upsets me to know that it's much more simple than I thought.

Also, like I said earlier, all I've done now is basically just hit on girls (or go direct) and show that I'm into them and it's worked. Hmm I guess I'm thinking partly, what if I run into a dry spell in the future? Do I even know how to "game" ? Is it really all these tools: push pull, story tell, cold read etc or is it just talking normally to a girl?

I'm really motivated when it comes to developing and building up skills..even really hard ones. But with game, it never seemed like a clear process or something that could be measured.

I totally think cold approach can work (that's how I've had the past 3 long term relationships) but it's probably much better to have a life where your career, hobbies, etc puts you in contact with the girls you want.

So, to you, what is game? Do you actually feel that you have tools and "strategies" or are you just going for it over and over till you get a girl?

Since every girl will react differently, how do you know if you're on the right track. My thoughts are all over the place on this topic.

[playmaker001]

Game= knowing how to authentically advertise your best self.

[SeXyBaCk]

Game is what is sold to you on poorly designed websites that feature random pictures of attractive girls, usually with the secretary look (where do they steal these pictures?) and run by guys whose alias' are made up of an adjective/verb and something that sounds italian. Makes sense don't it?

Sarcasm aside... you do realise pickup targets the socially akward and emotionally immature right? I'm not trying to offend anyone here, but that is the reality of it. It never ceases to surprise me how some guys find it easier to absorb phoney (reverse) psychology advice and routines over emotional and lifestyle concepts such as just "tone it down, but be a sexual being, make her laugh, be sociable, get your shit together". If it's not structured on a power point slide (do a then b then c), the guys don't seem to be able to reproduce/comprehend/implement it.

That however does relate to who is doing pickup: It's mostly somewhat nerdy guys who have an ambition to excel in academics, hence this drive to master some arcane skill in seducing women and competition is ever present. I'm sure it has turned obsessive for some. Hell, you can read books on it, so it's academical, so give me more! I find it interesting, I've learnt more about men's brains and way of thinking dabbling and reading some pick up material than I did doing an internship in psychiatry.

As Baller says, you have to feel into yourself to figure what you want and where you're going. And then do it. If you have an underlying feeling to chase tail, go do it.

James, I believe you feel exactly what game is, and you've got some, but a part of you wants to be better at it, or better than others at least.

[playmaker001]

OH and calibration's terribly important as well

[baller08]

It's Social IQ. You can't teach it, a person has to experience it by being out with people, women, by being social.

Read some studies on people who live alone and how weird they eventually get. There was one study that came out recently about that and it listed things that people do that you probably can't even dreamed up if you tried.

Social isolation does the same thing to people. So we call it "calibration" but it's just really being socially aware.

[James]

That just sounds like being a normal cool guy and just talking to girls normally and showing interest in them.

So aside from that which is just common sense, everything people like Mystery and Tyler teach etc is a scam?

[baller08]

(05-01-2012 09:11 PM)James Wrote:  That just sounds like being a normal cool guy and just talking to girls normally and showing interest in them.

So aside from that which is just common sense, everything people like Mystery and Tyler teach etc is a scam?

Nope. I don't think anything is useless, I've said this several times here before. It's just about WHEN you use it. Being a "normal cool guy" and "just talking to girls" is what men are SUPPOSED to be able to do. We know that's not true today. If you can do this, then as I said to you originally, don't worry about any of this.

That is the goal but just like someone who has completely broken both of his legs and his back, just telling him to "Just get up and go run" is much easier said than done. There are many, many men today and here on this forum that have 2 broken legs and a broken back.

There is a much bigger picture here that you're trying to grasp other than just picking up women. Anytime there is a large pain, there will always be a revolt. This is why most dictatorships eventually gets overthrown.

The feminist movement was women's response to their lack of power and feeling worthless. Same with the Civil Rights Movement for blacks. The Gay movement for homosexuals. The whole pick up industry is the similar response for men who have felt bashed, powerless and worthless thanks to decades of political correctness and feminist dogma. (Mark wrote a terrific article on feminism HERE.)

Like any movement, for every Martin Luthor King, Jr there is a Black Panther. But the ugly truth is, that is a necessary balance in cases of great change.

This is why I don't get into or respect people slamming Mystery, Style and the guys who have put a lot of time into this. Mark and others like him are coming around to a more balanced approach, but they are able to do so because of the path that was set by men before them.

