Readjusting our perceptions of 'perfect women'

[Tim]

Fashion magazines present unrealistic portrayals of beauty blah blah blah...

All something we've heard a thousand times before, but as David Foster Wallace would say; it's very difficult to keep that truth up front.

I'm never going to think of Alessandro Ambrosio as gorgeous again...

http://fashionindie.com/victorias-secret...qus_thread

http://izismile.com/2010/04/22/louis_vui...sting.html or http://www.thecitrusreport.com/wp-conten...-heads.jpg

[Mark]

I think she's still beautiful. In some of those pics, I couldn't even tell which one was photoshopped and which one wasn't. Sure, compared to their catalog pics, they look really plain and normal, but if you saw any of them on the street or in a club, you'd be pretty damn excited. The internet skews our perceptions just as much, if not more, than the photoshopping of the magazines.

The second and third links have been on the blog before (many years ago).

[Mark]

This may also be because since quitting porn I've found myself much more attracted to "natural" looking girls and their minor flaws. I honestly still think she looks great. Most of the others too. I'd be all over them if I saw them in a club.

[Tim]

Her face is, but I really don't go for anorexics. I've been in bed with one anorexic and it was really off-putting, especially as I was really attracted to her otherwise. Beautiful girl and such a sexy personality, but feeling her ribcage, no boobs, etc was a huge buzzkill.

Yeah I posted the other two after finding the first. Thought it'd be good to have them all in one place.

I would definitely still be attracted to most of them, especially if they had make-up on. But imagine if there was no photoshopping in the first place. It'd have the same effect as giving up porn. Both guys and girls would be much more accepting of their imperfections. Or not even think of them as imperfections.

[Zac]

That dove evolution video has always blown my mind. Can you link it up so the vid shows up here?

[IdEngager]

Yea, I didn't really see any problem with the non-Photoshopped models. Even at their worst, they still looked like really hot girls, possibly just tired and just got out of bed. Though from experience, models all tend to be way taller and more gangly than you think. Seriously, the shortest of them in those pictures is like 5-8, most are around 5-10 5-11 and then put the heels on. So it would help to like tall girls. The camera and stage do funny things. Also:

- Almost everyone in music is shorter and smaller than you expect, except for the few that are freakishly tall and skinny
- People on TV really do have freakishly large heads. Not egos, actual craniums. Acting schools should just scan high schools for kids with big ass faces.
- Pro athletes are all cartoonishly proportioned, except for the ones that seem tiny on TV, who are normally proportioned. It took about two seconds standing next to Maurice Jones-Drew or any NBA player that doesn't play point guard to understand I didn't win the genetic lottery to play sports at that high a level.

Anyway, I'd still do Alessandra, I'd climb that mountain, I'll scale those trees. But if you live in a big city or go to a big school, there's probably someone who looks 95% as good and is infinitely more accessible, so why obsess over models?

[Mark]

She def doesn't look anorexic to me. There are some sickly and starved fashion models, but she's def not one of them.

There's an interesting documentary called "Picture Me" made about the fashion industry by a supermodel's boyfriend. Goes back stage and interviews them. Gets into how young most models are, how some of them have eating disorders, how many of them more or less have their adolescences stolen from them, how fucked up the photography and fashion industries are and how they treat the girls like meat, how they are totally fucked when they hit their mid-20's and can't get the same gigs they used to, how many of them are actually broke and get screwed over by their agents and managers. It's pretty interesting.

And most of the movie is a bunch of super models hanging out in sweat pants and no make up. They're still absolutely gorgeous. They just look more normal.

[Tim]

As Doc Holliday once said: "You're telling me that if that girl was in your bed naked asking you to fuck her, no-one would ever know, and you would never have to see her again, you would say no? No? Then shut the fuck up."

That's how I feel about Alessandro in that picture. Hell yeah I'd still do her, but she's still much thinner than I'd like.

What's Doc up to these days by the way?

