Shouldn't the point of "game" or "PUA" be to pick up all kinds of women? (my log)

[Halo Effect]

Reesays, would you be willing to post a picture of yourself of how you look when you do these approaches? You can black out your eyes or whatever. These responses are not normal.

[Chaos]

I agree with Halo, those responses are not normal. Nonetheless they happen from time to time. I had one girl come to me once to reject me before I even had a chance to approach her, I maintained eye contact with her for about 10 seconds and she came to me to tell me to stop looking at her... lol. Usually that kind of harsh reactions has nothing to do with you AT ALL, I think that's people (girls in this case) which need to get someone else down to feel validated and worth... usually these are girls which have a major self esteem problem and can only deal with it by trying to impose herself over someone else.

That's going to happen. Moreover, I think that, while there's something you're doing wrong when you approach given the amount of harsh rejections you're having, some polite or harsh rejections will ALWAYS happen. You're bothering girls in a Starbucks... some of them might not want company right now, some of them will be intimidated, some of them will be married and yeah, some of them will not like brown guys. Overall though you should be getting consistent polite responses, which also means polite rejections, but the key word is "polite". Is really unnatural for anyone to get out of the social conventions to reject you, as Marks has pointed out in some article, we don't enjoy rejecting people, even less harshly, so if you get an inordinate amount of harsh rejections you must be doing something wrong, not in what you're saying but in how you're saying it.

I know most pickup advice is contrary to this but I would suggest to start every interaction with an "excuse me" and a friendly smile and test if that soften the reactions you get, specially the number of harsh rejections. I'm not suggesting you try to work something out from there, just test if that gets you farther, on average, than your usual approach style.

[Halo Effect]

Chaos Wrote:I agree with Halo, those responses are not normal. Nonetheless they happen from time to time. I had one girl come to me once to reject me before I even had a chance to approach her, I maintained eye contact with her for about 10 seconds and she came to me to tell me to stop looking at her... lol. Usually that kind of harsh reactions has nothing to do with you AT ALL, I think that's people (girls in this case) which need to get someone else down to feel validated and worth... usually these are girls which have a major self esteem problem and can only deal with it by trying to impose herself over someone else.
...
I know most pickup advice is contrary to this but I would suggest to start every interaction with an "excuse me" and a friendly smile and test if that soften the reactions you get, specially the number of harsh rejections. I'm not suggesting you try to work something out from there, just test if that gets you farther, on average, than your usual approach style.

Yes, rejections happen, but if he keeps getting these harsh rejection with this frequency, something is up. It would be an easy fix if it turns out his fashion and hygiene and body language are very unattractive, because that's easy to fix, and they could be responsible for harsh rejections. That's why I ask for a picture.

It's very possible, though, that you aren't very calibrated when you approach, Reesays. Mark says there are generally two types of men in this community: men who are pretty socially aware and socially skilled but who are held back by anxiety, and men who are not socially calibrated, but who don't have that much anxiety. You seem to be the second type.

It's very important to understand that cold approaching girls in public is NOT the norm. In fact, it's pretty weird. You can reduce awkwardness and show social awareness to a girl by acknowledging this, like Mark teaches. When you approach, don't just stand there and say "Hi". This is awkward! In stead, you first say something like "Hi, this is pretty random, ..." (you acknowledge that you are doing something that is not very normal), then you say something like "but I think you're cute and I just had to say hi" (it's her cuteness that made you break this norm. A big compliment for her!). Do all this with a friendly smile on your face. Note that this can STILL be awkward and embarassing for her. Now you stick out your hand and hold calm eye contact while you shake her hand and introduce yourself. After this you can do whatever small talk or observation that seems appropriate. At this point, it's still very important to be socially aware. Adjust to the situation and her reaction.

[shadow]

Great job getting out there!

Do the following:

1) As Halo said, post a pic. The first thing that popped into my head when the girl said "I have my standards" was how you look.
2) Approach 10 more white women and post the results
3) Approach 10 non-white women and post the results

Remember, even with the black girl, she wanted you to leave at first. So it could be something you are doing/looking like. If the results of (2) and (3) are vastly different, perhaps you are right and your area is not going to be accepting of you. Try and approach girls of similar attractiveness levels in (2) and (3) though. If you approach a ghetto chick in (3) and a millionaire chick in (2), the experiment is skewed. Also remember this - in the modern world economic status matters way more than race.