I'm always respectful of men who have come before me in anything that I do because even the great men today stood on the shoulders of giants. Kobe stood on Jordan who stood on Magic who stood on Wilt and so forth.

So to answer your question...no, they're not a scam. They did what they had to do because the men they worked with needed the type of help that never needed to exist before. They didn't have a template to follow. In fact, the last 40 years probably had more weak men than this planet had ever seen.

Huge problems sometimes require imperfect solutions so that the landscape can balance out. Once the landscape balances, men have the luxury of looking at what works and what didn't and make it better. That is currently what is happening now.

My best advice, James, is to learn from everyone. No tool or technique is useless. It's up to you to find out how to use it appropriately.

[Jon]

(05-01-2012 09:11 PM)James Wrote:  That just sounds like being a normal cool guy and just talking to girls normally and showing interest in them.

So aside from that which is just common sense, everything people like Mystery and Tyler teach etc is a scam?

Well, Mystery and Tyler teach very different things.

As for Mystery.

To be fair, he says if you go out four or five nights a week, and practice his system precisely, then after a couple of years you can regularly pick up the hottest girl in the club. Though I have met people who try mystery method, I have not met anyone who practiced it faithfully for two years. Maybe it would work, I have no idea. But, to be fair to Mystery, it's not like he pretends you can get overnight success.

Tyler:

occasional great insights amidst mounds of bullshit.

[Jack Sparrow]

I am one of the few Mystery defenders left in this community. I am also one of the few people who took workshop with him before he got a big head and went crazy!

Remember, Mystery is a magician, an illusionist. Yes, when I went out with Mystery on these workshops he DOES get the hottest girl in the club. Or at least the illusion of him getting the hottest girl. At the end of both nights he was locked in with some mega hottie. He is a magician. He plays the club like a comedian plays the audience. He's seen it all, and he can elicit predictable response out of people.

You can call it GAME or illusion or whatever, but that's not what 99% of guys need.

Most guys just need to be comfortable with women, learn to be a man, improve themselves.

In retrospect I wish I have never heard of Mystery Method. But in his defense, he said MM is for getting 10s not just to get laid. Most of the newbies who joined the community was not ready for MM. But either way, MM is not healthy. The idea of shooting for a 10 is very ego driven. It's like wanting the biggest house on the block. If that's what you want fine, but feeding that idea to a bunch of gullible, desperate men really lead many guys down the wrong path.

I've seen Tyler in field too. Very, very average game. All he does is approach a lot, make strong eye contact, and aggressively physically escalate. I am sure he does alright, but nothing really to learn from him.

[Jon]

ok I seriously question te whole "I only go for 10s thing." I have seen photos of katya. Attractive, sure. But...

[CharlesB]

(05-02-2012 04:20 AM)Jon Wrote:  ok I seriously question te whole "I only go for 10s thing." I have seen photos of katya. Attractive, sure. But...

I think physical attractiveness has an end-point , and from this point you can't compare it anymore.
There's not a totally beautiful woman. Some women you may find them hot , but they make you feel beeing sexual and not to connect with them , others are sweet and beautiful but no so hot ,others with a very pretty face ,but not either so hot , or not with that sense of commonality .
I am talking about what they inspire by their appearance.

[SeXyBaCk]

Woah, this 10 scale thing... is still going strong huh? It'll never go away I suppose. There are just too many creepy guys out there staring at women just for a little too long. Over-analysing a womans physical appearance is harmful to your game in my view. You're either going to put her on a pedestal right from the off or you're clogging up your brain trying too hard to get with her or worrying about your chances or if she's hot enough for you. It's just going to confuse or distract you. For me there are exactly two categories: I am attracted to her or I'm not attracted to her PHYSICALLY. If you can't figure that out ... ask yourself ... would you enjoy standing really close to this person, or do you want to smell them? Yes/no? Simples. It's all you need to know before smiling and making eye contact.

This whole 1-10 scaling is the mentality of lanky, pimply teenagers hanging around town staring at older fully developed girls and cooeing under their breath. Yeah, we all did that ("she's an 8, 8 camels!"). Masculine? Not so. I'll leave that to awkward grown up men who spend too much time looking/reading field reports (don't ask me which is sadder) and not enough time living.