[Mark]

I still use that line all the time with people. And yeah, I'm really into tall and thin girls, so I have no problem with how skinny she is.

He's a yoga instructor in Boston now. Vegan. Pothead. Has a hot hippy girlfriend. Hasn't looked at a pick up site or blog in over two years (not even mine). He seems pretty happy.

[Creatine Dreams]

I think my problem with the perception of a perfect woman is this.

There are plenty of women who are physically attractive enough for me to be completely happy with.

But I am always worried that I won't find a woman who I will vibe with.

I talk to girls at bars and other random places but I always assume or find that they are boring and/or not out of the box thinkers.

I need a creative girl who is also logical and rational in order for me to really like her.

I may be wrong, but right now, I find that the type of woman who has the personality I want who is also physically attractive is very rare.

But really, I think this might just be a huge self limiting belief.

[Mark]

(04-04-2012 04:19 AM)Creatine Dreams Wrote:  But really, I think this might just be a huge self limiting belief.

This.

Everyone you meet has something fascinating about them. It's your job to find out what it is, not their job to tell you.

[Halo Effect]

Runway models actually aren't supposed to be attractive to men. There's a huge difference between models that must appeal to men (playmates, bikini models, Victoria's Secret models (those need to be fucking sexy because they need to prove that the lingerie makes you attractive to men)) and runway models. The latter are tall and skinny women used by women and homosexual men to showcase their latest creations to other women and homosexual men.

And you can't say that the "non-Photoshopped models" are no more special than normal women because they look like that in those pictures. In those pictures they have all their make up removed, nothing whatsoever is done with their hair, the lighting is very unflattering, and they do not smile in the slightest. They probably could not have made them look any worse. If you want to compare models with normal women, take your normal women and take off their make up (because all the women you see in real life are wearing make up), undo their hair (because normal women do their hair before they go out), put them under that unflattering lighting and remove any facial expression from their face. Then take a picture and compare!

[Tim]

I'll just reiterate:

"I would definitely still be attracted to most of them, especially if they had make-up on. But imagine if there was no photoshopping in the first place. It'd have the same effect as giving up porn. Both guys and girls would be much more accepting of their imperfections. Or not even think of them as imperfections."

[SeXyBaCk]

Does anyone honestly feel betrayed by vicotrias angels photoshop or CGI? The way I look at it, photography nowadays is a form of art. Maybe it's more technical and doesn't require the same manual skill, but it's an illusion mostly, a creation of beauty according to the artists understanding. It's supposed to be better than the real thing. That said, most of us look hideous on pictures, worse than in real life, I know I do, I own that shit, maybe one out of 50 people looks way better on a still than they look in real life. Yes, even those girls don't look great in glaring light without make up on or a pretty background behind them, but I know I'd look shocking myself. I'm sure they're all gorgeous in their own right in real life. As do most people when they talk, breathe, smile, walk. Judging people by their still image is a harsh indicator.

In the unlikely event that you're actually repulsed by some skin blemishes or imperfect body fat proportions on a woman... blaming it on photoshop won't get you anywhere. I feel the beauty industry and hollywood is much more at fault for our high standards when it comes to looks over the porn industry. But again, they all need to make money, so it's not going to stop. Go out there, see for yourself. I don't buy into the whole "real women aren't like that", I've seen plenty of women with immaculate physique.

That said this is the world we live in. I keep myself in shape, I expect a women to put some effort into her appearance. That's how the game works. You can over-do-it/over-emphasize but you can also just let yourself completely go, neither of which I perceive as attractive.

[Tim]

It's not betrayal really, it's just so constant and all-pervading that it inevitably has an effect on our perceptions.

It's not that I think these girls are actually ugly. Like I said, I would still be attracted to most of them if I met them. I've just got too many friends/met too many girls who I've ended up seeing how badly they are affected by this shit. I don't think a single one of my female friends is fully ok with their weight, and they all come in different sizes. I guess that's what annoys me more than my own shifted perceptions... It's the amount of times I've come to realise the pressure that my female friends live with, much more than I do.

