The Pain Period

[Trickster]

How long does the pain period last, or rather, how long did the pain period last for you? I realize this question is somewhat rhetorical, and I know the real answer is that it lasts as long as you let it last and that you can make it faster by working harder, but I'd like to get some stories of people struggling and finally having that "I have arrived" moment. Right now I'm definitely in a place where I know what the aspects of attraction is and I'm slowly working my way towards getting there but sometimes I feel like I'm just stuck in this middling limbo where I can go out, get a few numbers, go on a few dates that invariably fizzle and sorta come back to zero again. My results haven't changed much, but I have noticed the way I process rejection has changed a little - from totally beating myself up to sorta shrugging it off faster. I know that this is part of a longer process, and that rome wasn't built in a day, but still...

[Mark]

I don't really know how to answer your question, but I'll point out two things:

1) Improvement in just about anything never happens linearly. It usually comes in a series of plateau's and epiphanies.
2) Our self-perception trails reality by months and sometimes years. So even when we do start getting results, our perception of ourselves still lags back when we didn't.

Just a couple things to keep in mind while you're kicking the dirt.

[Chaos]

Mark Wrote:1) Improvement in just about anything never happens linearly. It usually comes in a series of plateau's and epiphanies.

I hate that one... mostly because when you're in a plateau you don't always realize it, until you get out of it. I have this with salsa every couple of months... I reach a point where I see and think "I'm not improving anymore" ... and you get frustrated, then out of nowhere I would make a big jump and feel confy again... grrr

[zkelvin]

I've found that working on multiple aspects of my life simultaneously addresses this problem pretty well. Like Mark said, progress usually is a series of plateaus and epiphanies. But when you're building a business, learning a new language, developing your skills with women, weightlifting, and practicing salsa, you'll always be making substantial progress in at least one. And when one of them stalls for a frustratingly long time, you can take a break from it and focus on other things.

[crazyhorse]

Mark Wrote:I don't really know how to answer your question, but I'll point out two things:

1) Improvement in just about anything never happens linearly. It usually comes in a series of plateau's and epiphanies.
2) Our self-perception trails reality by months and sometimes years. So even when we do start getting results, our perception of ourselves still lags back when we didn't.

Just a couple things to keep in mind while you're kicking the dirt.

could you explain number 2 a bit more? You basically say that although women can respond great to you (f.e. when starting out) you still view yourself as that loser or insecure kid.

Am I right?

[Mark]

Yea basically... You can change and suddenly become an attractive guy and women will respond to you as an attractive guy, but in you're head you're still thinking, "man, if only I were an attractive guy..."

It takes months and sometimes years for your beliefs and self-perception to catch up with reality.

[Aty]

Mark, do you have any suggestions for accelerating the catching-up process?
I'm definitely getting better results over time, but sometimes I have spontaneous inner thoughts which could
be summarized as "I'm not attractive anyway, I'm terrible with women", even though objectively I'm improving and reaching
goals I set myself.

[Mark]

Our self-perception swings a lot based on our emotions... and generally the less confident we are overall, the greater those swings are.

Those swings will always happen, they'll just get smaller over time.

One thing I always tell guys, and have said this forever, is: you're never as bad as you think you are, but you're never as good as you think you are either... I think being mindful of this and being able to catch yourself in the midst of an emotional swing and rationalize why you're being ridiculous is infinitely valuable. Having some close people you trust to talk this stuff out with is incredibly useful as well.

I've been very stressed in business the past few months for a variety of reasons. And I've caught myself in some of these swings, I'll go a few days thinking, "It all sucks, there's no point, I have no idea what I'm doing..." and what's helped me a lot is 1) having a very close friend who is also an entrepreneur and being able to talk openly about this stuff with him, and 2) reminding myself that it's never as bad as I think it is and sitting down and charting out my finances and projected revenue and realizing that things are actually pretty good... that in fact, I'm so upset because I expected them to be BETTER, but I'm still doing pretty damn well.

Our minds can be a huge pain in the ass at times.

[Trickster]

Mark Wrote:Our self-perception swings a lot based on our emotions... and generally the less confident we are overall, the greater those swings are.

Those swings will always happen, they'll just get smaller over time.

This is one thing I've definitely noticed that has changed about me. Before when I got rejected, especially after having gone out on a few dates with a girl I really liked (with good reason or not), I would brood for WEEKS if not MONTHS about what I did wrong and how worthless I was. In away, this still happens to me every time I get rejected, but to a much much much smaller degree than before.

But sometimes I think my results haven't changed much, but when I look back at a couple years ago, I couldn't even fathom going on dates regularly with girls, let along taking most of them back to my apartment for extended makeout sessions. Maybe it's some of our natural inclinations to emphasize the negative over the positive and fail to recognize baby steps that are a part of a much larger process.

[Mark]

Yeah, sometimes progress is so gradual and small that we don't notice it among all of the emotional highs and lows.

I remember distinctly feeling that my "game" didn't improve at all between 2008 and 2010. Yet, in 2010, when I went back and re-read all of my old LR's from 2007 and 2008 I was like embarrassed for myself. I ended up editing them quite a bit.

Same thing happens with my writing. I never feel it improve. And I rarely feel like I write something that is a "breakthrough" piece. But every year, I go back and read some of my stuff from 1-2 years before and invariably always come away thinking it sucks.

[crazyhorse]

This is a very interesting topic.

I always try to remind myself to just keep going. But if you think that way, subconsciously you're always making it seem as if you're doing something badly. Mark's advice is better " it's never as bad as it seems and you're never as good as you think you are".

