The " Women are ALL whores" discussion

[Jean DeCuir]

There's something that been on my mind lately and usually results on me feeling insecure on relationships. After reading that " Emotional needs in dating" ( part 1 and part 2 so far) i feel like the security needs can't be satisfied.

It's about that old " Women are ALL whores" mantra that wonders arround the community.

Let me explain...

When i was a little boy my grandmothers and my mother told me i needed to be a gentleman. "Offer flowers to woman", they said. Protect them because they are like delicate flowers. Be a nice guy. Eat the damn soup and getting a lollipop at the end for being a nice boy. My father didn't spend much time playing football with me so i could learn to be competitive and impulsive.

Hollywood told me to wait for the end of the night, to show the womam how respectful i am, and only then make my move for the kiss.
This nice boy stuff seemed to be the real deal.

Then something terrible happent: I grew up.

First lesson: We live in a post-feminist society, wich means women are not inferior in any way and that they won't go to the damn kitchen whenever you tell them to. They are not saints!
Apart from that some guy wrote a book titled " The Game" saying that women like sex too, and they cheat.
And all the guys i met tro this book told me " Have you ever read about evolutionary psychology? Women want a provider and a lover. We are not monogamous!"

Now, instead of thinking "game over" whenever a girl tells me she has a boyfriend i say something who can be perceived as a "reframe" and poof! Phone number. I even had a girl telling me she had a boyfriend right after a make out session. And so did my friends.
The spells works for both sides... so watching a girl i care about making out with a random... fucking ouch!

This is not a healthy way to think of women but it's not healthy either to act like it's okay...

I want to know what you guys think of this view and how you guys cope with it... specially on relationship management ( i suck at relationship management)

[Mark]

Some women cheat some of the time. Most women do not cheat most of the time. You can screen for honest and trustworthy women (hint: look for one's with high self-esteem). If you're consistently attracting women who you cannot trust, then it probably means you have a lot of work to do on yourself.

And for what it's worth, any time I see statements like:
"All Women are X."
"All Men are Y."
Etc.

I immediately assume it's bullshit. It's almost impossible to ever say an entire population has a singular trait. I've been meaning to write a post on evolutionary psychology and how badly it's been butchered by the pick up community as well as the anti-feminists.

[Trickster]

Some women cheat. That doesn't mean all women cheat. My ex girlfriend was so devoted to our relationship, she felt even guilty when she had to turn down guys who made a pass at her. If your relationship with your woman is strong, the probability of her cheating is quite low. A woman cheating is usually a sign that their relationship is going bad.

[Matt T]

Bodybuilding.com has this discussion several times a day.

I want to ask them: if all they do is go to clubs and troll POF for girls, isn't selection bias playing a huge role in their experiences?

[Mark]

Matt T Wrote:I want to ask them: if all they do is go to clubs and troll POF for girls, isn't selection bias playing a huge role in their experiences?

Yes. A huge role.

And most guys STILL don't get it. They see women who get hit on all the time and think, "Man, they have so many options, they must just drop guys and fuck others whenever they want." They don't understand that when you get hit on constantly and you always have options, your mindset changes. Instead of taking whatever you can get whenever you want (like most guys), your mindset changes to holding out for the very best option possible. You have no problem passing on dozens of offers because you always have more options. Women who are hit on constantly begin to see every guy as the same: boring. If she's dating you, it's because there's something unique about you that she cannot find elsewhere.

I've dated girls who would literally get approached by other guys while I was on a date with them. Not only did they never hook up with those other guys, but every time it happened it just made me look even better to her by comparison. If you meet a girl who is secure in herself, values her relationship with you, and you bring a lot of unique qualities to the table that she appreciates, then she will never cheat on you.

Research also shows that men cheat when they are unhappy with themselves. Women cheat when they're unhappy with their relationship. Keep her happy in your relationship and you have nothing to worry about. Most women, if they're madly in love with you, don't even realize that other guys exist, much less want to have sex with them.

[Brian]

Mark Wrote:Yes. A huge role.