[Reesays]

eh, this is all I got, from about a year back, I am a bit skinnier now

edit: pic temporarily removed for a while, those who needed to see how I look like did, if you want to still see it I will put it back up when I come back from barnes and nobles today

[Chaos]

Ok, I don't see anything wrong with you in that photo... I don't like you dressing style too much (unbutton your shirt, don't ever wear it like that unless you're wearing a tie) but I've seen a lot of people dress far worse... Anyway I don't think that's the reason you're getting harsh rejections. Quite frankly from the pure physical point of view you should be perfectly fine with girls so maybe it has something to do with your body language or voice tonality. Anyway Ressays, just keep pushing, if you're pushing like you're describing here you'll eventually get some positive reactions that will help you...

And remember, quite honestly, there's nothing wrong with you from what I can tell... surely you seem a little low on self-esteem and a little insecure about yourself, but you keep pushing yourself and that will take you farther than any other thing you might do. Try to change how you approach, don't try to get anything from the girls right now except for a polite conversation, don't think on getting her number (but do ask if you think she is willing to give it to you), just go, approach with an excuse me, then without it, make some situational comment, give her a straight compliment (I just thought you were nice and had to come to met you)... try different things, see what works and what doesn't...

If you want to improve your style I recommend you buy the book, it's just great... I know I sound like I'm marketing here for Mark, but I can't even start to describe how great it is.

[Edmond Dantès]

Yeah. See it the same way as Chaos.

And I'd like to add that your shirt and your trousers are a few sizes too big. Oh and vertical stripes make you look even more skinnier. Improve your fashion (and dress to your personality), start to workout, get a cool haircut and try other glasses or lenses. This will boost your looks (and your confidence as a result of that) a few levels.

http://www.kinowear.com/blog/science-of-style-stage-1
http://www.thesartorialist.com (so you get a taste of what well dressed men look like)
http://scoobysworkshop.com

[Reesays]

so basically, you guys are saying my looks are actually favorable?

btw, doing more approaches today, AT BARNES AND NOBLES

will let you know of the results soon

[Edmond Dantès]

Your physical looks are normal, nothing to worry about.

And definitely not an excuse for you not taking action or the rejections you get. Men's looks are based on physical features, fitness, fashion and grooming. The last three can be improved, so maximize them.

[Reesays]

Edmond Dantès Wrote:Your physical looks are normal, nothing to worry about.

And definitely not an excuse for you not taking action or the rejections you get. Men's looks are based on physical features, fitness, fashion and grooming. The last three can be improved, so maximize them.

gonna sound like a woman here but for the physical features part, what can you or maybe a girl you know in real life say about them?

[Chaos]

Well, just to boost you confidence a little, you have a kind face, you have a good set of hair and you have a good smile (fake in the photo, but almost every smile is fake in a self taken picture... in mine they appear fake in almost every picture )...

I actually think you can make the hair and the glasses work, they give you an appearance of "tidiness" that can work to your advantage... you just have to make it contrast with the way you're dressed. I would suggest a light grey t-shirt, a blazer and a raw jeans with black shoes. Safe bet, the casualness of the hair will contrast with the blazer without being overdone by wearing jeans and t-shirt. The glasses will show that you have style but you're not trying to hard... you just happen to dress nice without putting too much effort into it and without giving up your previous style.

Just make sure everything fits correctly.

[Reesays]

Alright, did about 4 approaches today. 2 at Barnes and Nobles and 2 at a different Starbucks. I did them after I finished all of my work for school. My last post for today, have to finish one more assignment due tuesday but assigned at 8 PM today lol (online and email).