Beyond all that, physical attractiveness only really rules supreme in the first 2 minutes of meeting someone. I've come across a few very physically attractive women, who upon opening their mouth and displaying an entire lack of humor became unattractive right away. Maybe they blew me out good too, amounts much to the same. Equally I've talked to women with maybe not the best skin, figure or style and they turn out to be very sexy indeed. Women can also actually become hotter when you make them happy, give them a reason to doll up/encourage them. Sexiness/sex appeal are not the same as good looks. They feed off each other but they're not one and the same thing. Sex appeal is an aura, a state of mind, attitude, lifestyle, presence (and more)... it can't really be reproduced on camera/film/a mirror. If you feel it does, you're too influenced by gloosy media/photoshop/porn.

[CharlesB]

I was speaking about what emotions the physical attractiveness can inspire on someone before you talk ,have a connection or meet the woman.
And these are the categories I personally ( and unconsciously ) put the physically attractive women I see , even now that I am in a relationship .
I agree that when you actually meet this person the impression could be change a lot !
Also until this conversation I had completely forgot the 10 scale , now it doesn't even make any sense for me .

[Jon]

On the 10 scale.

I think the whole 1 to 10 scale is ridiculous. That said, there is a group of women who are so widely considered to be "really hot" that absurd things happen to them - like that they get asked to work as models or actresses while hanging out at the mall, by actual agents for major agencies, not creepy dudes. They not only can enter any club on the planet at any time of night, they will not wait in line. This is an actual phenomenon. I know this Dutch girl who has two friends in town and she said "we want to go clubbing, where should we go." I mentioned a particular place but said that the door is quite tough and she responded with "we don't have door problems." She was right. She wasn't even trying to be arrogant, she was just correct. That's what 30 rock called "the bubble." There are actual bubble girls, and we all, guy, girl, gay, straight, can spot one by looking. She might not even be the girl you find the most attractive personally, but it's a thing. That said:

the idea of refusing to hook up with girls who, though attractive, are not bubble girls is, to me, ridiculous. It actually sounds like a great rationalization for not getting laid. Like your friend goes home with a cute girl and you say "well I only hook up with 10s." Ok.

And in addition, if by "10" you do mean bubble girl, all I am saying is that mystery does not just pursue bubble girls. I have met women who have been hit on by Mystery, they are definitely all attractive, but sorry, not all bubble girls.

Funny story about girls who are "in the bubble." I once met this girl at a party, 6 feet tall, amazing body, dark brown hair and bright green eyes. One of the most striking women I have ever seen, and a total geek. Her boyfriend was a physics ph.d. She was a medieval history ph.d student. She had just come from a comic book store earlier in the day, and asked me if I knew of any D&D games she could join in the city, since she just moved here. She made clear, however, that she did NOT larp, because that's just a geek bridge too far. It came up that she has worked as a model in milan. I said "you don't exactly seem like the modelling type, personality and interests wise." Her response was "well I know but I met this guy who was an agent, he turned out to be legit, and he offered me a job in Milan for 3 months. Who am I to turn down a well paying summer job in Milan?"

Anyway, I don't think the 10 scale is helpful, or that the above has all that much relevance to meeting women, but it is a real phenomenon that some girls are just so hot that it's like they have a magical power to make things happen.

[baller08]

I agree with Jon. You have to be blind to not see that certain people have the ability to do things easier than most. It doesn't mean they don't have insecurities or problems because they always do but the world is ran by 3 powers: sex, money, and influence.

Sex is looks, body or sexuality like what Jon mentioned. Money of course is money but also power. If you have one you can get the other. In our world women usually possess the former and men the latter.

If you have influence you can usually get both. This is how a lot of con men can swindle millionaires. This is why some men without a dime to their name can get tons of beautiful women.

Influence is understanding how people and the world works and the experience, insight, and social IQ on how to move through life. It's connecting with people at a level most can't.

Unless you are stacked highly in 1 of those areas, it's best to have a balance of all 3.

This is of course a very basic simplified breakdown of it but if you look around the world power is broken down into these 3 areas.

[Chaos]

Am I the only one here that LOVES the concept and word of GAME?

For me GAME is just the perfect metaphor... it invokes feelings of playfulness, fun, having her bait the hook and you biting on her "shit tests" ... and all while the both of you know exactly what's going on with a little touch of uncertainty about the final results or where it's really going. I find the word to be a PERFECT definition for dating.

[Mace]

IMO this goes back to the classic "tactics vs. value" dichotomy of game.

