So how does one get rid of neediness?

[Alvar]

I think I may be coming full circle with some of my old behaviours. I was anticipating having a girl over at my place and, during the weekend, I started thinking whether I wanted to clear the house for her or not. I came to the conclusion that I do not mind what she thinks but I want her to feel that I care for her.

For the last 2 years I do not recall cleaning it for a girl even once (although I do clean regularly.) Girls probably noticed that and it was congruent with my "don't give a toss" attitude. Before that I would clean the house like a maniac if a girl would be coming over.
When I was at this girl's place the house was tidy and clean, she had lit candles for us. So this time I cleaned, I guess I do care. And, as it happened, we couldn't make it here because of logistics, but I do not feel at all disappointed for having cleared the house.


Mark is right, it is all in the book. Even the fake-alpha route. But do we need it?

[Halo Effect]

Do we need what? (the book, fake alpha route, or something else?)

[Alvar]

The fake alpha route, to go out of character for a period, act like we don't care. I think Mark has said that we don't need to go through that but how many of you guys made the transition without from "nice guy" to "good guy" without going through a "prick" phase?


Btw, I just saw this advertised somewhere else, I'm currently watching it.


[video=youtube;vBv907saeTw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBv907saeTw[/video]

[SeXyBaCk]

I don't know about your housekeeping but tidying up before people come over is kinda what one does. I don't have that problem cause I'm a neatfreak to begin with but if I wasn't...yeah, I'd be tidying up, you have to make it somewhat bearable for the ladies. By labling that as whoring your own self out and being needy.. well then you've ventured too far into the realm of self analysing for my taste. Again that whole PUA attitude of never buy dinner never offer drinks don't go out of your way is the adverse reaction of someone who was once very needy and is overcompensating in the other direction, until he finds his balance. Which goes in sync with what you called the jerk phase. Trying too hard to fix something can yield unwanted extreme results.

That said, I'd like to regard my past prick behaviour as a period of transition while bettering myself, but I think I was just being an ignorant prick acting on my every whim being unaware of other peoples feelings due to immaturity.

Not allowing yourself any kind of neediness, you're stopping yourself from experiencing a vast array of normal human emotions.

[Leo]

I agree.

[Alvar]

Quote:Not allowing yourself any kind of neediness, you're stopping yourself from experiencing a vast array of normal human emotions.

That is so true. It's just about allowing ourseves to be a normal human being.

[Lycan]

SeXyBaCk Wrote:I don't know about your housekeeping but tidying up before people come over is kinda what one does. I don't have that problem cause I'm a neatfreak to begin with but if I wasn't...yeah, I'd be tidying up, you have to make it somewhat bearable for the ladies. By labling that as whoring your own self out and being needy.. well then you've ventured too far into the realm of self analysing for my taste. Again that whole PUA attitude of never buy dinner never offer drinks don't go out of your way is the adverse reaction of someone who was once very needy and is overcompensating in the other direction, until he finds his balance. Which goes in sync with what you called the jerk phase. Trying too hard to fix something can yield unwanted extreme results.

Cleaning your house before someone comes over is
a) needy if you never clean and believe that your house is comfortable as it is ( you just do it because you dont want people to think that you are untidy)
b) not needy if your a self-proclaimed neatfreak, or expect other people to clean their houses before you come over ( you do it because you think its the right thing to do)
... thats how i understood it

[Leo]

There are social norms that I expect from a girl to accomplish, I don't think she's needy if she does so. For example: taking a shower, brushing her teeth, CLEANING HER HOUSE, etc. Just like in this forum guys spend an incredible amount of time talking about fitness and fashion because we want to have a good impresion coming from the girl. If I meet a girl that doesn't bathe often I can respect her decision, but I don't want to be with her. Yes, we are here learning how to "impress" girls. I think Mark is talking about internal values, how your perception of yourself shouldn't be altered based in how a girl reacts when interacting with you. If you don't want to take care of yourself because of your own conviction, go ahead; but I doubt you are gonna get attention from a lot of girls. Why do you think girls go to the gym, spend a lot of money in how they dress, make up, hair products, etc? 'Cause they want to create a good impression on us. Why you think women think so much about diets? They want to look good to us and I appreciate that :o

[SeXyBaCk]

Um.. the point i was making was that - while attraction might be an ancient basic instinct, trust me, disgust and repulsion are even more basic. If someone comes into your bathroom and they're repulsed, they're not going to have sex with you within the next couple of hours at least, no matter what stud you might be.