Anyways

Approach 1:

Hispanic woman, above average looking. I made a comment about the music playing, I said "well, this is gonna help me focus!", she laughed and said "ya not really study music they are playing".
Me: you come here to study?
her: No, just spend some time
Me: I know, not a lot to do in this town right?
her: I know! I mean really!!!
Me: Change of pace for a guy like me who has been all over
her: Ya I am not from around here either
Me: So where are you from?
her: California
Me: Southern or Northern?
her: Southern! you know!
Me: Ya, rich kids, movie stars, everyone looks like a model, I know indeed
her: Oh stop!
Me: Oh really? Am I wrong now?
Her: -smiles at me- you are a funny guy
Me: you are an interesting person, it would suck if this was our only time meeting each other, wanna stay in touch?
her: slow down there casanova, I come here often, we will stay in touch that way =)
me: even better
Her: winks and walks away

Approach 2:

Average looking redhead

Me: smiled at her
her: smiled right back
Me: happy to be here huh
Her: ya it is peaceful
me: even more so than my school library
her: same here right!
me: if only the music
her: no, the music adds to it
me: so you can read despite the music and stuff?

just pointless conversation but I did manage to get her number, she is a private school girl who is originally from california but moved out here a year ago

AND NOW for the starbucks

Approach 3:

Average looking blonde

me: I smile at her
her: "ummm hi there!"
me: hay
I end up sitting down away from her and she talks to me a few minutes later.

Told me she comes there often, did not get a number but we did have introductions.

Approach 4:

Above average looking Black girl

Me: Darn PCs, always slow to start (after looking at her and smiling)
her: ya that is why I use a mac
Me: well some of us are still in the stone age, sorry about that
her: Oh I forgive you

Enemy appears!

Brunette from yesterday was there and said out loud.

"Everyone give it up for Mr Casanova, he tried the same crap on me yesterday and here he is trying to gain another victim".

Black girl looked at me in shock and then went back to her work. CHANCE squashed! =(

[shadow]

Great job man. I'm proud of you for getting out there. As you can see, the responses are all over the place. Some girls liked you, some didn't and that's fine. Keep pushing. These results should tell you that hooking up with a white chick is definitely possible for you (blonde and redhead above).

As for the brunette, I'm actually starting to think she likes you. I know it's hard to believe. But it's very well possible. If you feel up to it, next time you see her, walk up to her and talk to her and see what happens. It will help if you can be a bit of a hardass with this chick.

[Reesays]

well see, with White women, here is the thing

the really nerdy ones (not outstandingly good looking or even average looking, bad hygiene too) I tend to do okay with but I do not like them too much

the only other ones I do good with are the ones from bluer states (California and stuff) and foreign ones (European)

problem?

Most of the girls in my area = upper middle class southern girls, sorority type southern girls, and those types, they ONLY date White guys

then you have the very nerdy kind and believe me, I LOVE NERDY GIRLS but the ones I run into have bad hygiene

[Chaos]

Reesay, I'm gonna try to turn around what you say, maybe you're confusing cause and effect:

This is what you see:

Quote:Cause: She's "upper middle class southern girls, sorority type southern girls, and those types, they ONLY date White guys"

Effect: You get rejected. You reinforce your believe

This is what's probably happening:

Quote:Cause1: She's "upper middle class southern girls, sorority type southern girls.

Effect / Cause2: You think she ONLY dates White guys.

Effect / Cause3: You approach predisposed to a rejection, half-expecting a rejection because that's mostly what you've gotten in the past. As a result your approach is awkward and weird.

Effect: You get rejected. You reinforce Cause (when in fact the actual cause for the rejection was Cause 3).

You're subconsciously ignoring what's happening between the lines, which is what actually gets you rejected.

This is the same pattern that use to happen (and still happens) to me a lot of times:

Quote:Cause: I approach a medium looking girl.

Effect: Everything goes fine I get her number.

Cause: I approach a hot looking girl.

Effect: I get rejected.

Conclusion. Hot girls are out of my league.

What's actually happen though is:

Quote:Cause: I approach a medium looking girl.

Effect: I confidently approach and have a conversation with her, I think I have a lot to offer and she's lucky for having my interest. I get her number.

Cause: I approach a hot girl.

Effect: I become nervous, she's SO HOT!! I awkwardly approach and say hello, I try to thing of something to say... I'm really nervous and a little afraid of screwing up. I get rejected.

Real Conclusion: I behave differently when I approach one girl and the other. My reactions are different, my approach is poorer with the hot girl and I lose my confidence... that's WHY I get rejected.

