"Social proof",useful tool or another unhealthy mindset?

[CharlesB]

It doesn't need that much for someone who suddenly started to interact more with women to realize that the social proof could get him more attention from women. I want to focus specifically to the type of social proof you get after they see you flirting or in a relationship with a very beautiful woman.
as I was trying to improve my results in the past I saw many girls that I was flirting in the past and ended nowhere,( either due to my unattractive behavior or for disinterest from them), that they were starting to get a sudden feeling of attraction, showing me interest,with some kind re-initiation of communication.Usually I didn't know how to handle this,and many times next time the sudden attraction had disappeared.
So my question is the reason that I was paying attention to them was just an insecurity to feel superior or it can be useful sometimes,or if I put in "models" terms can help a disinterest or neutral woman,become more interested in you,or they just showing superficial interest,just to satisfy their ego?
And the latest thing I want to share which made me start this thread is the guilt I have now when the other days I enjoyed ,the obvious attention I was getting ,while I was with my g.f from a girl that I kind of screwed up in the past,but she also played games(flaky etc).

[Vytas80]

I have experienced the similar thing myself. I jokingly call it "the law of pussy multiplication". It means that the more pussy you have in you life, the more attractive you are and you have more options.
Most likely it is collateral effect. On the one hand your behavior becomes more confident and less needy (because you already got pussy so no stress), on the other hand - girls are more attracted to you when they see you in the company of beautiful women ("this guy must be really cool if this babe digs him"). And, yes I think they are genuinely attracted, however this attraction can quickly fade if they sense they have control over your emotions and your behavior.

[Mark]

Most girls (people) don't care or even notice if you're with someone else or who else you talked to or if the bartender gave you a high five or whatever. It's all in your head.

[Chaos]

(03-22-2012 03:09 PM)Mark Wrote:  Most girls (people) don't care or even notice if you're with someone else or who else you talked to or if the bartender gave you a high five or whatever. It's all in your head.

On the traditional sense in a club yeah, social proof is overrated since no girl would actually pay attention to what you're doing unless she's already interested and then that's not social proof working...

On the other hand social proof works miracles in the social circle. If you are flirting with on or several girls in a private party in a house or with people that know you and are somehow paying attention to what you do, you'll trigger more attraction.

For example, if you're in a club with some friends, and you start flirting with some girl in the club, she's laughing and the usual stuff, you'll get an increase in attraction from the other girls in your group (while it won't make any difference to the rest of the girls in the club).

If you're REALLY visible you get good attraction by social proofing some times. For example I do get a "boost" every time I dance salsa (with a partner) in a place where people don't usually dance (a non-salsa club)...

But as Mark says, for the "general" situation, the rest of the girls on the club won't even notice unless the were already into you.

[Mark]

Yes, I always draw the distinction that SOCIAL CIRCLE is amazing. SOCIAL PROOF is overrated.

[baller08]

I don't necessary agree with that. I think social proof is a huge factor. Women by nature are very in-tuned to their surroundings. As you guys know, women's social IQ are far higher than ours.

If I have a crowd around me (guys or girls), the next group I approach will be far more receptive than if I walked in cold and approached cold. I don't think it's the end all be all because you can still lose interest fast if you're just gathering a crowd because you're pee'ing on the floor. But if you have the ability to generate interest you're automatically given a pass so to speak. You have to deal with less testing and the girl(s) are far more receptive of whatever you have to say.

Social proof is why a B-level celebrity can walk into a club and have a lot of credibility even if a woman don't know who he is. If enough girls buzz about him she'll notice.

I don't think it's in your head. People in general are attracted to things that other people are. This is more important for women in particular since they make their selections based on males with higher value than her own. They often will use social proof as an initial barometer of judging a man's value.

[Tim]

I used to think social proof was a big deal. Then over time I realised I'd never seen any results (for myself or anyone else) that could directly be attributed to it.

(03-22-2012 09:30 PM)baller08 Wrote:  Social proof is why a B-level celebrity can walk into a club and have a lot of credibility even if a woman don't know who he is. If enough girls buzz about him she'll notice.

