Postmasculine Role Models

[Mark]

(03-15-2012 09:19 PM)Schmechti Wrote:  Michael Jackson for me, hands down.

No one could have had more women. His vulnerability, magic and status was insane.

Haha... key phrase, "could have had."

Ever read his biography though? He was a nutjob. Absolutely brilliant performer and musician, but totally not right in the head.

[Reesays]

lol this guy is my rolemodel

[Zac]

Why? What is this guys name?

[Mark]

(03-17-2012 04:29 PM)Zac Wrote:  Why? What is this guys name?

Because he's fat, Indian and hanging out with cute white girls, I'm assuming.

[crazyhorse]

100% certain that this guy is loaded with $$$$

you should google "how to spot the rich guy", haha. Tons of examples of ugly guys with hot girls.

[Zac]

*White girl.

She is pretty cute though. He seems like a pretty happy dude.


I think we should come up with some sort of format for profiling the role models.

[Mark]

Just listened to this podcast with Magic Johnson the other day. I didn't know a whole lot about him, but he's another guy you could definitely add to this.

http://www.grantland.com/podcasts/_/sort/bs-report

5-time NBA champion and probably the second best basketball player of all time. Contracted HIV in 1991 and not only did he come clean about it publicly, but he took on the role of spokesman and educator about the virus ever since and was able to bring it into the awareness of the general public and educate them about it.

A couple paraphrased exchanges that stood out to me in the interview...

Q: Do you think you went too far in sharing the mistakes you made with the public? Even the stories about your sexual experiences?
A: No. I had to come clean. I had to let people know the reality if they were going to understand the virus and protect themselves. I know it hurt my family. But I had already hurt them, so I may as well come clean about everything. I didn't go too far. And I went far enough because there wasn't anywhere else to go. I shared everything.

Q: Did you think you were going to die?
A: No, I never thought I was going to die. My doctors told me what I needed to do and I went and did it. That's how I've been my whole life, you put a challenge in front of me, no matter how hard, and I'm going to take it and beat it. That's just who I am. Everyone else thought I was going to die, but I never did for a second. I wasn't going to let myself die.

On being forced to quit basketball and living with a notorious virus: "My life is incredibly blessed. I've had amazing things happen to me, and I wouldn't take back a single day. There were tough times and challenges, but that's just life. I have no regrets and I wouldn't change anything."

He also gave Bill Simmons, the interviewer a gift at the end of the interview, totally unprovoked (although if you know Bill Simmons, then you understand why it's funny).

[Tim]

Thought I'd revive this thread.

I've just been listening to some John Lennon and it reminded me of how much he inspires me. I think of all the people I admire, the ones I admire most are those who were quite flawed in some way but made a big effort to become a better person. I think nobody illustrates this change more than John Lennon.

He had a very sarcastic and odd sense of humour, and sometimes this could be very vicious. He grew up without his father, and though he was very adoring of his mother he felt distanced from her and unloved, which he would later write about in the song 'Mother'.

He could be very rude and cruel to his friends, including ruthlessly mocking the Beatles' manager Brian Epstein for being gay, and belittling Ringo's ability as a drummer. He treated his first wife Cynthia wife with disdain, and even physically abused her. When she had their son Julian he paid very little attention to him growing up, effectively reproducing what had happened to him as a child.

Even when he met Yoko Ono he didn't initially change very much, and at one point he tried to strangle his other lover May Pang. But when he reconnected with Yoko, and she became pregnant with his second son Sean, he agreed to give up music so that he could be a house husband and raise Sean properly. He recognized his own flaws in his music, and in it he tried to express his desire to change. He managed to do so, and became a much happier and settled person for it. He was brutally honest, in a way that I admire unreservedly. He advocated for peace and love with no reservedness or embarrassment. When he was killed, the incredible outpouring of sadness was a testament to how deeply he had reached people. I think he defined beautifully what it is like to live life fully; with flaws, the inevitability of maturing, and all.

[Mark]

I think Paul is massively underrated... as weird as it is to say that.

[Mark]

I've been thinking about this. I don't think Lennon belongs here at all. It's cool that he inspired you, but he's definitely not a role model. Kurt Cobain inspired me, but I would never refer to him as a role model. Lennon was a wife-beater, a drug-user, abandoned one of his kids, trashed his colleagues, had a bizarre relationship with Yoko. And I disagree that he ever rehabilitated and figured his shit out. Some of the stuff him and Yoko did to their kids was clearly emotional/verbal abuse.

I respect what Lennon did, but I've never really respected Lennon himself. He was a radical ideologue who didn't live by his own ideals. His personal life was a complete mess. And to me, he kind of personifies that whole generation of faux-spiritual baby boomers who used the peace/love stuff as a front for narcissism. And not to take anything away from John, but Paul was the musical genius.

If you're going to go with a Beatle as a role model, you have to go with Paul in my opinion. Aside from him being the musical engine behind the group, and pioneering their new sounds and recording techniques on Sgt. Pepper's and Magical Mystery Tour, he's an amazing stand-up guy as well. He married a girl at the height of his fame, and in 40 years of marriage he was always faithful and only slept in a separate bed from her once -- despite a dozen world tours and millions of groupies. Him and Linda were able to shield their daughter from fame to the point that she grew up thinking that Eric Clapton, David Gilmore and Ringo were just "daddy's friends" and had no conception of how famous they were. He took Julian under his wing when John had abandoned him and even wrote one of the best rock ballads ever ("Hey Jude") to cheer him up. The guy's still out there rocking, and even though he hasn't written a good album in 30+ years, he loves what he's doing and is enjoying every second of life. No preaching. No lecturing. Just making music and enjoying his life.

