The abundance dylema.

[Chaos]

I know Mark has a post about this but I want to vent my frustration a little bit here and get some feedback anyway.

When I started with this whole game thing I had had two long term girlfriends born out of neediness, being young and being the only thing I thought I could get. I had slept with 4 girls total and I had maybe 6 make outs. I thought meeting a women was one of the hardest things to do...

Right now, my honest to god count is 18 or 19 lays, maybe 60 or so kiss closes (I don't keep count anymore) and a some hundred #closes. I can't get any girl I want and I don't live in sex abundance, I have my dry spells from time to time, but truth to be told they don't worry me and usually I'm always with this or that girl.

The thing is I entered this whole thing with the idea of finding a nice girlfriend but the more time that goes by, the harder it gets to find one. At first I had almost no options and was willing to take what ever was given to me, now I have a fair share of options but somehow I manage to be always looking for more, always missing the game itself, flirting with this or that chick, the emotion of the first time you go for the kiss, the awkwardness of the approach sometimes. And all the sudden I find myself slowly but constantly getting bored of the girl I'm with at that moment.

It's kind of frustrating, it's like I'm always looking for something else and I'm not completely sure if that's having standards, fear of commitment or something else...

I think Mark, in models, says something in the likes of "guys who're looking for a girlfriend should get more lays, gusy who're looking of a lot of lays should get a girlfriend" (something like that). The problem is I'm not completely sure which of those guys I am.

What are your thoughts?

[Leo]

Well, if you have options you get picky. You are not motivated anymore by scarcity: when ANY woman that pays attention to you is "wonderful" because finally you are gonna get laid.
I think it's good to have options, to be demanding about women and don't settle down with ANY woman. At some point you are gonna find a fantastic girl and have a good relationship with her. Lately I've noticed that I'm becoming more demanding about women, not only physycally but intellectually too. So my next step is to hit on those women that really get my attention and reject those that are boring or don't make me feel anything. It takes time to get used to this but I think that's the idea, to be able to have options with women.
I've noticed lately that I'm not used to be with women that I really like, it's part of the process of getting good with women: you have to believe that you can date women that you like and overcome the anxiety related to that (not being needy). I think I have to stop getting advantage of the low hanging fruit and move to the next level where sex and interactions are gonna be more gratifying. The problem is my old friend: anxiety, is back in the picture again 'cause this is a new experience for me but I know I can do it.
That's my perspective, I hope it helps.

[Zelazny]

Maybe this sounds harsh, but you wanted a girlfriend when you entered this and when you still had a scarcity mindset. What did you want the girlfriend for?

There's a lot of ideas out there about how you should be or what you should feel in certain situations. But apparently, most women you meet do not inspire you to pursue a relationship. So why do you feel you want one / for what do you want a relationship?

[Mark]

I've become convinced that the abundance paradox is a phase, as I eventually came out of it (I wrote about it in early 2010 I believe) and I've since seen a few of my friends pass through it.

I believe it occurs when a guy's priorities shift from quantity of relationships to quality.

The answer is to 1) raise your standards and 2) raise the quality of your interactions: i.e., focus more on connecting and less on attracting/fucking. Assortment theory will eventually take care of the rest.

[baller08]

Disclaimer: This post is only for those in Chaos' position. If you are under 25 this most likely won't apply to you, especially if you're on this forum seeking advice. If you cannot get a phone number or get dates consistently or have had only 2 or 3 girlfriends in you life because they just came along, then please disregard this and stick with the other advice that is more appropriate for where you're at.

Chaos -

I know exactly what you're talking about, I went through the same thing.

Think of a starving young actor who just arrived in Hollywood. He'll go to any audition, he'll do every commercial that comes his way, he'll attend every function and will stick with anyone and everyone that can give him a shot to land a big role. Now some of them do land a big role and all of a sudden their pictures are on the cover of People, Entertainment Weekly, etc. The women come, they move into mansions, the cars are custom built, they stay at $10,000/night suites, etc. But after awhile that doesn't mean anything to them anymore. What started off as a dream to become a famous actor doesn't seem that fulfilling anymore.....so they move onto the next phase.

