Progress and Self-perception

[CHB2]

For the last few months I have been really focused on improving my abilities with women, with the goal of finding a girlfriend within the next few months. I have been following the approach program during the day, telling my friends to push me to approach girls on the weekend/at nights, and trying to set up any remaining free time with dates from OKCupid. So far my results are starting to improve. For the first time in my life I have multiple solid romantic prospects, and for the first time I have hooked up with a new girl for 3 consecutive weeks.

The problem is that my self-perception has not really changed at all - I still feel basically like a shy guy who isn't good with women. With each "success" I still feel like it is a fluke, that I somehow got lucky. I know that I get more looks in the street and compliments from people, yet I am still incredibly self-conscious about my looks. I guess my question is, will this just fall in line on its own with time, or is it something to consciously work on?

[Mark]

Self-perception always trails results. This is normal. It'll come. Just keep pushing yourself.

[Tim]

This is a great question, and I hope Mark weighs in because honestly I don't completely know. From my experience though...

It's a bit of both. If you act in a certain way, eventually your beliefs will catch up to reflect that. You'll probably still have lingering thoughts or beliefs, but you will see that shift in thinking. Often because the shift is so gradual you don't notice it much without getting some perspective on it. I think you'll find that's the case in time.

For the moment you might continue to feel like a bit of a fraud or as if things are a 'fluke', and that is just a matter of time. But you can focus on the usual things to help that process along; be as authentic as possible and aim to make real connections with the women you meet. As you do that you'll feel more and more that women are choosing to be with you because of who you really are, and that that is attractive to them.

[CHB2]

I guess the problem it is causing me is it makes me timid to push things. I'm fine, or even really good when I am face-to-face with a woman because my innate social skills usually bubble up and I am comfortable, able to joke, flirt, touch, etc. The issue I have is when I am thinking about texting, or waiting to hear back from a girl, all the insecurity shit takes over. My mind keeps repeating that it was just a fluke, and that I shouldn't push my luck by trying to see them again. Writing that down is weird, but those are the types of thought processes going through my mind. Like right now there is a girl I want to set up a date with, but I just keep getting blocked on idea of "don't push my luck".

Anyone else have similar feelings despite external successes?

[Mark]

Like I said, this is pretty normal and most people go through it. You just have to push through it.

So you have insecure thoughts? So what? Everyone does. Question is are you able to act despite them?

I've been through this with pick up, in starting a business, in learning languages... it comes up everywhere. Self-perception trails your results and as a result there's always an awkward period where you think you're worse than you actually are.

I'd say it's been even worse in business... every single entrepreneur I've ever met, even ones who are worth millions of dollars, live in a constant paranoia that their business is just a year away from going under. I still have that irrational fear every time I do something major, even though I'm financially in a better position than most of my friends with corporate jobs.

In psychology, this is referred to as "loss aversion" and it basically means that humans perceive the pain of losing something to be much greater than happiness of gaining it. As a result we over-estimate and over-value things we lose or stand to lose and under-estimate the value of things we gain or are capable of gaining. It sucks. But it's natural and we all have to fight through it. It DOES get much easier in time as your self-perception catches up with your results, but the fear of losing a girl is always going to be greater than the joy of finding one.

I don't really experience this with women anymore, but it's because my reference experiences have added up over the years and my self-perception is fairly accurate these days. But it takes a lot of time and patience. You just have to get used to acting despite those fears and insecurities. Or even better, harnessing those insecurities to motivate you even further.

[CHB2]

Thanks for the in-depth response Mark. I just bit the bullet and texted the girl, I was inspired by you pointing out that "the fear of losing a girl is always going to be greater than the joy of finding one."

I mean fuck it if she doesn't want to come out on a date - I wasn't going to gain anything by not asking, or waiting until the perfect time to ask. Hell, she may already have a boyfriend by then if I just wait. I will try to keep the idea of loss aversion in my mind with regards to women, because I think it will help a lot with pushing things.

[Tim]

(03-19-2012 08:13 PM)Mark Wrote:  Self-perception trails your results and as a result there's always an awkward period where you think you're worse than you actually are.

