Update on my dating situation

[baller08]

(03-30-2012 05:12 PM)Mark Wrote:  Yes, there are universal behaviors (laughing, smiling, crying, etc.) when the behavior is simple. But once behaviors become more complicated, they play out over a bell curve. For instance, attraction. The majority of women may be attracted to men who behave in a dominant manner, but that doesn't mean they all do. And it certainly doesn't mean it's "hard wired" into women or that it's "human nature" like a lot of PUA's would tell you.

Nice guys deal in the minority...that's why they waste so much time. Example: "Just because the majority of women will make time for a guy she is attracted to doesn't mean that this girl isn't attracted to me even though she's not really making an effort...she COULD be in the minority who doesn't respond that way when she likes a guy."

True? Yeah, could be. But would you run your life that way? The entire premise of your book is based on what I'm talking about. Why does "vulnerability" work? Does it work for ALL women? No...but under the right mindset and intention it works the great majority of the time and it creates high levels of attraction, bonding, and closeness. Why does it work? Because it just is....it's in our human nature, especially for the high majority of women.

Forget PUA's...that's just a different packaging gone over the deep end...long before the stupid hats and earrings, humans have been observing consistencies to understand their world. Nothing is ever 100% on our planet...there are always anomalies. But when it comes to dating a lot of guys waste a lot of time hoping their situation is an anomaly and 99% of the time it isn't.

[Mark]

Quote:But when it comes to dating a lot of guys waste a lot of time hoping their situation is an anomaly and 99% of the time it isn't.

I would agree with that. And behaviors such as "She doesn't call you back," yeah, that's less about genetics and more about "Do I want to date someone who thinks it's OK to not call me back."

The evolutionary stuff Matty and I mentioned was not in regards to this thread, it was a tangent.

[baller08]

(03-30-2012 05:55 PM)Mark Wrote:  I would agree with that. And behaviors such as "She doesn't call you back," yeah, that's less about genetics and more about "Do I want to date someone who thinks it's OK to not call me back."

The evolutionary stuff Matty and I mentioned was not in regards to this thread, it was a tangent.

She's not being "rude" per se. If she was really mean to a waiter or something then I think your standard applies, as in, "Do I want to date someone who is so quick to be rude to a stranger?"

She not calling back or not calling is not her being rude, it's her way of displaying a behavior/hint that says "I'm not interested". Often times men will tell me, "She's such a cold bitch!" and I tell them, "Chances are she's only a cold bitch to you...I assure you chances are she's warm, sweet, and loving to another guy because she is attracted to him and wants to be in a relationship with him, respects him, etc." Again one set of behavior equals non-interest, another set equals interest. Nothing complicated here, pretty basic common sense stuff.

The whole reason for this tangent was the original question from Creatine was "Do these behaviors indicate a lost of interest?" then some guys came in and said, "Well we don't know for sure because everyone is different so go ask her" and so on and so forth.

I know that my relationships got a whole lot more healthy, sane, and stable once I started to quickly weed out the girls who displayed behaviors that indicate dis-interest....or as you would call Non Receptive. Is it POSSIBLE that I weeded out a girl or two that was interested? Sure it's possible. But the amount of women that I was able to find that WERE interested and displayed behaviors that backed that up far outweighs any anomaly to make me regret it.

I think it's important that guys learn that instead of the nebulous "everyone is different and unique" mantra. It's misplaced and often mis-used as an excuse to continue to pursue a woman when the game is already over.


Creatine - good luck in your decision making...hope you learned a lot out of it.

Have a good weekend guys.

[SeXyBaCk]

Rather than focusing on women and second guessing what their behaviour means I'd rather concentrate on what's under my control. My own behaviour. Every guy has to decide for himself what he's going to put up with. Am I actually bothered by some women not calling me back if we've only had one or two encounters? And if I am... is it a healthy reaction? Am I sitting at home all day dwelling over a missed call? Is my own reaction to a rejection further undermining how I feel about myself?

Personally at this stage in my life I prefer women who know what they want and have their own life and don't chase me. I prefer being the one pursuing. And I'm not bothered by missed calls. I actually dated a woman for 5 years who rarely called me. The agreement was when I wanted something I was free to call. And dayum... do I actually miss that attitude. It was perfect now I come to think about it.