For those who don't go off the deep end and end up being serious actors, what happens to them? Think about guys like Pitt, Hanks, Clooney, Affleck, <insert actor you respect>. They only try to take on roles that mean something to them. It doesn't always mean it translates to box office success, but they don't need the money or the validation anymore. They only take on roles that fulfills them and makes them feel inspired. Even just as important, they turn down more roles than they take so they don't waste their time .

Right now you're in that weird, gray transition area that most dating systems and coaches don't address because it's not nice and neat and you can't fit it into a box. What you're looking for is your soul mate....or whatever term you want to put on it, doesn't matter.

You see, we talk a lot about how we should need no one because these pansy nice guys are so dependent. But realistically when you meet that woman that you can build your life with, no matter how good your life is at the time you meet her, you'll see your life soar. Men and women need each other. There is such a thing as someone that "completes you"....it's just not from a place of neediness so we stay away from that when talking to the desperate guys.

Of course the woman that eventually will be that for you in your life wouldn't want to be with you had you not made the changes you've made, so you're on the right track. Just keep on doing what you're doing. Don't ever "settle". I hate that term "settling down". When you meet the right woman it's not settling down. She'll help you be a better man and you'll be the man she can look up to, respect, and trust to lead your life together.

I know that some of what I'm saying is not something tangible for you right now, but I give you my word that when you meet her, you'll understand what I'm saying.

[Mark]

Also, what this transition will involve is actually turning down sex from girls for the first time in your life. This will completely mindfuck you -- the fact that something you worked so hard to get for years, you're now brushing aside because you'd rather sit at home and watch a movie -- but when you start to get comfortable with it, that's a good sign.

[baller08]

Exactly. Just like those actors who turned down roles when just a few years ago they would have died just to go to an audition.

I remember the first time this happened. A really sexy but high drama girl invited me over to her apartment for sex and I turned it down to go spend time with my (at the time) baby nephew. It was completely natural doing it too. It was that moment when I understood what having standards really meant.

[Chaos]

Thanks for the answers. Seems like a rough transition to make but I' not comfortable with where I am at right now anyway, so I think I will have to try and make that change happen. But I'm not sure I'm getting how to go about it or what you actually mean.

One thing I'm worried is going back to Mr. nice guy mode. I mean if I don't escalate, if I don't push for sex then that just feels like my old me, that guy who wouldn't make a move, it's not like I'm pussy right now but I kind of feel when the girl wants to be kissed and when she wants to have sex and I just go for it, and that usually happens in the first to maybe three dates. I think Mark has mentioned before that he mostly does the same, if sex doesn't happen in the first dates then he becomes bored, so I think there's something here I'm not quite grasping.

[baller08]

You know what, Chaos? This is one of those rare areas in your development where you don't really have to "make a change". It's not like AA where you have to consciously do something and it's a very clear cut phase or when you go for the kiss and overcome that fear. Those are really clear cut obstacles.

That is why I said that this is an area that dating systems don't address because it isn't something you can quantify. If you just keep dating women, the more you're accustomed to beauty and sex, the less tolerance you'll have for the drama queens, the temper tantrums, the unreasonable demands, the attention whores, the women with no loyalty, etc. You'll naturally start to see the values in characteristics that are important like how considerate a woman is or how she thinks of you first after awhile in a relationship or how she carries herself when men hit on her out of respect for you...stuff like that.

You'll come up with your own criteria but you get the idea. It's not a "phase" that you can change into, it's more of a slow progression and one day you'll find yourself knowing which women will be best for your life.

Edit to add: Don't worry about reverting to being a "nice guy"...which really means being a weak guy....you're passed it. Mentally you don't think you are yet but you are. You said you were overweight as a kid and sometimes you still see yourself that way in your mind's eye...same thing here. You're not that nice guy anymore...don't worry about reverting back. Your mindset is completely different now.

[Mark]

That fear of reverting to a Nice Guy is a legitimate fear. But at the same, just because you know karate doesn't mean you HAVE to walk around kicking everybody's ass. In fact, it's more confident to just be secure in knowing you can pull it out when you need it.

[Leo]

I understand what you are saying. But I'm stuck in the transition phase. I don't feel attraction anymore for ANY woman, but when I like a specific woman I become needy and of course I lose her. I have to remember to have an abundance mentality all the time.
So, somehow I'm getting better at PU and I didn't know it. Oh well!!!!