And most guys STILL don't get it. They see women who get hit on all the time and think, "Man, they have so many options, they must just drop guys and fuck others whenever they want." They don't understand that when you get hit on constantly and you always have options, your mindset changes. Instead of taking whatever you can get whenever you want (like most guys), your mindset changes to holding out for the very best option possible. You have no problem passing on dozens of offers because you always have more options. Women who are hit on constantly begin to see every guy as the same: boring. If she's dating you, it's because there's something unique about you that she cannot find elsewhere.

I've dated girls who would literally get approached by other guys while I was on a date with them. Not only did they never hook up with those other guys, but every time it happened it just made me look even better to her by comparison. If you meet a girl who is secure in herself, values her relationship with you, and you bring a lot of unique qualities to the table that she appreciates, then she will never cheat on you.

Research also shows that men cheat when they are unhappy with themselves. Women cheat when they're unhappy with their relationship. Keep her happy in your relationship and you have nothing to worry about. Most women, if they're madly in love with you, don't even realize that other guys exist, much less want to have sex with them.

Imo, this is a flawed thinking. My experience have told me that people who cheat will likely cheat again. How do i know this? Because i myself have never cheat on a woman. Keep in mind, i never cheat on a girl not because i "love her so much", it's because i love myself too much. I consider myself to be a man of integrity, and if you have integrity, you simply dont cheat.

On the other hand, the men and women over the years that cheat all lack integrity and have low self esteem, thus they will do it again as soon as their emotion dictate them.

When you have strong integrity, like myself, you're more likely to screen for people who will not cheat because they value their own words than if they value YOU not to cheat on that moment. The reality is, as much as your ego will think that because you're so great that a woman wont cheat on you, there will ALWAYS be a guy out there who's better looking WITH BETTER GAME, just like there will always be a girl out there who's better looking and have a better personality. If it's not her word that you can count in, there isnt a damn thing you can count in.

[Mark]

Uhh... it's not "thinking," it's called research.

But OK. I agree, people of integrity and high self esteem are likely to not ever cheat. People of low integrity and low self esteem are likely to cheat more often and repeatedly. Don't think we disagree on that.

[dr. love]

It would be interesting to know if the saying "women only cheat when they are unhappy in a relationship" holds any truth or does it only apply to women with high self esteem and integrity? And does it apply to anyone if you've been married for 20 years or something? But it would be hard to do any scientific research on that, since you would have to define what is high self esteem, which I think even professionals highly disagree on.

[Brian]

In all honestly, the definition of high esteem is a tricky one. How does one get high self esteem? Do you have to be successful in every aspect of your life to have one?

I 've met countless people who are supremely successful financially and yet they have absolutely zero qualm about lying and have low integrity(look at newt gingrich).

On the other hand, some people will not lie to you due to their spiritual belief system(which btw is one of the reason why i dont either). For example, most of you would probably recoil if i mention the church of mormon, namely the church of latter day saint(not the fundamentalist). Keep in mind that i'm a buddhist, so i'm not going here to spread any cult mindset to you guys. However, after my encounter with those people, i cant help but notice they're some of the nicest and most honest human being i've met. These people will most likely not lie or cheat on their wives. Theyr'e super serious about their ethic because of their loyalty to their god. Would one say they have high self esteem? Some are college students with very little success in life but yet have way higher integrity than most wall street tycoon.

[SeXyBaCk]

high self esteem = generally feeling good about oneself (content in your own body) + personal success (what this consists of can vary). You look at some people with high self esteem and wonder what it is exactly about them they take any pride from, and others seemingly meet all requirements and are always downbeat about themselves.

IMO cheating/no cheating has a lot to do with your upbringing, personal morals, and how much of a conscience you have. Also I kind of differ between emotionally cheating and physically cheating for sex only (general perception is men are more likely to cheat for sex if we can get away with it).

A beautiful self assured, confident woman who loves herself a lot, won't cheat on you, she'll just dump your ass and take up with next interest, if there is one at hand. And then there's also women who are just too nice and feel sorry for a guy they've been with a long time and fall in love with another guy. I've been in this position myself. Where the woman dithers for months, sometimes years to finally grow the balls to release the other guy (not doing him any favours in the process). I've noticed this happens with big sister type women, who feel responsible for guys (often they have younger brothers in their family).