I'm really struggling to understand how someone can be in a state of confusion about where a relationship is going or where it stands, interest wise. Never been in that situation for longer than maybe half an hour at a time. I just ask, once. But I know I can handle the truth, whatever it might. I kind of expect people to be up front. I'd like to think I'd not pursue a woman who wouldn't be upfront about her intentions with me in first place. Alternatively I force myself to be the same with women, which I find much harder to do ...verbalising weaning interest, It's much easier to just ignore/ditch, don't make it right tho.

[Mark]

Quote:I think it's important that guys learn that instead of the nebulous "everyone is different and unique" mantra. It's misplaced and often mis-used as an excuse to continue to pursue a woman when the game is already over.

And the "all women are the same" mantra is often mis-used for the same reason.

[Creatine Dreams]

Hey guys, thanks for all the insightful comments.

I will be seeing her tonight at a large social event so I will see how she acts around me.

Regardless, of how it goes, I have decided that I do need to talk to her to see where we stand.

But not tonight. Tonight will be a fun night of drinking, dancing and other shenanigans.

I hope you all have a good weekend!

[Matty]

(03-30-2012 03:30 PM)baller08 Wrote:  

(03-30-2012 05:47 AM)Matty Wrote:  What Baller and many other post PUAs will try to sell u on is the idea that all woman behave the same. This is of course ludacris, and it goes way beyond dating.

I know...those nutty PUAs and psychologist and scientists and medical doctors and surgeons and criminal profilers and advertisers....it's ridiculous. Everyone is 100% the same in every way shape and form in every single thing we do. We are simply carbon copies of each other...because that was exactly what I was trying to convey. Right?

Not EVERY man is attracted to Kate Beckinsale, surely there are men out there who rather have sex with Melissa McCarthy. Do you, Matty? Oh you don't? Wow...neither do I! What a coincidence. What a minute...Creatine probably doesn't either. Nor Chaos or Mark or Sexyback. Hmm...wow...I can't believe it! We probably like different movies and music, are different ages, grew up differently, are different races, have different careers, from different countries, have a different favorite color...but we're the same when it comes to baseline attraction. Ludicrous!

Lol, your not surgeon dude. Or a medical doctor, or a scientist. I had a response panned out, but fortunately I just finished reading this massive brick of an article everyone on here's been talking about here from the rawness (http://therawness.com/reader-letters-1-part-4/), and I don't really think I can say it any better that Ricky Raw. Ricky's talking specifically about the older routine based game, but in my view, it's the same shit as post PUA's suffer from: predicting and controlling woman's behaviours, such as the notion that she only went out with Creatine Dreams because she thought he was a "big player", reading her "signals", blah blah.

And FYI, Kate Beckinsale doesn't really do it for me. I think I probably saw at least 10 "average" looking girls on my way home today i'd rather sleep with. Gasp- I don't want to bang the girl my friends think is hot, i'd rather have a girl that I'M attracted to! Damn, that's fuckin beta....bro! lol

Quote:

"Another problem with pickup that makes it sophisticated codependency is the damaging belief that the outcome is always in your control when you’re a true alpha. It takes the codependent’s natural urge to blame himself and masks it as positive traits, like accountability, persistence, and social intelligence. See, everything that goes wrong with a woman is the man’s fault. He wasn’t alpha enough. He was too reactive. He didn’t give the right response. He didn’t stand at a 45 degree angle. He didn’t peacock enough. He didn’t “neg” her at the right level. He held his drink at his waist. He showed too much enthusiasm. He passed her first two shit tests, but caved at her third one. He didn’t properly build comfort before going for sex. He didn’t do the right things to create attraction. And so on and so on.

Meanwhile thanks to evolutionary psychology rationalizing, less things than ever are the woman’s fault. The PUA actually blames women for less of their crappy behavior than a normal codependent. She’s now not just badly socialized, she’s genetically incapable of not behaving crappy unless she’s gamed by an alpha. When her problems are now genetically determined, it’s a lot harder to hold them accountable even in your own mind. Their social shortcomings become now viewed as evolutionary strengths."