Yes... Although there's another issue going on at the same time I think.

How I began seeing it a while ago (and continue to see it) is that after you first make that conscious decision to become better with women there's this period where you can see that you're not where you want to be; that you're too nervous, that you don't express your sexual intent, etc. I used to get this all the time when I met a girl for the first time; I knew that I was this funny, charming, caring, sexual guy (excuse the lack of modesty) but my neuroticism and anxieties were holding me back from showing that. I knew that if I could get comfortable around a girl that I would be able to show that side of me, and there was a good chance she'd like me, but often I didn't get that chance and it left me REALLY frustrated. So you just have to focus on overcoming those anxieties one by one, and enjoy that feeling of empowerment you get when you do something that you've been limiting yourself from doing up until then.

There's the fantastic video by Ira Glass, creator of This American Life, that talks about this briefly, but in the context of creativity. Check it out.

http://writerunderground.com/2011/04/28/...-our-work/

[CHB2]

Wow, awesome video. I make music and that fits my experience with that really well. I had never thought that it would be equally applicable towards becoming better with women, but it makes a lot of sense.

I love the review of his old material - "Every part of this is ill-conceived"

I have definitely felt that way towards some of my efforts with women. By all accounts, I should not be a pussy about texting a girl.. I am able a steady job and live on my own in NYC, yet I can't figure out for the life of me how to type a 30 word message to some girl who I don't even really know asking her out on a date, haha. I know what you mean about anxieties holding you back from expressing what you think is your true self - it sucks - but I think you are right that all you can do is embrace the feeling of empowerment you get from pushing your limits.

Thanks for the input!

[CHB2]

Just a quick update. I got in touch with the girl and she gave me a polite answer that basically said that she is not interested. We share a lot of friends, so I guess that is why she handled it diplomatically. While I would have liked to go out on a date with her I feel really glad that I had the confidence to even ask in the first place. I am definitely adapting more of the mindset that I will miss 100% of the shots I do not take, and I have a date set for Wednesday with a different girl because of not being afraid to ask.

Thanks again for the input on this.

[qsafe10]

(03-19-2012 03:53 AM)CHB2 Wrote:  For the last few months I have been really focused on improving my abilities with women, with the goal of finding a girlfriend within the next few months. I have been following the approach program during the day, telling my friends to push me to approach girls on the weekend/at nights, and trying to set up any remaining free time with dates from OKCupid. So far my results are starting to improve. For the first time in my life I have multiple solid romantic prospects, and for the first time I have hooked up with a new girl for 3 consecutive weeks.

The problem is that my self-perception has not really changed at all - I still feel basically like a shy guy who isn't good with women. With each "success" I still feel like it is a fluke, that I somehow got lucky. I know that I get more looks in the street and compliments from people, yet I am still incredibly self-conscious about my looks. I guess my question is, will this just fall in line on its own with time, or is it something to consciously work on?

This subject is in its route that makes it a bit difficult to be welly quoted anyway I want to say that I in a certain period of my life was in similar situation. Was I really shy, to say? I guess not. My economical status was during that time unstable that appareantly I was not representable. Girls in my search category have had so much difficulties to accept my propositon. Surely they loved me and know I would be their perfect husband nonetheless romance in itself was not enough convincible. I felt rejected and froze in question of flirting with them. My self esteem was seriously affected. I was always irritated by the fact of loving someone but can not approach her knowing i will be banned. The worse even the ones who understand and were ready to support me in many senses could not gain me just because I thought a day they would give up when realizing they were blindly in error with me. This is not a simple situation to be. This unvalues your real porsonality. Fortunately i dealt with it. First I try to understand me, accept the way in which I am because this would ever stay for the rest of my life. I kill the feeling of thinking culpable for what is happening. And above all I keep approaching them. As once said Alexander the great: The self belief is the half of a victory. What? Even if I were economically rich there are some who would anyway reject me, or just accept me to get adventages. This is a long process. Put in your mind girls are who you think they are. Fight for your emotional liberty, be confident, absorbe anything that life brings to you when being in that way. Do not forget life has always been question of improveness.