Like you said, it's not just the fashion industry, it's hollywood, and the beauty industry. I'm just pointing out this aspect of it. And yeah, there are girls who have a body like that and who look that beautiful. It's just that very few of those girls actually exist, and most of them aren't top level models.

[SeXyBaCk]

Hmm, I'm not saying it's a problem but I feel every single one of us can do something about countering this attitude. No question, the younger the female the more they're influenced by todays unrealistic photoshopped beauty idol, and same goes for guys to a lesser extent. However, I've been with a few women who at first talked about their weight or their figure to me and eventually it stopped. Maybe I made it clear that it irks me hearing about weight, because it does. I'm supportive, I exercise daily myself, so I offer them to join in, I can't stand obsessive dieting and excessive talk about weight though. However, I'd like to think I contributed to the women I've been with to eventually just feel at least okay with how they look. Some approval from a guy who's sleeping with you really settles your nerves if you're a woman. And I feel that is truly attractive, someone who feels sexy and is content with what they have. I'm not fat and happy supporter though, I don't get that attitude either. Make the best of what you have and then be proud of it.

I consider myself having high standards in all areas of life, but don't feel my physical preferences are necessarily warped. It depends on where you're from I guess too. Here in switzerland women and girls under 35 are mostly in great shape, same goes for guys. On average I don't see an obese person all day long. I've lived in california and the cliché is true, people from california take better care of themselves than say folks from georgia or northern uk. i work in a women's health clinic and i see plenty of attractive bodies.

So yeah.... I feel this is mainly an attitude issue, which can be worked on. Not saying it's easy, but doable.

As for the sexualisation of our youth... well, that's really questionable, 13 year olds wearing make up...belly free tops, bras before they need them... there was something in the uk papers today about a 14 year old couple loading their homemade porn onto facebook... whta is going on? How can we stop it though, it's everywhere. It's a side effect of our western liberal lifestyle. And media as an entity has no moral conscience what so ever. Print media in particular is out of control. The only moral concerns they have is about reminding other public figures of their wrongdoings or shortcomings.

It's kind of up to women to ... not buy into the hype and for some female role models to step up and start some kind of movement that has a beauty ideal which is closer to reality. I don't feel people like Lady Gaga are empowering womenhood in the least. Just like madonna didn't in her days. It's just moneymaking.

[Mark]

I think it would much less of a problem if women (and men) had healthier habits. 30% of the US is clinically obese. No wonder they have self esteem issues when they pick up a magazine. If people had good eating habits and walked more often, then they'd be thin, feel better about themselves and wouldn't feel like shit every time they saw a billboard.

For the record, stuff like this used to piss me off. I posted two of those three links on my old blog 2-3 years ago. I used to rant about this stuff when I was really over-weight and not happy with how I looked. That may be a coincidence, but I doubt it.

Over the past two years, the happier I've become with my self-image, the less I've cared about this kind of stuff. And the happier I've become in my relationships, the less I've cared about her physical appearance. Ironically, both of these things have ended up in me dating the hottest girls of my life the last year, but it wasn't intentional or planned that way. It just happened.

[Tim]

Most of my female friends are in good shape. They still have those insecurities. But yeah, they'd be a lot worse if they were overweight.

It doesn't piss me off most of the time because I go out of my way to avoid it. I avoid all pop culture if I can, that's why I've been reluctant about twitter, why I only watch TV on my computer, avoid most online news, etc. Literally the only place where I'm sucked into it is on the TVs at my gym lol. I love my gym but I'm really excited about leaving it so that I can finally cut it all out.

[Mark]

Everyone has insecurities about their appearance. Dude, I've met drop-dead gorgeous girls who whine about their shoulders being too wide. That's called being a human. It's not TV's fault. We all have little "flaws" which we don't like about ourselves or that we're self-conscious about. Humans have been self-conscious about their appearance since the dawn of time.

