Trust Issues

[Leo]

Have any ou you guys dealt with a girl with trust issues? I met this fantastic girl with a lot of traits that I like in a woman BUT she has trust issues, it seems that she's never gonna be comfortable with me, with any man. Sometimes she opens up for a little while just to go back to her shell. What can I do to look like a trustworthty man in her eyes? Her tests have no end and even though I know she likes me I can feel her fear at the same time. What a dilemma! I like her but I can't get closer to her because of her fear. Any suggestion?

[Alvar]

Drop her?

Sorry if that sounds harsh but what are the chances that you will be the heroic knight that saves the princess? Think of how difficult it is for us to open up and grow emotionally - and yet, we got ourselves voluntarily in this road. And iirc, you're in your late 30s too, which means that she's also a grown up. She's probably never going to change, I'm afraid.

I used to be like an magnet for these girls. My ex-wife had lots of trust issues, having grown in a broken family and seeing her father move to another continent. My last gf, grew in a "normal" family but, after a few months I found myself as another piece of furniture in her house - she enjoyed an aggressive male in bed but held a very dominant and independent frame when it comes to how life is to go forward. Funny, both had big dogs... There were others, but, AFAIK, I don't think any of them came around with me or any other guy.

A relationship with a girl like that can poison you emotionally. You may find yourself being less straight forward and less willing to risk the disapproval of others, if that was your usual behaviour around this type of girls before you've joined the community - that is what I found recently after one incident with one of these girls.

If you are to give a chance for your relationship to continue you should remember that you are already a trustworthy man (or maybe you are not, but that does not depend of this girl.) That you are ok. And even though you may have to endure the tests patiently, the responsibility to come around should clearly be with her.

[Halo Effect]

Drop her.

Let me guess. When she opens up and confides in you, you feel great. The connection you have with her, and the trust she shows, feel very special. Especially because it is so hard to get! And it gives you hope that you can "fix" this girl. But then she closes up again and it feels like you´re grasping for air. The connection is suddenly not there anymore. The fragility of the connection can also make you insecure... You may find yourself seeking her validation, in stead of being a man and doing and saying what you want, even if it leads to her disapproval.

That's what it was like for me anyway. I've dated women like this. One in particular sounds very much like the one you describe. We came close, and then she suddenly dropped me without a word or explanation. She wasn't capable of forming a healthy connection. She told me that the connection she did feel with me (while we were still dating), although it felt warm and special, scared her.

Quote:A relationship with a girl like that can poison you emotionally. You may find yourself being less straight forward and less willing to risk the disapproval of others, if that was your usual behaviour around this type of girls before you've joined the community - that is what I found recently after one incident with one of these girls.

True, true, and true.

[Jon]

I wouldn't say drop her. What I'd say is call her out on her trust issues. these are HER issues, not something you are doing wrong. Be nice about it, but make it clear that you don't consider this something that is really your fault.

[Leo]

Thank you so much guys. This make A LOT of sense!!!!! It's great to belong to this Forum.

Halo Effect Wrote:Drop her.

Let me guess. When she opens up and confides in you, you feel great. The connection you have with her, and the trust she shows, feel very special. Especially because it is so hard to get! And it gives you hope that you can "fix" this girl. But then she closes up again and it feels like you´re grasping for air. The connection is suddenly not there anymore. The fragility of the connection can also make you insecure... You may find yourself seeking her validation, in stead of being a man and doing and saying what you want, even if it leads to her disapproval.

That's what it was like for me anyway. I've dated women like this. One in particular sounds very much like the one you describe. We came close, and then she suddenly dropped me without a word or explanation. She wasn't capable of forming a healthy connection. She told me that the connection she did feel with me (while we were still dating), although it felt warm and special, scared her.


True, true, and true.

[Halo Effect]

Ultimately, it's your decision. Your situation may be very different from mine. What can help is to ask yourself these questions:
In general, does she make you feel happier, or less happy in your life?
Does she make you feel like a MAN or like less of a man?
Does she inspire confidence or make you doubt yourself?
Can you be yourself around her, or do you watch what you say around her?

But even if she makes you feel good, you won't be able to change her. So if you desire that strong connection with a girl (that you sometimes get a glimpse of with this girl) you won't ever get it with her, in all likelihood.

In my situation, even though the girl elicited strong feelings in me and we had many things in common, I often felt a nagging sense of emptiness in my chest around her (I think because I subconsciously knew that the connection wasn't right) and when she left I was full of doubt and worry. I noticed that I started seeking her approval almost unconsciously. She made me less confident about myself, and a lot unhappier.

Many men will advise you to simply avoid women with commitment issues and emotional baggage. I chose to ignore that advice and find out for myself. I learned that it's best to simply avoid women with commitment issues and emotional baggage.