Talking definetly helps a lot. It's just such a relief.

I had this recently when I received my grades, I've passed all of them and I had a couple of A's, but it wasn't what I was expecting. My parents were off course very happy, but I was feeling a bit down. Think about it the year before I had to take 6 exams + my thesis during the summer haha. Now I don't have to redo exams + I was dealing with porn withdrawal. This last part is a bit shamefull for me, but hey it had to happen sometime and a lot of people have been addicted to something during their lifes (smoking, food, sex...).

But if I look back two years ago (or last year), I can definetly notice a huge change, mostly around the perception concerning my own intelligence. F.E. now I'm working during the school period, which is something that I don't normally do and everyday I'm doing concentration excercises. I'm also reading books on how to write a good curriculum vitae, since next year I'll leave school.

[LostFavor]

(02-14-2012 09:57 PM)Mark Wrote:  Yea basically... You can change and suddenly become an attractive guy and women will respond to you as an attractive guy, but in you're head you're still thinking, "man, if only I were an attractive guy..."

It takes months and sometimes years for your beliefs and self-perception to catch up with reality.

This is an interesting insight.

Perhaps, for some, it is a fear of relapse (much like trying to kick a habit or addiction) that spurs us to distort our self-perception. As though we're running from a demon who is always 2 steps behind and if we stop for a second to breath, the demon will overcome us and we won't have the will to stand again.

Almost like... we're afraid of believing we've improved until we can feel confident that the demon will never overtake us (even though that is an impossibility because we are all human).

I think I'm describing a general fear of failure.

[Trickster]

I just have to say, I wrote this thread a year ago and I feel like a totally different person than from when I wrote it. I guess things do change.

[The Notorious PhD]

@Trickster: I'm interested in hearing how you feel you've changed, both internally and externally. What were some milestones? What made things click? What were the "Aha!" moments? Also, since you're on the "other" side now, how would you answer the same question you asked?

Right now, I'm exactly at the point where you were last year.

[stevehumer]

(02-14-2012 11:39 AM)Chaos Wrote:  

Mark Wrote:1) Improvement in just about anything never happens linearly. It usually comes in a series of plateau's and epiphanies.

I hate that one... mostly because when you're in a plateau you don't always realize it, until you get out of it. I have this with salsa every couple of months... I reach a point where I see and think "I'm not improving anymore" ... and you get frustrated, then out of nowhere I would make a big jump and feel confy again... grrr

The book Mastery by George Leonard helped me with this - especially in relation to my basketball ability.

[Trickster]

(03-11-2013 06:33 PM)The Notorious PhD Wrote:  @Trickster: I'm interested in hearing how you feel you've changed, both internally and externally. What were some milestones? What made things click? What were the "Aha!" moments? Also, since you're on the "other" side now, how would you answer the same question you asked?

Right now, I'm exactly at the point where you were last year.

At the crux of this question is essentially "how is self-esteem built?" And it's built by our decisions. The decisions we make every day - do we give into our impulse to take the "easy way out" or the "path of least resistance" or do we make a choice to do something hard and difficult now. For instance, some people like going to the gym - some people don't. I certainly do not, but every two days I wake up and go lift weights first thing in the morning: not because I think it'll make me hotter to women, but because it makes me feel good about myself, like I accomplished something that belongs to me.

The impulse that I feel every time I go to the gym is, I'm fine, I don't need to go, I don't want to go. But I push through and go. The same thing applies to women - before I would say "well so and so girl is cute, but she's just going to reject me anyways, so it's much easier to stay at home and play videogames." But no, that always ended up making me feel worse about myself than if I had gone out there and gotten shot down - so I push through, and I've gotten rejected, and it's hurt - but it's helped me move towards a world where I'm the kind of man who just goes for it and lets the chips fall where they may.

And, look, I hesitate to say that "I've arrived." I'm constantly dealing with my issues, and some of these issues, particularly my attachment issues, may not ever go away. Mark was right - the process is not linear, and often it is a two steps forward, one step back kind of thing. But you recognize your faults, respect where you've come from and where you are going. Once you take a global view of things, you earn yourself some perspective.

When I was 18, I wouldn't have even dreamed of being able to take a girl on a date, tell her she's beautiful, take her hand back to my apartment for sexy time. The thought terrified me then, and honestly, part of me is still that 18 year old scared little kid. But I've made decisions not to be that person, and followed through on it. The person I've become is much more than that.

[LostFavor]

I just realized how far I bumped this. Read the most recent as february something and forgot this is 13 not 12 LOL.

[bswhunter]

I can't answer you, but I can give you some advice.

Start keeping a diary. My memory usually ends up being biased when I look back at my life, and the mood I am currently in affects my perception aswell. However keeping a diary helped me realise just how much I have overcome. It also helped me realise other things such as how I still am not comfortable opening up.

[Alvar]

(03-31-2013 07:41 AM)bswhunter Wrote:  Start keeping a diary. My memory usually ends up being biased when I look back at my life, and the mood I am currently in affects my perception aswell. However keeping a diary helped me realise just how much I have overcome. It also helped me realise other things such as how I still am not comfortable opening up.

This.

I just got a reminder from google calendar, to check a 8 month doc tracking my habits. It's quite painful to see that I haven't made much progress in most, reason why I tend to avoid paying much attention to these kind of things. But some other habits are now quite automatic and others I have adapted and thus have no need for them.

If you want to evolve proper feedback is one of your best tools. And, as in my case, it can offer you some perspective.

[Borges]

This is a good thread.