Cheating also just comes down to the relationship the cheater is in. When it's a very long relationship sometimes it just comes down to stuff like a stale sex life. And either partner just goes out and gets themselves something new, realising in the process their actual partners suits them really well. As opposed to the relationship ending cheating which results in a break up, mostly indicating the relationship was already past it's due date.

As for the whole "all women are whores" attitude... belittling others to make yourself look less worse is a really negative approach to life. How much negativity is there in that philosophy, can anyone expect anything good to stem from it? It's like saying "I feel I suck badly at this class, therefore I'm not going ot study, actually the class is unimportant anyway, and who needs a university degree? Fuck it."

I decided a while ago to never put people down and instead just praise them. Even when criticism is required, start with the praise, as the criticism at the end, as a footnote. Even more so in situations where you feel you're competing. Never put down your opposition. And that's what the dating situation is for most guys, it's some sort of men vs women, only that the winning conditions are pretty blurred. If you feel it's a competition, at least do yourself the favour of talking up the opposition.

[Mark]

Self esteem has about 50 years of research tied to it, so look it up. Self esteem has little to do with how much money you make or how much political power you hold. In fact, people who obsess about making money or gaining power are often low self esteem individuals.

[Alvar]

To meet and keep around self esteem women you need to grow and maintain your own.

Quote:Branden argues that self esteem is a human psychological need and that to the extent this need remains unmet, pathology (defensiveness, anxiety, depression, difficulty in relationships, etc.) tends to occur. He defines self esteem formally as “the disposition to experience oneself as competent to cope with the basic challenges of life and as worthy of happiness,” and proposes that, while others (parents, teachers, friends) can nurture and support self esteem in an individual, self esteem also relies upon various internally generated practices. These consist of self-acceptance, living consciously, self-responsibility, living purposefully, self-assertiveness, and personal integrity.

Branden distinguishes his approach to self esteem from that of many others by his inclusion of both confidence and worth in his definition of self esteem, and by his emphasis on the importance of internally generated practices for the improvement and maintenance of self esteem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathaniel_B...elf_esteem

Raising healthy self-esteem seems to be what this forum is all about, IMO :thumbsup:

[Edmond Dantès]

Well. It's not just about self-esteem. But yeah self-esteem plays a huge role and I see it everywhere here in the forum. Questions about self-esteem, how to raise it or topics about themes that are connected with self-esteem.

Wouldn't it be time for a good article about self-esteem? So many people here would benefit from it.

Or you just read "The six pillars of self-esteem". I mean seriously guys, how often did you see a link towards that book in the last two, three months? Go get it. It's worth every penny.

[Mark]

It is a good book...

I was holding back everything on self-esteem, confidence, beliefs, etc. for a seminar I want to do later this year (and record and put out). But maybe I'll do a post on it. There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding surrounding it.

[Edmond Dantès]

Cool. Can't wait for it.

"Mastering Inner Game" actually can be traced back to these points in my opinion:

-fixing your self-esteem
-getting rid of your emotional issues
-changing your limiting beliefs into positive, supporting beliefs, which encourage you to take action
-facing your fears and developing self-confidence
-cultivating presence and charisma

The sad truth is that most pickup advice/companies just scratch on the surface of personal development and call it "Inner Game". There is so much bullshit around there (NLP, EFT and what the heck else) that it's very hard for beginners to find out what works and what not. And what they should focus on.

Mark, I would love to hear your opinion about the points, I wrote down. With which do you agree or disagree? Did I miss something?

[Matt II]

Might be a stupid question but why focus on inner game so much? I´d say get over you´re fears with an progressive, incremental exercise if you need to, basically get comfortable shamelessly hitting on girls, get some results with that and you wont need inner game work. I´ve seen too many guys sitting around saying: "I need to work on my inner game before I approach!"
If you seriously got some psychological issues okay, see a therapist. But this is about getting with girls. Don´t want to sound condescing though.

[Mark]

Quote:The sad truth is that most pickup advice/companies just scratch on the surface of personal development and call it "Inner Game". There is so much bullshit around there (NLP, EFT and what the heck else) that it's very hard for beginners to find out what works and what not. And what they should focus on.

I agree with this 100%. It's pretty sad what gets passed off as "inner game" in this industry.

I generally agree with you, with some caveats and maybe changing of some definitions here and there. I did a big post on the old Practical Pickup forum about my take on "inner game" and that I see it actually as somewhat of a causality chain beginning in teaching someone self-awareness.