Notice that it doesn't have to be about race or looks. It can be about thinking women are easier to hook up with if they are foreign, or if they are blonde, or if they are short (since I'm short myself that's a limiting believe that hits me hard actually). The thing is, that kind of thinking usually ends up being a self fulfilling prophecy because it changes your behavior and then CAUSES the outcome.

[Mark]

Reesays Wrote:well see, with White women, here is the thing

If you don't stop with your racist bullshit, you will be banned. End of story.

I'm getting the feeling that you're twice as racist as most of these girls you're approaching. If I was a white girl, and some Indian guy approached me who basically assumed I was racist before even talking to me, why the hell would I ever give him a chance?

[Matt T]

I agree with Chaos, a "false positive" perception of racism can really fuck you up. Even in areas completely unrelated to pickup.


Just earlier today, I got up, feeling sick and having an annoying neck ache from sleeping the wrong way or something. So I wasn't paying much attention to what I was doing, and I put my gloves in an (unfortunately unsecured) jacket pocket. I put on my mp3 player and rode my bike to Biochem.

Along the way, 2 girls in a car called out something at me (I couldn't tell because of my mp3 player). I dismissed it as racist jeering, shook my head, and continued on my way.

When I arrived in class, I realized that I was missing one of my gloves. I immediately thought that I had left one in the house. It was only after about a minute of thinking that I realized that maybe the girls had attempted to notify me of my missing glove that had fallen out of my jacket.

After class, I retraced my route down 16th and my glove was in plain sight on the side of the road. I was astonished, both that those girls would do something like that for a stranger, and that my first thought had been to assume that they were expressing racism.

[shadow]

Is it just me or do an extraordinarily large amount of Indian (and Asian - they probably don't verbalize it as much) guys have a serious inferiority complex which they keep blaming on others as racism? I'm really curious as to why this is. Especially given these guys were basically born and raised here.

(03-05-2012 06:16 PM)Mark Wrote:  

Reesays Wrote:well see, with White women, here is the thing

If you don't stop with your racist bullshit, you will be banned. End of story.

I'm getting the feeling that you're twice as racist as most of these girls you're approaching. If I was a white girl, and some Indian guy approached me who basically assumed I was racist before even talking to me, why the hell would I ever give him a chance?

[Matt T]

Quote:Is it just me or do an extraordinarily large amount of Indian (and Asian - they probably don't verbalize it as much) guys have a serious inferiority complex which they keep blaming on others as racism? I'm really curious as to why this is. Especially given these guys were basically born and raised here.

Definitely Asians do the same, just spend some time on bb.com.

Anyways, It has to do with the PUA having a poor relationship with his bicultural lifestyle. Instead of resolving his issues, he takes the easy route: ignoring them and blaming his race/parents.

That's my hypothesis, at least.

[SeXyBaCk]

Reesays, haven't you noticed man? You're the only person here constantly talking about race. This isn't about white girls being racist, you're the racist attributing certain characteristics to a skin tone. You need to accept this about yourself, and then let go of it.

My sister is married to an indian bloke, and she's blonde and hot (it's my sister after all). What's more, I've lived in Europe most of my life, there's no such things as brown dudes in my reckoning. I've not come across people considering Indians to have a different skin colour, they're just more tanned than us caucasians. Frankly, a lot of this is in your head. And you have to watch what you say to women...that flowery stuff in one of your first posts, that's downright creepy. Now, what are you trying to achive? Get over axiety talking to strangers? Not really right? Making friends, meeting people. Okay, how about you slow down and spend more time talking to one individual than trying to get 10 phone numbers over the course of an hour. Women realise what you're doing right away, so slow down.

You moved from girl to girl, you should have asked one of those which were receptive to just go and grab a coffee close by. It's as simple as that. If the girl who was making fun of you bumps into you again, you should say she needs to come on a date with you and have lots of fun, if she says no, politely request her not speak to or approach you anymore.

Finally not sure what you mean by bad hygiene. Not sure I want to know in detail. If you mean girls who aren't making the best of what they could with what is given to them by nature ...as in clothing looks make up, that can be easily changed. Girls go all out if you indicate you want them to look better to earn your attention.