Quote:

"Which brings me to another dangerous aspect of pickup: control freakery. You become obsessed with imagining, predicting and controlling every last outcome. You imagine hypnotizing people. You imagine having a perfect answer ready for every possible question. You imagine having some kind of hypnotic pattern you can run that will lead the interaction wherever you want. You imagine working out the angle at which to stand, the proper amount to tilt your head, a long, complicated system to follow where even your contingency plans have contingency plan and so on. Or you decide to learn as many manipulation techniques as humanly possible by reading a ton of strategy books like those of Machiavelli, Sun Tzu and Robert Greene. What this all boils down to is one thing: fear of rejection and trying to protect one’s ego by mastering the outcome in your head beforehand."

http://therawness.com/reader-letters-1-part-4/

---

@Creatine Dreams

I think you've got a good handle on the situation. If you want to talk to her to clear the air, then do it. But definitely don't beat yourself up trying to figure out why she's no longer able to see you. Could be anything. I kinda went through something similar when the girl I sleeping with went back home a couple months ago, and things got a lot better when I realized that the fling ending was something I had no control over, and thus shouldn't worry about.

[Creatine Dreams]

Yeah, Matty. I read that article on the Rawness. And I must say that it was very insightful. Regarding my situation, I think that this fling, relationship or whatever you want to call it is definitely over. I will probably write a detailed post about it so I can get some feedback, but right now, I am going to go on a run. It is too nice out to be on the internet!

[Creatine Dreams]

So here is the latest.

So I went to a social event, basically a dance. I saw the girl there and we said hello. She mostly spent her time talking to her friends. I went off and did some mingling on my own. One of my friends saw me and said I looked sad. I played it off and continued on socializing with people. Eventually, alcohol sort of cheered me up and I was having fun.

I saw her a couple of times through out the night but she always seemed distant to me. She was flirting with other dudes and while this irked me a little bit, I didn't really care that much. Other than the fact that one of dudes tried to move in when things were going better. But that was anger directed at him.

Later on, I saw her when I was drunk and we made out a little bit but the passion just was not there. Kissed her maybe three times though out the night but I was just not really feeling it and she probably was not either. Eventually, I met up with her at the end of the night by chance. She was looking for her friend and I helped her find her and we walked to the bar for the after party.

While at the bar she mostly spent time comforting her friend who was having issues with her boyfriend. Her friend is not really the best role model as far as healthy women go. But she is really nice to the girl I was seeing and always compliments her so there is probably some kind of weird symbiotic dynamic going on between them.

While at the bar, I walked by the girl I was seeing and noticed her getting a number from this one dude. I doubt he knew that we were sorta dating so I have no qualms with that. The dude however, has been described as creepy by a few of my female friends. This makes me wonder about what type of men this girl I was seeing looks for and in turn, makes me wonder about myself a little bit.

Anyways, at the end of the night, she got a ride home from her friend because she was really drunk. She kissed me good bye and that was that. If this was a month ago, I am pretty sure I would have gone home with her and had sex but I did not ask and let her go on her way.

Later, at around 3am or so, she sent me a drunk text thanking me for looking out for her hoping that my night was awesome. I got the text in the morning and I have not responded. I have not gotten any texts from her since. Pretty sure she has been stalking my facebook though.

Anyways, here are my thoughts and questions to anyone who feels like giving me input.

1. Should I make an attempt to break it off with her in person or just let this one fade away? I am really inclined to let this one fade away because I feel that the interest level has diminished significantly. The only benefit for myself I can see for breaking it off in person is maybe getting some feedback from her as to why she lost interest. Of course, who knows how reliable what she says to me will be.

2. Should I feel angry towards her? I kind of do and I kind of don't. On one hand, the interest level between us has definitely diminished so I get why she would be moving on. On the other hand, I am a little mad that she rejected me and I did not like seeing her get hit on by other guys. On the plus side, I don't care as much as I would have in the past.

3. When I am not around her, I sometimes feel that I miss the idea of her. Not so much her, but more how things used to be between her and I. I take it this is normal.

4. Finally, if she contacts me to hang out, should I do it for sex? I know that a relationship with this girl is 99% out of the question but I would not mind having sex with her again.