Sure if your house is alright but you get all freaked out over cleaning it before your date comes over you're overextending yourself but there's nothing wrong with making a bit of an effort. I mean you shower, dress and put on fresh clothes before going to a date, that's not needy, that's just getting ready. and if you have trash lying around your place, your place needs 'getting ready'.

Equally I'm not attracted to any woman who lets herself slip and doesn't look her natural best at most given times. I put slob behaviour under 'lack of ambition and drive'. I don't expect perfect make up, dressed to kill and fancy hair, but if you can't muster the energy to wash your face and brush your hair in the morning you're not for me. My guess is most women feel the same way.

Again, you gotta differ between what is needy and ultimately counterproductive and what is considered normal behaviour. If you think a woman should and will accept you for better or for worse while you're living in a total dump and making no effort to escape/improve...think again. That's a big turn off.

[Alvar]

Come on guys, I do keep my house clean. I may not be a neatfreak but I do regularly tidy up. It was just an example of how I used to manage the girls expectations before (so that the girl would approve of me) instead of approving of me first, and how I can do the same now just because I care. I'm just finding out that I can invest in the girl, show her that I do care for her, enjoy it and not be needy. Or if I am, accept it and grow. There could be other examples of behaviours that I dropped and that I am already picking up again.

Quote:Just like in this forum guys spend an incredible amount of time talking about fitness and fashion because we want to have a good impression coming from the girl.

Of course we want to cause a good impression. But if that is the only reason you do it you'll only connect with those girls that put up make up and go to the gym so that they can hook a guy. And as soon as they feel safe they put on 5 kilos and stop making an effort.
If you go to the gym you should do it because it stands for who you are, someone who cares and invests in itself, his body and health and enjoys pushings his own limits.
If your main goal is only to manage others impressions it will shine through.

[Leo]

Or you do it because of both reasons. We all want some aproval from people, we all want some validation. I think it is inevitable. It gets crazy when you care way too much about somebody else's opinion rather than your own opinion about yourself. But we live in a society, with other people around us.

P.S.: Go clean your room!!!!

[Mark]

Yes, we all NEED validation from others. We all NEED needy behaviors at times.

The key is to be less needy than she is. This is why PUA´s or regular guys can still be incredibly needy and get girls sometimes because they match up with women of similar or greater neediness. But the needier you are, the more you limit your options and the less emotionally stable and gratifying your options will be. Neediness itself is not unattractive, being MORE needy than the girl you´re interacting with absolutely is.

And no, the fake alpha route is not necessary but it works for some (it worked for me). The purpose of my book is to promote a quicker and more honest route.

This is ALL covered in the book guys. Re-read chapters 2-4.

[James]

But as men, aren't we usually putting more effort (neediness) in almost every step: approaching, getting number, asking for date, making the move etc. So even here, aren't we already more needy than she is? This is what's confusing me recently. I know a lot of girls like the man to make the move/decisions so they will wait till you do something...which kind of forces you to put in more effor than her.

Or I guess you can act so non needy that she starts chasing you but that seems complicated.

[Trickster]

James Wrote:But as men, aren't we usually putting more effort (neediness) in almost every step: approaching, getting number, asking for date, making the move etc. So even here, aren't we already more needy than she is? This is what's confusing me recently. I know a lot of girls like the man to make the move/decisions so they will wait till you do something...which kind of forces you to put in more effor than her.

Or I guess you can act so non needy that she starts chasing you but that seems complicated.