Finally, I think you need to join some clubs and activities on campus. Go to the blackboard, check out what their is, even if it doesn't interest you that much or you're not that excited about it. Sometimes they have get to know the city tour, or a tour of the local art museum or whatever, just get on that stuff, you'll instantly expand your social cycle.

Finally negative attitude and lack of confidence. You're oozing both. You're constantly looking for rational excuses. Not everyone in this world is going to love us. It's just part of life. it's really an experience one should make as an early teenager or even before, when you position yourself amongst other kids and have first arguments/fights. It's just part of life.

Confidence is harder to come by. But you're already having success. Some girls are more than willing to talk to you. They're not (all) man eaters. At least a basic level of confidence will come to you as you go.

[Reesays]

(03-05-2012 06:16 PM)Mark Wrote:  

Reesays Wrote:well see, with White women, here is the thing

If you don't stop with your racist bullshit, you will be banned. End of story.

I'm getting the feeling that you're twice as racist as most of these girls you're approaching. If I was a white girl, and some Indian guy approached me who basically assumed I was racist before even talking to me, why the hell would I ever give him a chance?

Sure, got it boss. Anyways, I wasn't going by race but rather by groups. Sorority and such girls are hard to crack and so are the upper middle class kind but okay, enough of that from me. But I do still include race in my approaches right?

btw, why did you switch this to the roosh v forum format?

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(03-06-2012 07:31 AM)Matt T Wrote:  

Quote:Is it just me or do an extraordinarily large amount of Indian (and Asian - they probably don't verbalize it as much) guys have a serious inferiority complex which they keep blaming on others as racism? I'm really curious as to why this is. Especially given these guys were basically born and raised here.

Definitely Asians do the same, just spend some time on bb.com.

Anyways, It has to do with the PUA having a poor relationship with his bicultural lifestyle. Instead of resolving his issues, he takes the easy route: ignoring them and blaming his race/parents.

That's my hypothesis, at least.

See, I ALWAYS wondered that. I used to think I was ugly, undesirable, maybe I wore the wrong clothes, maybe I wasn't with the popular kids etc. Yet when I started giving chemistry advice on yahoo answers I ventured off on that site and nearly every day it would be flooded with questions about Asian men and dating and Indian men as well.

I googled it out of curiosity and threads upon threads, surveys upon surveys came out saying how apparently it is a bad thing. For a while a laid low on it but then I read some TIME magazine issue on OkCupid and race. Apparently something came up about Indian men being "least replied" to and I went on to online forums to inspect more.

What I think REALLY happens is this.

White guys have their Brad Pitts and thousands of other actors to represent them. Black guys have Denzel Washington and many others. Latinos have Enrique and Mario Lopez and many others. Indians and Asians, we have our sprinkles but usually it is the guy off of the Big Bang Theory or Apu, which actually do the exact opposite.

Now of course that rubs off because women even though they would date a guy that looks like a Bollywood actor in a HEARTBEAT think of funny accents and nerdyness when they think of Indians.

On a GRAND scale of generalizations, that is how they end up viewing guys who are Indian and that fizzles out.

I am not blaming my situation on me being Indian but rather on my mind and environment.

I want to date attractive or above average looking women, most of the ones in my environment happen to be "American" girls who prefer "American" guys. EVEN IF they wanted to date me and they did, they would be alienated by their clique. Many aren't willing to do that.

As I said, my friends who are minorities from all colors have even given up but I refuse to do so. A lot of them have given up on the dating aspect, started gather and saving up to move out.

For me, I am willing to treat this like a soccer game. A team like Barcelona (current UEFA champs) takes 27 shots on goal, they make 3 or 4, that is all you really need.

I know things will get better for me, I just know they will........

I will do approaches starting Friday

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(03-06-2012 11:32 AM)SeXyBaCk Wrote:  Reesays, haven't you noticed man?

WHEW, long post is long.