[Tim]

You need to cut this girl. If you feel that it would be disrespectful to do so without telling her, then talk to her. Either way you seem to have very poor boundaries for yourself around this girl. I think you've settled into patterns with her that mean this relationship is no longer healthy for you. Time to let go and move on.

[Creatine Dreams]

Not to sound stupid, but what are these things called boundaries?

I am still learning, and I think I need a little bit of education about setting some healthy boundaries for myself.

I am hoping that Mark's book addresses this in depth.

And yeah, I know this is unhealthy. I looked at this night we hung out mostly as an experiment to see how she would react to me. And it pretty much went the way I thought it would. I had already written this relationship off prior to seeing her.

[Mark]

There's a LOT of mental masturbation going on here. You're clearly hung up on this girl not because you have strong feelings about her, but because of your insecurities. Just let her go. If she's taking numbers from other guys and flirting with them, then there's no reason to make a big deal out of it. Just go out and meet some other girls.

If you don't like her enough to have sex with her, then I'm not sure why you're expending so much mental energy on her.

[SeXyBaCk]

Crea, I hate to be the one saying it mate, but you're on your way of becoming a doormat around this woman.

If you were your own friend at this party and you'd see yourself mulling around trying to have fun and every hour or so your/his pseudo date comes over to kiss him/you, rather drunk, inbetween talking to other guys (who are creeps), taking numbers and so on, wouldn't you just want to punch him/yourself in the face already? She's embarrassing you. Where's your pride?

I hereby revoke any advice I dispensed further up in the thread. I was hopeful this woman, given that she is responsible for a child was mature enough not to play games with you. I read your account and to me it's either she's playing some weird game with you or is blatantly disrespecting you, maybe not intentionally and due to just being immature and directionless. Either way, it's time to ditch. There's nothing left for you to gain in this.

I still believe you need to go over there and tell her you don't think you're feeling it anymore. Not for her, but for yourself. You need to make that memory that you're ending it. Clean slate. None of this i'll ignore her till she sends 3 texts in quick succession late on a weekend night asking me to come over. No sir.

As for should you have sex with her if she offers? I get what you're saying, you think you might be able to keep her around as a sex buddy. That could come in handy right? I don't think you can handle it. You'll want more, not get it and feel hurt. It's not going to work. Maybe through your own feelings tainting your description of accounts... I can't see anything in your friday evening post that suggests you actually like this person. So what is there left to do? Since it's established that you don't care for her, don't worry about your emotional wellbeing. Out of sight, out of mind.

[FirstAidKit]

Mildly going off topic with the 'human nature' stuff, but not sure where else to put it.

Check out this list of 'human universals' found in every culture:

Human Universals

I guess it's a nice reminder that it's not just 'all women are (mostly) the same', it's all people are (mostly) the same.

[Salaam]

(04-01-2012 11:39 PM)Creatine Dreams Wrote:  Not to sound stupid, but what are these things called boundaries?

I am still learning, and I think I need a little bit of education about setting some healthy boundaries for myself.

I am hoping that Mark's book addresses this in depth.

And yeah, I know this is unhealthy. I looked at this night we hung out mostly as an experiment to see how she would react to me. And it pretty much went the way I thought it would. I had already written this relationship off prior to seeing her.

In a lot of ways, our boundaries give shape to our identity. Its what we will and won't tolerate or allow from people, which obviously tells you a lot about who you are.

An important boundary when dealing with people, especially women is that of time and energy. Its important that you give a lot of thought to which women you allow to take up your time and in what ways, in what ways they occupy your thoughts (mental energy), and what you are willing to do for them and with them (physical energy).

Me personally I wouldn't waste my time and energy sleeping with someone who I have no real feelings for. I could give that pleasure to another woman who I feel is worthy of it, or redirect that energy into other pursuits I desire.

[Mark]

(04-02-2012 10:51 AM)FirstAidKit Wrote:  Mildly going off topic with the 'human nature' stuff, but not sure where else to put it.

Check out this list of 'human universals' found in every culture:

Human Universals

I guess it's a nice reminder that it's not just 'all women are (mostly) the same', it's all people are (mostly) the same.

This has really become a pet peeve of mine the past few months, when people say "All women are like X," when usually most men are the exact same way.