There's an difference between wanting something and needing something. Needing something is outcome dependent - it's like, if I don't have it, I'm not going to take it well. Wanting something is, I want this particular thing, but if I don't get it, hey, my life goes on. It might be disappointing, but it is not devastating. I think that's an important distinction.

[Mark]

Yes... in my book I talk about taking action unconditionally. For instance... a needy way of approaching = coming up with a really cool line so she'll like you and practicing tactics to win her over. Your actions are not unconditional. You're performing them on the condition that they get her to like you.

Acting unconditionally is like giving a gift. It's like, "Oh, she's pretty, I'm going to go tell her." And if she doesn't want your gift, then so be it. No harm done. You're approaching without looking for anything in return. You have no expectations for her to like you or even acknowledge you. That is non-needy way of approaching.

Again, this is all covered in the book.

[David85]

Hey Mark... Is this stuff covered in your book? haha... This thread is awesome. Definitely gonna reread 2-4.

[Mark]

yes it is

[Thor]

I do dont have an answer to your question however I want to share with you my thoughts as to where my neediness stemmed from as I am going through a few realizations about myself.

When I joined the pickup community I was led to believe I could get hot girls by using one or more tactics. I came from a point of a man in my 40's with no experience with women apart from paid sex.

I was blinded by the wing men who I hungout with. "We only chat up hot girls" or "I only chatup HB9s". Obviously when you hangout with guys like this you are made to believe thats what they say must be correct. After all they are part of a community a group of men with super powers who have the ability to charm and seduce any woman. How wrong I was !

I would hangout with the community guys hitting on the hotest girls. Everytime I got a number or got a smile from the girl. My wing man would say "wow your making progress". Months and months went by. I kept hitting on the super hot looking girls. Getting numbers, getting smiles but no dates no lays.

Then deep down I felt the neediness hit men. What the fuck was going on ? I getting all these numbers and smiles yet no dates, no makeouts no lays !!.

The worst thing was that I was disregarding women who took a liking to me. They were not super hot but they were still attractive, but of course I did what the community said. Chase super hot girls dont go for anything else.

What was the result of this ? frustration after spending hours cold approaching resulting in neediness, anger towards women.

Right now I have taken a step back from spending hours on the street cold approaching. I talk to 3 girls a day that I fancy it could be the way the girl smiles, it could be her long flowing hair I look at her and imagine her sucking my cock and her long hair stroking my genitals and think oh wow thats the girl I want to talk to.

I have learned that you gotto have realistic beliefs. There is no way in hell I am ever gonna click with a 21 year party girl given the fact I am nearly 46 years old but I could probably click with a girl in her mid twenties to thirties who loves hiking, travelling and science fiction. I hope this all makes sense apologies in advance for the poor grammar I am typing this message on my blackberry whilst waiting for a train with lots of distractions.

[Creatine Dreams]

Great post, Thor. And just as a sidenote, I would way rather spend time with a girl who loves hiking, travelling and science fiction.

Regarding your point about realistic beliefs, I think that is very true that you need to have realistic expectations. And correct me if I am wrong but it seems that life and experience helps attune you to just how realistic those beliefs are.

[Thor]

Totally mate, realistic beliefs are crucial. I mean if I was to believe that I could jump of a building and fly that would be totally insane .

When man first wanted to learn how to fly. He tried everything under the sun to fly like building wings on his arms and jumping of buildings and shit. It eventually dawned on him that he couldnt. So what did he do ? he built a machine that allowed him to fly.

So my point is understand your limitations and set realistic beliefs based on your limitations.

(05-27-2012 07:18 PM)Creatine Dreams Wrote:  Great post, Thor. And just as a sidenote, I would way rather spend time with a girl who loves hiking, travelling and science fiction.

Regarding your point about realistic beliefs, I think that is very true that you need to have realistic expectations. And correct me if I am wrong but it seems that life and experience helps attune you to just how realistic those beliefs are.