(04-20-2012 07:41 PM)Mark Wrote:  Also, what this transition will involve is actually turning down sex from girls for the first time in your life. This will completely mindfuck you -- the fact that something you worked so hard to get for years, you're now brushing aside because you'd rather sit at home and watch a movie -- but when you start to get comfortable with it, that's a good sign.

[baller08]

Leo - I think you and Chaos have two fairly different issues. I don't have time right now to break it down so I'll come back to this, but in short you still haven't got to the point yet when you behave the same with all women. You still revert back to your nice guy self when it's a girl you really like or maybe who shows high interest in you and is cute/sexy. That is a different issue than what Chaos is referring to....I think.

[Mark]

What Baller said.

[don]

super interesting thread for me. I've slept with i would guess somewhere between 100 - 200 girls now. Very few of them i would date long term (maybe 5 or 6).

i've shifted recently to only going after girls that are my 8+ (not just looks, personality etc) and it's paying some dividend. I decided a sharp shift in focus for a while was a good idea, and have thus been turning down quite a few situations that i know would end up with sex.

Not sure how long i'll continue with this but it's an interesting experiment. Will update on progress.

[Vagabond]

I have a similar issue as well; except I actually started dating a great woman, and it is going on for 1.5 years already. Due to our age (both early 30s) this means expectations of marriage and family from her side (and the parents, and friends, and the whole world pretty much). I don't really want any of that right now, and often yearn for my womanizing days when I roamed free and did whatever I wanted without having to answer to anyone.

I signed up to get some opinions on my problem, hopefully I write up a detailed post soon. Found Mark through the rooshvforum where he used to post quite a bit. Like his blog better, the guys over there, although many of them are quite smart and proficient womanizers, don't have the healthiest attitudes and life outlooks...

[Chaos]

(04-20-2012 07:41 PM)Mark Wrote:  Also, what this transition will involve is actually turning down sex from girls for the first time in your life. This will completely mindfuck you -- the fact that something you worked so hard to get for years, you're now brushing aside because you'd rather sit at home and watch a movie -- but when you start to get comfortable with it, that's a good sign.

It is mindfucking. What I've noticed is I get quite less opportunities when I go out as I tend to select my approach a lot more just based on looks and then narrow it even more based on the first minutes. So she doesn't just need to be hot but also be warm, the kind of girl who isn't harshly rejecting guy after guy but kindly rejecting them (hopefully until I approach ).

[Betterredthandead]

I think I've been through, and am going through a similar thing. Well I'll just explain. I've watched myself go through this pattern. It's a cycle that I can almost count on happening like the seasons falling into each other. I will have random hookups, nothing serious, always them more into me than me into them. Then I will find a girl that I like and stick with her longer than a while. Things will be nice for a time until i get bored of her. I will miss learning all the different parts of other women, and I will feel stagnant. Then I will leave the relationship and start over.
Usually after doing this I will feel that I had actually had a good thing going with the girlfriend, and I will feel stupid for letting myself get bored of her.
I think it's due to this fear of committing and getting comfortable in something. I get freaked out when things start getting really deep in the relationship. Like when your girlfriend plays those other roles than just the chick your banging.
I have a lot more to say on the subject but will hold back in case i've missed the mark completely.

I think I've been through, and am going through a similar thing. Well I'll just explain. I've watched myself go through this pattern. It's a cycle that I can almost count on happening like the seasons falling into each other. I will have random hookups, nothing serious, always them more into me than me into them. Then I will find a girl that I like and stick with her longer than a while. Things will be nice for a time until i get bored of her. I will miss learning all the different parts of other women, and I will feel stagnant. Then I will leave the relationship and start over.
Usually after doing this I will feel that I had actually had a good thing going with the girlfriend, and I will feel stupid for letting myself get bored of her.
I think it's due to this fear of committing and getting comfortable in something. I get freaked out when things start getting really deep in the relationship. Like when your girlfriend plays those other roles than just the chick your banging.
I have a lot more to say on the subject but will hold back in case i've missed the mark completely.


It's like Kierkegaard says, if you go through with a thing or do not go through with it. You will regret it either way.