Yeah, if you're literally surrounded by people then other people are going to wonder why. But that's not called social proof, that's called fame. And it's limited to a handful of people in the world. I remember when I was in XS in Vegas and I walked past this dude surrounded by girls, and with all these people taking photos with their camera phones. I was like 'huh, I know that guy. Oh, it's Ne-Yo' and just kept walking. 99% of the people in that club and I didn't give a shit, even though he's very famous. That is the reality of social proof; it looks like a shit load of people are staring, but in truth most people are way too distracted by what they're doing.

[Zac]

I came here to say

Quote:SOCIAL CIRCLE is amazing. SOCIAL PROOF is overrated.

but since it was already said I'm going to quote it and repeat it.

Statistically speaking, 95% of the women I've slept with in my life have been from social circle. Social circles do most of your work for you.

I used to work in the biggest bar in my town. All the owners, bartenders, managers, and waitresses have said hey to me for 2 years since. The owners and managers sometimes buy me drinks. I do not get laid for any of this.

If ANYTHING, it just makes it easier to approach when I say hey to a bartender because it gives me an excuse to pony up next to a few hotties and not pay direct attention to them at first. After I say hi I turn around and boom, "oh hey girls what's up". That in itself is a crutch though. No girl ever seems impressed that I knew a bartender.

Every alcoholic knows everyone that works in a bar. They aren't mac daddy pimps for it.

[Chaos]

And about if it is an unhealthy mindset I would say it is if you do it (as with everything) for the wrong reasons.

You have "social proof" because you are a really social guy and just speaks to everybody, guy, girl, fat, hot... then ok. You talk to everyone for the sole purpose of gaining social proof and having more attraction from the ladies... then it's an unhealthy mindset because a) you don't really need it and b) it doesn't really matter that much.

[Mark]

(03-22-2012 09:30 PM)baller08 Wrote:  I don't necessary agree with that. I think social proof is a huge factor. Women by nature are very in-tuned to their surroundings. As you guys know, women's social IQ are far higher than ours.

If I have a crowd around me (guys or girls), the next group I approach will be far more receptive than if I walked in cold and approached cold. I don't think it's the end all be all because you can still lose interest fast if you're just gathering a crowd because you're pee'ing on the floor. But if you have the ability to generate interest you're automatically given a pass so to speak. You have to deal with less testing and the girl(s) are far more receptive of whatever you have to say.

Social proof is why a B-level celebrity can walk into a club and have a lot of credibility even if a woman don't know who he is. If enough girls buzz about him she'll notice.

I don't think it's in your head. People in general are attracted to things that other people are. This is more important for women in particular since they make their selections based on males with higher value than her own. They often will use social proof as an initial barometer of judging a man's value.

Disagree. You think girls really care who you're talking to? They don't know who you're talking to. It could be your sister for all they know. As for women having higher social IQ's, that doesn't make them super human, and it doesn't mean they're monitoring who ever single guy in the bar is talking to at any given time. Most people are far too concerned about what they're doing or their friends to even notice who you're talking to, much less be attracted by it.

Going from a big group of people and having the next set open easily is because being in a big group of people pumps your state and gives you social confidence.

Can't tell you how many guys I've been out with who run around approaching 10-15 people in order to get their "social proof going," and nothing every happens with any of them. No one ever asks, "How do you know everyone here?" No one cares that he just got a free drink from the bartender. No one asks how he knows the guys sitting at the VIP table. It's just not on people's radar.

Let me ask you, last time you were in a club, how many guys did the third most attractive girl talk to that night?

...
...
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Yeah, no clue. You probably don't even remember who the third cutest girl was. Or even the first cutest girl. Why? Because you were worried about yourself and who you were talking to. It's human nature.

I've sat at enough VIP tables to tell you that social proof does very little for your cold approach chances. It's a nice placebo to get guys amped up to talk to a lot of people. That's it.

There have been a number of nights where I've gone out solo, sat at the bar by myself, not talked to anyone, had a couple drinks, and after an hour saw a hot girl and talked to her. Results are more or less exactly the same as if I'm out with a bunch of friends.