[Leo]

Halo Effect Wrote:Many men will advise you to simply avoid women with commitment issues and emotional baggage. I chose to ignore that advice and find out for myself. I learned that it's best to simply avoid women with commitment issues and emotional baggage.

I agree a 100%. I decided to drop her. Enough is enough, she's not gonna change, she needs professional help. I'm not a shrink and I don't want to be a shrink, my time is too valuable to waste it like that. There are healthy women out there. What is driving me crazy is WHY do I try to relate with this woman when is fucking obvious that she's fucked up? Well, your cicle of:"When she opens up and confides in you, you feel great. The connection you have with her, and the trust she shows, feel very special. Especially because it is so hard to get! And it gives you hope that you can "fix" this girl. But then she closes up again and it feels like you´re grasping for air. The connection is suddenly not there anymore. The fragility of the connection can also make you insecure... You may find yourself seeking her validation, in stead of being a man and doing and saying what you want, even if it leads to her disapproval." Makes a lot of sense, I didn't notice it myself, thanks a lot for that. Plus I tend a lot to blame myself for her erratic behavior, even though I had some moments of lucidity and could see that it is not my fault but how fucked up she is. Another factor is the fact that I do like her personality, her sound side, and we have a lot of things in common and because she keeps coming after me when I reject her crazy behavior I fall again in the same cycle that you mentioned before. Even worse, we used to work together, thank God she quit few weeks ago. She had the nerve to ask me to go to work with her. I said to myself: she's never gonna trust me, no matter what I do, NOW she's asking me to go to work with her, Jesus Christ! I had to get rid of the idea of: Poor girl! She was betrayed and she's a single mom. Fuck that! It's not my bussiness, she needs to look for help for herself, it's her life and I can't do anything about it. But I think the fact of working with her and that I could see her nice side, blinded me for a while. Thank God she quit, seriously!

Thanks Halo Effect and Alvar, this feel like a group therapy. I'm glad I'm not the only one with this problem and that you guys can relate and give me effective advice. I really appreciate it. I'm not gonna accept her if she comes back to me to open up for a little while just to go back to her shell. Fuck that! It's not my bussiness, I have to take care of myself.

[Alvar]

Part of the problem is that these girls can be such great prospects, when they are at their best they're amazing. I think was Bob Glover who said that nice guys keep investing on these girls because the hopeful reward is so high. And we still long for these girls, we're wired that way.
I still remember a chick I met at a bar in January with an amazing lifestyle. We kept in touch but fortunately we never managed to arrange a time. This girl was a wreck with all sorts of emotional issues and as a late teen she had gotten into a bet to see how many engagement rings she could get within a one year (3, when she was uncovered...) Of course it did not occur me to ask myself what does a PhD med student with a part time as a model wants from a single dad with a crappy job and poor lifestyle...

Getting involved with these girls in LTR is like playing with the fire. 4,5 years after my divorce I have had nightmares recently with my ex-wife and a recent remark over the phone got me in a bad mood because I though "I felt for it", the old pattern: accusation from her> defence> feeling guilty>lower self-esteem>seeking her approval. I don't want to scare anyone reading, this are likely to be related to my current therapy and other events in my life, and we did have a pretty dysfunctional relationship. Yet, I still have feelings for her and still find attractive, for example, variations in her voice tone, her body and facial moves... Sometimes it feels that it would have much easier if she had cheated on me.

[Leo]

Alvar Wrote:Part of the problem is that these girls can be such great prospects, when they are at their best they're amazing. I think was Bob Glover who said that nice guys keep investing on these girls because the hopeful reward is so high. And we still long for these girls, we're wired that way.

True! But thank God I was able to see the craziness of this particular girl, I could feel something was wrong. For example: she's ALL THE TIME with her best friend, I imagine that's another way to keep guys away while she's "interacting" with them. She kept saying she wanted to go out with me, but she never really did. The only way she was able to show what she feels for me was when she got drunk at work: she hugged me, she bit my lips, she squeezed my hand, etc. Just to act like nothing happened the next day. Sigh! Way too much craziness, I'm better off. Something else that she used to do was requesting more actions from me to make HER feel more comfortable: stay after work with me, when she quit she asked me to go to work with her, etc. All that erratic behvaior is part of who she is, not only her nice part, that for sure she has it. I didn't lose sight of that.

[Leo]

[quote=Alvar]Part of the problem is that these girls can be such great prospects, when they are at their best they're amazing. I think was Bob Glover who said that nice guys keep investing on these girls because the hopeful reward is so high. And we still long for these girls, we're wired that way.
QUOTE]

I don't think we ARE WIRED this way. This is a perfect example of how we idealize a girl and we overlook her flaws: trust issues and other she MUST have, and care way too much more about her rather than ourselves. Huge syndrome of the nice guy. These girls just think about themselves, they don't care if we have to wait a long time for them, they are gonna be available when they feel they are ready and that's gonna take a longtime if it really happens. Another factor that's happening here is the assumption that this girl is the ONLY special girl on earth when she's at her best. There are more girls out there with the same qualities and hopefully not fucked up like her. This situation of tunnel vision narrow our chances with other girls and doesn't allow us to see her flaws. After all if we haven't gone out on dates with a girl like this (or if she disappears without any explanation , like Halo Effect mentioned before) we really don't know this girl. I've noticed too that this kind of crazy girls take advantage of their social circle to TRY to go out on dates again, because that's the only way they can feel more confident: having the guy pretty close to them. Their precautions are huge! Nothing is never enough and we think way too much about them, instead of ourselves.