Examples of value to women:
- Fame
- Money
- Height
- Looks
- Stereotype/Archetype
- Relative social value

Examples of tactics used on women:
- Good energy
- Social competence
- Flirtation
- Charm
- Push-pull
- Psychological tricks/routines (ie. Mystery Method)

Guys who have lots of "perceived value" don't require as much "game tactics" to score with women. Guys who lack perceived value need far more game tactics to yield the same results.

[Jon]

I would question whether energy, social competence, and charm are tactics. But yes, to the extent you don't "look good on paper" you have to work the charm a bit more.

[Halo Effect]

(05-02-2012 02:47 PM)Chaos Wrote:  Am I the only one here that LOVES the concept and word of GAME?

For me GAME is just the perfect metaphor... it invokes feelings of playfulness, fun, having her bait the hook and you biting on her "shit tests" ... and all while the both of you know exactly what's going on with a little touch of uncertainty about the final results or where it's really going. I find the word to be a PERFECT definition for dating.

I don't like the metaphor that much. Maybe because I'm just bad at "game". I do like teasing and messing around and making her qualify herself and such. But my friends love the game playing, teasing, push-pull, jumping through hoops, basically battling to get her. In essence: indirect communication, where you both know you want each other but it's never said, and she's playing hard to get all the time. I don't like that.

Personally, I love honest girls that I connect with and we don't play many games. There is flirting, teasing and so on, but the emphasis is more on getting to know each other and there's a natural sexual attraction and a growing emotional connection (sharing real stuff about yourselves).

Maybe it's a preference thing, or maybe I still have much to learn. But with my current beliefs and behavior, I do attract girls who are very honest and direct as well, who don't play games and who I have fun relationships with.

[Jon]

I'll also point out that the term "game" isn't a term invented or exclusive to PUAs. Normal people use it all the time. I saw Lena Dunham on a late night show saying she has lousy text game - by which she meant that she tries to send flirty texts but they just come off weird and awkward.

[James]

Interesting views. It seems like it's getting really deep into the definition of game..

Maybe I phrased it badly but basically what I was asking was, what is the "best" way to game.

For example: you're in a bar/club and there's a girl you're into talking to some friends on the dance floor.

Do you go direct, do an opinion opener, neg/tease her, push pull etc?

I went through the whole Juggler, Charisma Arts thing which is all about situational openers and really listening/reacting to her and improvising on any subject/emotion. But I guess a mix of not wanting to talk about random things and just wanting to get to the point, I liked the idea of just going direct and showing my interest in her. That's what I've done most recently and has worked well.

I guess my question is, how do you ever know which is the best "tactic"? What if she shut you down when you went direct but she would have liked you if you did a situational and got to know her or vice versa?

[Mark]

The best way to "game" is going to vary from person to person, based on your looks, age, personality, interests, goals, social connections, social environment, strengths/weaknesses, etc.

Very broad question and hard to answer without getting to know you well.

As for what is "game" in general, I define it in my book as the ability to elicit positive sexual responses from women.

[baller08]

James - your question then becomes like what most guys ask, "What is the BEST way and just tell me so I can get on with it".

Mark pinned a thread this morning expressing his frustration that most men claim to have read his book and then promptly comes on here to ask questions that he has answered by page 25. This isn't specific to his book, it happens to every guy who has taught this because most guys are lazy. They just want the magic pill. They may read a blog or Models or No Mr. Nice Guy but the direction in there takes too much work...."just tell me what the best fucking tactic is!"

So James, if you really want to know what the BEST game is...I'll tell you....it's experience.

In the NBA, what is game? Jordan and Kobe's game will be different than Wilt or Duncan. Chris Paul and a John Stockton's game will be different than Chris Mullin and Reggie Miller.

But the guys who really dominate are the ones who try to be as proficient in as many areas of the game of basketball as they can. They study and play the game and they do it long enough to gain experience. This way, depending on the type of defense and flow of the game, they have the experience to know when to either take over a game or to be a playmaker for their team.

Technique and talent is only as useful as the person using it. Dominique Wilkins had just as much raw talent as Michael Jordan. Most people don't know who Dominique Wilkins is.

There is no such thing as a useless technique or tool....it's just your experience on when and how it's used that matters. If a guy doesn't know how to properly use the technique then it'll seem like it's useless, but the reality is, the technique is perfectly fine, it's just the guy lacks the experience to know how to use it.