Anyways

1. Bad Hygiene = bad smell (smell like sweat), unkept eyebrows, bad breath, etc.
2. I have gone to a lot of on campus events, usually they are full of older people and most kids my age group, as I said, live out in the suburbs and do their own thing. House parties are very popular.
3. I have done a lot outside of academics, in fact I try to spent MORE time AT SCHOOL than at home. Most kids go to class and go home to sleep and play videogames, I just stick around on campus to see what is going on.
4. I spaced out my approaches a lot, made sure one woman was gone when I approached another.
5. I am doing a lot of this to make myself more comfortable for when I do move to a bigger area

I have been hard at work, getting my resume tougher and everything to by at a college town soon. Many kids I have talked to are trying to do just that.

Thing is, I approach because I am doing great academically this semester and my classes are going well, I have the free time to do so.

[Mark]

Quote:Sure, got it boss. Anyways, I wasn't going by race but rather by groups. Sorority and such girls are hard to crack and so are the upper middle class kind but okay, enough of that from me. But I do still include race in my approaches right?

btw, why did you switch this to the roosh v forum format?

Mentioning race is fine... but you really need to be careful when you start lumping in groups of people together. As soon as you start saying "White girls are always like this," or "White girls always say this," that leads to a lot of bad beliefs and will influence your results in a very negative way. Honestly, the best thing you could do is just forget that they're white.

And this is not the rooshv format, it's MyBB, a very popular forum software. And it's better than the previous software I had, so I switched to it.

[Traindom]

Reesays, I can't believe you forgot this guy:


He's pretty known in America. Representin' he is haha.

Anyway, I like the new format for the forum. It's way easier and much nicer to read. Way better than the old format.

[Reesays]

Mark, I understand just what you are saying. Thing is, I wasn't trying to, or well, it was not my intent to label ALL WHITE WOMEN in a category. In fact what I was trying to do was label a certain clique (sorority girls and upper middle class girls) with certain characteristics but superficial of me regardless.

Anyways, I wanna make this comment about my racial insecurity (which is dead pretty much, I worry about other things now). What REALLY gets me, as an Indian, is that we are so successful financially here in America, you have so many Indian MDs and I even heard that they have Indian guys working in Wall Street Firms such as GOLDMAN SACHS. After all that cash, the whole notion of an Indian dude marrying anyone other than an Indian woman is just asinine to so many people online and in real life. This just puts in my head "wait, so you are telling me that despite having a high salary, great career, etc. a fellow indian guy STILL cannot land a beautiful woman outside of his group in bed with him? well WHAT is up".

Then AGAIN, my exposure to NYC is limited to travels and not having actually lived there. My exposure to Indian people in real life is very limited as well. I have used the internet as my outlet to getting a general idea of things, I assume people who live in NYC or whatever would tell me the general story of their idea.

Basically, it is that fear of, hay, I faced this many issues down here with women and yes a lot have openly said "White only", does it become worse in NYC and such. As a result I sometimes see myself going online and trying to get an answer which is pointless but in a way it is my way of seeing whats up.

WHEW.

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(03-06-2012 10:56 PM)Traindom Wrote:  Reesays, I can't believe you forgot this guy:


He's pretty known in America. Representin' he is haha.

Anyway, I like the new format for the forum. It's way easier and much nicer to read. Way better than the old format.

Ya, him and naveen andrews. But people like Shahid Kapoor and John Abraham and Hrithik Roshan need to be exposed to women in the US.

One woman I know in real life said she LOVED Mediterranean men (she was a White latina), ever since she saw John Abraham she loves Indian men even more, at least his kind of Indian men.

It now becomes my duty to become the John Abraham in America lol, seriously, I do think I can pull off that look. Maybe Chaos and others who saw my pic can comment.

[Mark]

Quote:Anyways, I wanna make this comment about my racial insecurity (which is dead pretty much, I worry about other things now). What REALLY gets me, as an Indian, is that we are so successful financially here in America, you have so many Indian MDs and I even heard that they have Indian guys working in Wall Street Firms such as GOLDMAN SACHS. After all that cash, the whole notion of an Indian dude marrying anyone other than an Indian woman is just asinine to so many people online and in real life. This just puts in my head "wait, so you are telling me that despite having a high salary, great career, etc. a fellow indian guy STILL cannot land a beautiful woman outside of his group in bed with him? well WHAT is up".

You're contradicting yourself here. You claim your racial insecurity is dead, and then spend a paragraph talking about how Indian guys can't date white women... I.e., you describe your racial insecurities at length.