[8_Ball]

I made the rule for myself not to date women who have any psychologic issues, which have a big effect on our relationsship, no matter how much I like the woman. Usually it always turns into drama at some point, specially with low self-esteem or crazy women. even if she lets you to get closer to her and opens up, she will overreact hard about some marginal things, plus will need A LOT of attention all the time (e.g. by continuing with her test). And when you leave her, because you are tired from all the drama, she will take it as proof that no men are trustworthy, so this won´t be a good experience neither for her not for you.

But of course it´s your choice, whether you want to spend so much time and specially energy for her.

[Alvar]

Leo Wrote:I don't think we ARE WIRED this way. This is a perfect example of how we idealize a girl and we overlook her flaws: trust issues and other she MUST have, and care way too much more about her rather than ourselves. Huge syndrome of the nice guy.

Yes and no. Drawing from my own experience, I've been conditioned this way due to my upbringing and all the issues with my mom. As a result I do immediately notice and react when I find myself in the presence of a histrionic type. For the last 4 years I've been going back and forth between the more reserved girls and these girls. I haven't yet soothed the need in myself for that voice of the mother telling me how good and amazing I am, nor have I appreciated much girls who don't play guilt on me and forced me to seek their approval.

I've got a middle-aged lady living bellow who constantly complains of my noise. She once came to my door and asked me "why are you doing this to me" and told me that "you're much quieter when your children are over" - meaning she knows I have girls over. She has also sent me a couple of nasty sms's. My friends they all joke that she wants something from me and, even though I won't ever acknowledge, it turns me on, at times... And hell, trust me, you don't want to touch her with a stick. No stick whatsoever...

On the other hand seeing how this works in me is pretty powerful. I can stop, observe my mind, and decide before I act.

[Leo]

Excellent! That's what I'm talking about, you can recognize what's going on in your mind, step back and make a decision. As you said we have been CONDITIONED to act like this and thanks to EXPERIENCE I can step back and see the situation in a more objective way. I've noticed that these kind of girls elicit the same kind of reaction I used to have with my mom: looking for their approval even though they have an erratic behavior, because I like them and they don't give me their affection; just like my mom used to do. Even worse, these girls have trust issues so they do show their affection toward me sometimes, just to put it away later; way too similar to my experience with my mom. This kind of problems don't happen with girls that I don't like and have trust issues, I can easily see how sick they are and move on, but when I like a girl with trust issues I get emotional and just think about getting her affection no matter what.

I'm really glad I started this thread, has helped me a lot to recognize my mommy issues. Thank you again guys.

Alvar Wrote:Yes and no. Drawing from my own experience, I've been conditioned this way due to my upbringing and all the issues with my mom. As a result I do immediately notice and react when I find myself in the presence of a histrionic type. For the last 4 years I've been going back and forth between the more reserved girls and these girls. I haven't yet soothed the need in myself for that voice of the mother telling me how good and amazing I am, nor have I appreciated much girls who don't play guilt on me and forced me to seek their approval.

I've got a middle-aged lady living bellow who constantly complains of my noise. She once came to my door and asked me "why are you doing this to me" and told me that "you're much quieter when your children are over" - meaning she knows I have girls over. She has also sent me a couple of nasty sms's. My friends they all joke that she wants something from me and, even though I won't ever acknowledge, it turns me on, at times... And hell, trust me, you don't want to touch her with a stick. No stick whatsoever...

On the other hand seeing how this works in me is pretty powerful. I can stop, observe my mind, and decide before I act.

[Alvar]

Yeah, I'm also very happy you've started it.
There's something therapeutic about writing this down. I've heard it literally dozens of times and talked about it but, putting my own thoughts in order and writing them down has really helped me sort a lot of it in my mind.

Must review Wiseman's book and the part on writing down negative experiences. IIRC, the studies he quotes suggest that talking about your problems (with untrained persons) doesn't really help, whereas writing about the experience can go a long way.

[Leo]

Alvar Wrote:Yeah, I'm also very happy you've started it.
There's something therapeutic about writing this down. I've heard it literally dozens of times and talked about it but, putting my own thoughts in order and writing them down has really helped me sort a lot of it in my mind.

True, it helps A LOT to be aware of what's going on in your mind. It allows you to be more aware of yourself. Good advice.