Awareness -> Emotions -> Beliefs -> Perception -> Confidence -> Behavior -> Results

And then the results feed back into emotions and beliefs, filtered through your level of awareness. Self-esteem is related but not synonymous to the above chain. If someone becomes aware of their emotional impulses and negative beliefs, and begins to consciously behave in a more self-reliant and conscious way, he'll naturally begin to draw validation from within rather than from without, and build self-esteem. Emotional issues aren't gotten rid of as much as they're understood and adapted into healthy beliefs and behaviors.

That is more or less an outline of the program I want to put together. As with all of my programs, it would be interactive... half seminar (probably 5-6 hours) and half exercises, writing down experiences and feedback.

[Alvar]

Edmond Dantès Wrote:Well. It's not just about self-esteem. But yeah self-esteem plays a huge role and I see it everywhere here in the forum. Questions about self-esteem, how to raise it or topics about themes that are connected with self-esteem.

Wouldn't it be time for a good article about self-esteem? So many people here would benefit from it.

Or you just read "The six pillars of self-esteem". I mean seriously guys, how often did you see a link towards that book in the last two, three months? Go get it. It's worth every penny.

I meant self-esteem in the broader sense. Acquiring skills and developing practices conducing to a healthy self sense of self.
In the same vein, you can't do inner game work just by reading books and practising at home. You need to go out and find appropriate challenges that will help you grow and learn.


And yes, I re-listened to the audiobook recently. Everyone should read that one. And Glover's. And Manson's...

[Brian]

Mark Wrote:I agree with this 100%. It's pretty sad what gets passed off as "inner game" in this industry.

I generally agree with you, with some caveats and maybe changing of some definitions here and there. I did a big post on the old Practical Pickup forum about my take on "inner game" and that I see it actually as somewhat of a causality chain beginning in teaching someone self-awareness.

Awareness -> Emotions -> Beliefs -> Perception -> Confidence -> Behavior -> Results

And then the results feed back into emotions and beliefs, filtered through your level of awareness. Self-esteem is related but not synonymous to the above chain. If someone becomes aware of their emotional impulses and negative beliefs, and begins to consciously behave in a more self-reliant and conscious way, he'll naturally begin to draw validation from within rather than from without, and build self-esteem. Emotional issues aren't gotten rid of as much as they're understood and adapted into healthy beliefs and behaviors.

That is more or less an outline of the program I want to put together. As with all of my programs, it would be interactive... half seminar (probably 5-6 hours) and half exercises, writing down experiences and feedback.

Meditation is probably the best exercise for this. Someone once told me, a true meditator is in meditation at every waking moment of his life, not just sitting down in a lotus position.

It's funny how when i drove, once a while, i came to a realization how much background noises my brain create JUST so it can feel that particular emotion. It's usually negative emotion too.

The question that i try to ask myself everyday is, "how do i feel right now". This takes works, but if i put in the right effort, it will help me in my quest to really discover who i am.

[Edmond Dantès]

Mark Wrote:I agree with this 100%. It's pretty sad what gets passed off as "inner game" in this industry.

I generally agree with you, with some caveats and maybe changing of some definitions here and there. I did a big post on the old Practical Pickup forum about my take on "inner game" and that I see it actually as somewhat of a causality chain beginning in teaching someone self-awareness.

Awareness -> Emotions -> Beliefs -> Perception -> Confidence -> Behavior -> Results

And then the results feed back into emotions and beliefs, filtered through your level of awareness. Self-esteem is related but not synonymous to the above chain. If someone becomes aware of their emotional impulses and negative beliefs, and begins to consciously behave in a more self-reliant and conscious way, he'll naturally begin to draw validation from within rather than from without, and build self-esteem. Emotional issues aren't gotten rid of as much as they're understood and adapted into healthy beliefs and behaviors.

That is more or less an outline of the program I want to put together. As with all of my programs, it would be interactive... half seminar (probably 5-6 hours) and half exercises, writing down experiences and feedback.