I just think if someone is already prone to self-image problems (i.e., being fat), then being exposed to that kind of pop-culture constantly (seven hours of TV a day) will make it worse. But being self-conscious about little things is totally normal and never stops. I'm really happy with my appearance now. But I'm still self-conscious about my stomach and think I have a big nose. But whatever.... At some point it stops being a massive emotional issue and just becomes this little inconvenience every once in a while.

[Mark]

Check out the book "Survival of the Prettiest"

It's one of those books that's like, over-researched. The research is exhaustive that it actually gets tedious. But it's basically a history of beauty and how our standards for beauty have evolved over human history. This kind of pre-occupation with appearance is nothing new in human history. Nothing new at all. TV just makes it a little easier and a little more extreme for certain people.

[SeXyBaCk]

Also it's just a case of the older (more mature) you become, the less you care, or rather the less you are affected by one's own minor imperfections along with those of others. Of course one should always care (in healthy proportions) about one's appearance, no matter what age one is. You owe that to yourself and those around you... not to be an eyesore. I'd say once you get past 30 though you just accept and often are turn out to be content with what you've been given. It's like this for me lately.

Maybe feeling ashamed or fat when one actually is fat is a built-in self preservation mechanism telling folks to radically change their lifestyles? Obesity, especially in the young is becoming a massive public health issue. Schools just need to start putting those kiddies on the treadmill/crosstrainer for half an hour before lunch. With all the nonsense they eat, I'm sure radical measures like these will be discussed in the not too distant future.

On the other hand there are people with body dysmorphic disorder which often comes with eating disorders or anorexia and I'm sure the rate of these disorders has increased due to our hard-body portraying media.

Incidently, not too long ago I saw something in the paper about women who are happy with their looks by country.. ah I found it, unfortunately it's in german. Basically the question is do you think you're pretty

in Saudi Arabia 16% of women consider themself beautiful
Brazil 14 % "
Turkey 13% (Turkey has a huge problem with female obesity, I believe to recall Turkey has one of the highest rate of obesity amongst women in the world)
USA 6%
Spain, switzerland, UK, Netherlands <1%

Looking at that... I think it's pretty clear that media does play some role in how women perceive themselves. Also just what you see. It makes a lot of sense that in Saudi Arabia, where women commonly are completely veiled women feel prettier, same goes for turkey to an extent because (not all) but they tend to cover up. A woman in saudi arabia does unveil at home and in front of other women but they don't see as many other women, so they don't see prettier women. They probably go by what their husbands tell them. Also in these countries the media is more demure in their depiction of flesh, nudity etc.

[Mark]

That's an interesting survey. Really interesting. I can tell you though that Brazil is not shy at all about plastering supermodels and half naked women all over the place. They're an extremely vain culture. But the people here also really take care of themselves and take care of their bodies. There are gyms freaking everywhere.

Good points all around.

[baller08]

(04-04-2012 11:25 PM)Mark Wrote:  I just think if someone is already prone to self-image problems (i.e., being fat), then being exposed to that kind of pop-culture constantly (seven hours of TV a day) will make it worse.

The 7 hours in front of the tv may also be why said person is fat.

[Thor]

I joined a pickup artist board a while back and guys consistently used the term HB10 or HB9 when describing girls that they had got laid with.

It didnt make sense I mean what makes an HB10 or HB9 ?. For me when I look at a girl I either want to date or dont want to date her its that simple.

[Edmond Dantès]

(04-07-2012 04:57 PM)Oldguy Wrote:  I joined a pickup artist board a while back and guys consistently used the term HB10 or HB9 when describing girls that they had got laid with.

It didnt make sense I mean what makes an HB10 or HB9 ?. For me when I look at a girl I either want to date or dont want to date her its that simple.

Here you go:

http://postmasculine.com/the-toxic-10-scale