[FirstAidKit]

(04-02-2012 04:30 PM)Mark Wrote:  

(04-02-2012 10:51 AM)FirstAidKit Wrote:  Mildly going off topic with the 'human nature' stuff, but not sure where else to put it.

Check out this list of 'human universals' found in every culture:

Human Universals

I guess it's a nice reminder that it's not just 'all women are (mostly) the same', it's all people are (mostly) the same.

This has really become a pet peeve of mine the past few months, when people say "All women are like X," when usually most men are the exact same way.

For sure. I don't disagree that there are general trends in behaviour, but overlapping bell curves and that really mean that there's about as much difference between two women or men than one of each.

[SeXyBaCk]

I don't see why would you want to predict other people's behaviour in first place, in particular a woman's. Sure I get the desire wanting to be able to predict say sports scores or similiar events (involving punting) but behaviour or someone's emotional reaction? Why? It's a consuming mental effort that if (most likely) proves off/wrong can be a source of frustration for yourself or at least confusion. In the unlikely event you do predict someone's reaction spot on then you might on one hand feel like a puppet master or feel cognitively superior to the other party, which in a romantic setting in not a place you want to be at.

I'd much rather let life and people surprise me. I appreciate people's interest in psychology out of fascination for the human nature, but I suspect an intense interest in typical behaviours and prediction of such is an indicator of a controlling (and needy) personality.

When a woman does something I consider typically female ... even if it's source of frustrating to me at the time ... I take note of it as something feminine, a trait I greatly appreciate, when seen as such. And when it's communicated it's perceived as a compliment. Rather than saying "you're reaction overly emotional again 'cause you're menstruating, all I said was ...." and so on.

[Mark]

Even after all of these years, and hooking up with hundreds of women, and dating dozens and dozens of them, they never fail to surprise me. Never. Almost every single one I get involved with eventually surprises me in some way.

There are clear overarching patterns to human behavior, but in the end, we are human, and our behavior is far too complicated to ever predict with any accuracy.

[Creatine Dreams]

I guess it is kinda like baseball. No two pitches are ever exactly the same but after a while, you start to notice similarities.

The key is stepping up to the plate and not being afraid to strike out.

That being said, I need to spend some more time in the batting cages!

[Mark]

Damn dude... that analogy was a home run.

[IdEngager]

(04-02-2012 11:14 PM)Mark Wrote:  Damn dude... that analogy was a home run.

I thought you quit sports for at least 30 days???

[baller08]

Creatine - read my post again that I gave you on my very first response to you.

http://baller08.blogspot.com/2011/03/kno...-away.html

The rest of you read it too and tell me again how we "can't predict or interpret certain behaviors".

Why do you guys think this is a "PUA thing"? I'm not a PUA. I've never posted a single word on a PUA forum. I've been doing this since before I knew what a PUA was. (I think some things in that community are good, especially for beginners and then it can get very unhealthy...but that's a different topic).

Mark - you of all people should know that there are absolutely universal behaviors besides just smiling or sadness. Your entire book, Models, is based on making blanket predictions on both men and women.....and correctly so if I may add.

I'll Paypal anyone $1,000 if you can find where I said, "every woman is the same in every way shape and form".

Come on.

All I said was...

1) If a woman showed the signs that Creatine's woman did, she is no longer interested.

2) That Creatine, in his current development (early 30's, first real relationship) will not have the fortitude yet to talk to her and not be more confused.

3) That she has already told him she is no longer interested BY HER ACTIONS and that if he talked to her she can tell him whatever he wants to hear.

4) That she will most likely not make it clean for him and actually say, "I'm no longer interested". Most women won't.

5) That he will try to hold on for sex due to lack of options

6) That he will continue to waste more time with her so instead he should just stop all contact and move on.

7) That a woman who is attracted to a guy will not be consistently too busy for him.


How is that bad advice?

If you guys want to dispense advice, you have to look at the individual who is asking and take into consideration where he is in his progress. All of you guys really gave Creatine shitty advice here. He didn't want to walk away from her and you guys encouraging him to "just talk to her" gave him the excuse to hang on.

I've been doing this for nearly 10 years. You guys all have a lot to learn.


Mark - you have helped tons of men and you've seen this EXACT scenario time and again. This was something you should have been able to call in your sleep.