Yeah I agree with you that it starts with self-awareness, which I see as a part of self-esteem (selfconciousness, first pillar of self-esteem after Nathaniel Branden)
It's definitely the first and most crucial step towards improving your "inner game". (We've got here in germany a saying: self-awareness is the first step towards improvement)

Awareness --> emotional issues and limiting beliefs pop up from the unconcious as they become concious --> negative emotions(psychological pain) come up as you discover them --> your concious mind distracts you, when a certain limit of psychological pain is reached (automatical defense reaction as it always just wants to help you, though it is in this situation a paradox)

If you neither have learned self-acceptance nor the tools to dissolve your emotional issue and become too aware of the emotional issues and really feel into them, it will fuck up your mind. (This goes out to all RSD-refugees and recovering RSD-ex members)

I like this part "Beliefs -> Perception -> Confidence"

My guess is that you wanted to say that you discover beliefs (most likely negative beliefs) reframe them by giving them a different meaning (logotherapy - men's search for meaning) and by doing it you eliminate your limiting belief and gain confidence as you replace the negative belief with a positive one that supports you to take action and to experience positive experiences which support your confidence.

"Confidence effects Behaviour effects Results." <-- True
________________________

My experience is that so, so many "inner game" topics corelate with eachother. For example: Self-esteem with self-confidence (through improving your integry), emotional health with self-esteem. Presence with Self-esteem, etc etc.

Oh and I have to update my list, I forgot some stuff:

So here is the new list:

"Mastering Inner Game" actually can be traced back to these points in my opinion:

-fixing your self-esteem indirectly (by the nathaniel branden way: improving your selfconciousness, self-acceptance, self-responsability, self-assertiveness, integrity and living purposely)

-getting rid of your emotional issues (fears, anxieties, shame, guilt, sadness, etc)

-changing your limiting beliefs into positive, supporting beliefs, which encourage you to take action ( I'm doing this via the Lefkoe Method, which is actually a logotherapeutic method and corelates with the teachings of Victor Frankl (men's search for meaning)

-facing your fears and developing self-confidence

-cultivating presence and charisma

-getting to know thyself (your values, boundaries, principles, goals in life, life mission, what kind of girl you want, etc is the effect of selfawareness/selfconciousness)

-cultivating happiness indirectly by living a meaningful life, cultivating thankfullness, taking responsability to live the life of your dreams and knowing how to deal with your troubles and worries (Stop worrying and start living - Dale Carnegie)

[Mark]

Yea sounds like we're coming from the same place Edmond. I do agree with Matt though. Inner game without action is kind of pointless. That's why I include "behavior" in my chain... Because if you aren't actually going out and doing stuff, you'll never develop new reference experiences and therefore never affect new changes within yourself.

[Edmond Dantès]

Mark Wrote:Yea sounds like we're coming from the same place Edmond. I do agree with Matt though. Inner game without action is kind of pointless. That's why I include "behavior" in my chain... Because if you aren't actually going out and doing stuff, you'll never develop new reference experiences and therefore never affect new changes within yourself.

Yeah sure. I agree 100%. There is no excuse for not taking action. This counts for women, lifestyle and fixing your "inner game". My point is just that you can take action, have positive references and gain by that confidence with women or whatever area you're taking action in, but I've seen, when I was in the community, so many guys who were (and still are) emotional instable, insecure guys with serious psychological problems, who are not willing to face their "inner game" problems and stay with girls, who are low self-esteem, needy and have a negative influence on these guys.

And believe me, this is nothing good or worth chasing.

I just think it should be the goal to become the best possible man you can become with the life you always wanted to live, great friends and girls, who are pretty, funny, trustworthy and of high self-esteem, who support you in a healthy way.

And what I've written above about "inner game" are the experiences and discoveries I discovered and developed over one and a half year of personal development.

[c-minus]

They all are.

If you put 100 women, one at a time, in a private room with a gloryhole, and put an erect penis through that gloryhole, how many women would suck that dick?

I say 100%.

[Tim]

(06-22-2012 07:21 PM)c-minus Wrote:  They all are.

If you put 100 women, one at a time, in a private room with a gloryhole, and put an erect penis through that gloryhole, how many women would suck that dick?

I say 100%.

Obvious troll is obvious.

[Creatine Dreams]

Do they ever get to leave the room?

Is it a black dick? A white dick?

There are a lot of factors that are not being addressed by the above statement.