It's all in your head man!

[baller08]

Asking me who the 3rd most attractive girl was at a bar last week has no relevence. Just like asking a girl a week later who was the most attractive guy.

Now when its at the moment men and women don't operate on the same level. We don't filter base on a woman's social value.

I'm not sure how you can say social proof is in your head, Mark. Have I gone out and successfully cold approach 1 girl without talking to anyone else first? Sure, many times. But that doesn't mean social proof isn't a big factor. One doesn't negate the other. You can call it "fame" but it trips essentially the same triggers for women, only fame does it at a higher degree.

The side effects of social proof amps up social confidence for guys who need that running start. That's fine if that works. However,all things being equal you can't say that if you walk in with 2 pretty girls vs you walking in by yourself that women in general don't open up eaiser.

Is there a point where a man can get to in that whether he has social proof or not his success rate is about the same? Is there a point where a man can internalize his strength and comfort with women where he exudes social proof without anyone else? Definitely and that is a goal of your work and this site. But to say this piece of female social dynamics isn't valid is irresponsible and a lot of men need this not only as a tool to learn but also an important stepping stone to where you want them to eventually be.

[Mark]

Quote:However,all things being equal you can't say that if you walk in with 2 pretty girls vs you walking in by yourself that women in general don't open up eaiser.

See, I would say that they don't open up easier. At least in my experience it's always felt basically the same.

You make good points, but still I'd argue that even if it is having an effect, that effect is so miniscule compared to things like confidence, strong conversation, fun banter, etc., that it's not really worth worrying about.

[CharlesB]

Despite your interesting argument, I want to clarify that my question intended to focus mostly to a kind of jealous power ,(which in books referred usually as "social proof").
And ok maybe it won't help that much to the ones that don't know you.But for the women you already know?
Let's assume that you are in a social circle,a college ,a job or something like a language class.assume that you meet these people outside of your work.Until proven otherwise the women will consider you a normal guy.
If they see you with these beautiful women that you are dating wouldn't their behavior change towards you?
Again,it's a genuine question,I am not sure,I just making assumptions.It's something that to say for sure requires more experience,because it's not the same the surface interest you get ,with the real intentions to move on the things with you.

[Mark]

Within a social circle, social proof can be very powerful. Outside of a social circle, it's more or less pointless.

[Tim]

(03-23-2012 07:41 AM)CharlesB Wrote:  Despite your interesting argument, I want to clarify that my question intended to focus mostly to a kind of jealous power ,(which in books referred usually as "social proof").

If they see you with these beautiful women that you are dating wouldn't their behavior change towards you?

The word jealous was a real red flag for me here. If you're thinking about making other women jealous or imagining a scenario where other women start flirting with you when they see you with another hot woman then I'd suggest this might be your ego enjoying the idea of being a bit of a player. I don't want to project too much onto you, so I'm not going to say that this is the case, just to be careful when you start fantasizing about these scenarios that make you look really good in front of other people or whatever.

[CharlesB]

[/quote]

The word jealous was a real red flag for me here. If you're thinking about making other women jealous or imagining a scenario where other women start flirting with you when they see you with another hot woman then I'd suggest this might be your ego enjoying the idea of being a bit of a player. I don't want to project too much onto you, so I'm not going to say that this is the case, just to be careful when you start fantasizing about these scenarios that make you look really good in front of other people or whatever.
[/quote]
.That's why the question is formed in this way on the title.I know one part of this mindset is caused by insecurity,and to boost my ego.This of course was amplified by things I read in the past from P.U.My intention is to contradict it with evidence and to put it out of my mind,so it wont be accepted when popped up.
I know also there is a more healthy form of jealousy which I don't want to analyse ,because I know that my mind will take me back to the old toxic pua theories(and insecurities)
And since one week before was the World poetry day here is a (famous)relevant poem:

IF.....

IF you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:
If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: 'Hold on!'

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
' Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch,
if neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

[Mark]

Charles: small sidenote... can you PLEASE put spaces after your periods and commas? It's screwing with my eyes when I read your posts.

[Zac]

That is one of my favorite poems.