And Creatine - I already told you last week, don't hang on for the sex. What are you doing now? I'll tell you again what I told you on my first response.....cut all contact and move on.

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(04-01-2012 11:36 AM)Matty Wrote:  And FYI, Kate Beckinsale doesn't really do it for me. I think I probably saw at least 10 "average" looking girls on my way home today i'd rather sleep with. Gasp- I don't want to bang the girl my friends think is hot, i'd rather have a girl that I'M attracted to! Damn, that's fuckin beta....bro! lol

Nice try, Matty. My question was...would you rather have sex with Kate Beckinsale or Melissa McCarthy?

You and I are probably different in many, many ways. I'm sure there are things you are very good at and know that I don't and vice versa.

But the question was....Kate and Melissa...which one would you rather have sex with?

Well?

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(04-02-2012 09:37 AM)SeXyBaCk Wrote:  I hereby revoke any advice I dispensed further up in the thread. I was hopeful this woman, given that she is responsible for a child was mature enough not to play games with you. I read your account and to me it's either she's playing some weird game with you or is blatantly disrespecting you, maybe not intentionally and due to just being immature and directionless. Either way, it's time to ditch. There's nothing left for you to gain in this.

No shit, really?

Wait a minute....so this woman has been cheated on twice in a row....went out with Creatine even though she thought he was this big player....all of a sudden stopped having time for him when she realized he wasnt.......AND you guys are now surprised she's giving her phone number to a guy who is seemingly creepy?

Really?

You guys crack me up. You don't even take your own damn advice. You cannot control what women do. THAT is true.

You cannot control a woman's character. But you can certainly measure it. And if you don't know how to recognize patterns and be able to say, "This isn't a woman I want in my life or to have a relationship with"....yeah...you're going to be in for a lifetime of hurt.

[SeXyBaCk]

+ 10 brownie points for Baller?

Bottom line for me is Crea needs to come to his own conclusions and make his own decision about his own life (which he is doing) over other people simply telling him what to do or how to act. I think this discussion was a part of his decision making.

[baller08]

BTW Sexyback - this is actually good advice for any guy in Creatine's circumstance and level of progress: "As for should you have sex with her if she offers? I get what you're saying, you think you might be able to keep her around as a sex buddy. That could come in handy right? I don't think you can handle it. You'll want more, not get it and feel hurt. It's not going to work. Maybe through your own feelings tainting your description of accounts... "

I could come in and make all sorts of "not everyone is the same" arguments and try to pick apart that advice...but truthfully and realistically speaking....most every guy in Creatine's situation will succumb to what you said. If I came in and threw around a bunch of misplaced platitudes and not look at the advice you gave him for the value that it had then I would be doing Creatine a disservice.

Not everyone is the same = Just be yourself. It's lazy. Its something people say to not take responsibility for their own happiness and development. It's easier for someone in Creatine's position to say, "Yeah...her behavior doesn't necessarily mean anything, after all every woman is different. I'll just hang in there and see". That's a lot harder than saying, "As much as I don't like being alone again, I have to admit that her behavior indicates she is no longer interested and I have to get back out there and risk rejection and work towards another relationship".

---

(04-02-2012 10:51 AM)FirstAidKit Wrote:  Mildly going off topic with the 'human nature' stuff, but not sure where else to put it.

Check out this list of 'human universals' found in every culture:

Human Universals

I guess it's a nice reminder that it's not just 'all women are (mostly) the same', it's all people are (mostly) the same.

Good list, FirstAidKit. Thanks for sharing that.

All houses are the same.......from a structural standpoint. They all should have a solid foundation, they all have beams of some sort, they all have plumbing, electrical wiring, insulation, etc.

Inside however....no 2 houses are alike.

Humans are the same way. When people refuse to or are too lazy to learn about humans' "structural" make up and insists how "no two houses (humans) are alike".....I know that that is a person who is in for a lifetime of confusion and frustration.

Its wonderful when you walk into a house and discover how it's decorated (ie: learning about someone and being surprised by them). But it's not ok to see cracks all around the foundation of a house (ie: obvious negative behavior or character signs) and exclaim, "Oh that's ok, just because there's cracks in the foundation and the roof is caving in doesn't mean the house is not livable....after all every house is different!!"