[Creatine Dreams]

Wow, Mark you nailed it. Never really liked John Lennon, to be honest. He always came off to me as being kind of whiny. Kind of emo before there was emo. Plus, his whole deal with Yoko Ono was pretty gross, in my opinion.

On a sidenote, I think Bruce Dickinson is a pretty good role model. Dude flies jets, was a fencing champion and is a writer. Oh, and he also happens to sing for one of the biggest bands of all time. And they are still doing playing shows to this day.

[Mark]

I didn't know that about Dickinson, that's awesome. I'll have to check out his Wiki page.

[Tim]

See my point was that John changed. He definitely wasn't admirable for most of his life, but I think he finally reached a place of peace and integrity near the end of his life. He had such a harsh childhood, with no real love in it, that it's kind of unbelievable he ever reached that stage.

I'd say that's a very one-sided look at Paul. The guy's had 3 wives all with difficulties in the relationships, and a fiance that he cheated on. He was certainly no saint in his relationships. He sold out a lot too if you ask me, which none of the other Beatles could be accused of. I've seen him be incredibly condescending and preachy. I think in comparison to John he comes off better, but Ringo or even George were probably nicer guys. I do admire how he adopted Julian and became the father John refused to be.

I don't compare John and George's musical talent inside the Beatles because even on the songs they wrote themselves it's hard to say what influence came in where. I just give full credit to the genius of the McCartney-Lennon songwriting partnership. If you look at their solo careers though... 'Live and Let Die' vs 'Imagine'? It's not even a contest.

[Mark]

I don't think John changed much.

John and Paul were better together than either of them were solo. I think that's beyond debate. But if you read into the Beatles history, Paul and George Martin pioneered a lot of the new sounds and technology that they experimented with and revolutionized rock music, even though John gets a lot of the credit for that. Maybe it's because I'm a musician, but that wins big points for me.

And say what you want about Paul, I never said he was perfect. With a life like his, three marriages is not the most surprising thing ever. Quite different from beating your wife, abandoning your son, and then turning around and talking about peace and love and equality and all of that. I'm sure John believed in everything he said and sang about, but the guy was not a role model. He clearly had serious personal problems.

[Creatine Dreams]

Greg Graffin from Bad Religion might be another good one. He has had a long career playing punk music and also has a PHD in Zoology. Not sure what his love life is like, but he seems to be a healthy, well balanced dude!

[IdEngager]

A friend of mine was actually one of Greg Graffin's TA's while we were both at UCLA! We were both punk rock brats growing up too and she would freak out anytime they were in meetings together, and it was a bit weird/awesome that your professor would leave you backstage passes for Warped Tour. From what I heard, he indeed is a healthy, well balanced dude.

[Salaam]

I've never had role models really, but one person I'm becoming increasingly interested in studying is Japanese Rinzai Zen Master Kyozan Joshu Sasaki, Roshi. Dude's been a monk since 14 and still practices and teaches at 104 years old.

Cool little interview I found from the NY Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/us/09z...wanted=all

[Tim]

After that discussion on John Lennon I felt it was worth reading up on him a bit more, so I read Philip Norman's biography of him. Though I feel like Mark unfairly portrayed him, particularly in regards to the musical side of things, I'll admit he probably shouldn't be on here.

By the same token, I think MJ has to be taken off this list. Although what he did on the court was amazing, I've always heard a lot of bad things about him off the court. This video was like the nail in the coffin for me.

[Edmond Dantès]

One of my favourite rolemodels is Ernest Shackleton. He sailed with his crew to the antarctis in order to cross the continent from sea to sea. But the expedition went terribly wrong, soon the crew members had to fight for their lives and Shackleton had to prove his leadership skills in the face of death. He managed to bring every single one of his men home and is since then a rolemodel for leadership.

I got interested in him after reading this article

http://artofmanliness.com/2011/08/02/lea...hackleton/

and started to read this book, really recommend it, if you're interested.

What a man and what an adventure...

http://www.amazon.com/Endurance-Shacklet...39-8957906

[Zac]

I did a paper on Shackleton and he may be one of the most bad ass men humanity has produced.

[Jon]

(03-31-2012 07:07 PM)Mark Wrote:  If you're going to go with a Beatle as a role model, you have to go with Paul in my opinion. Aside from him being the musical engine behind the group, and pioneering their new sounds and recording techniques on Sgt. Pepper's and Magical Mystery Tour, he's an amazing stand-up guy as well. He married a girl at the height of his fame, and in 40 years of marriage he was always faithful and only slept in a separate bed from her once -- despite a dozen world tours and millions of groupies. Him and Linda were able to shield their daughter from fame to the point that she grew up thinking that Eric Clapton, David Gilmore and Ringo were just "daddy's friends" and had no conception of how famous they were. He took Julian under his wing when John had abandoned him and even wrote one of the best rock ballads ever ("Hey Jude") to cheer him up. The guy's still out there rocking, and even though he hasn't written a good album in 30+ years, he loves what he's doing and is enjoying every second of life. No preaching. No lecturing. Just making music and enjoying his life.

Ha, I would have picked you for a George guy.

---

(03-31-2012 09:57 PM)Mark Wrote:  John and Paul were better together than either of them were solo. I think that's beyond debate. But if you read into the Beatles history, Paul and George Martin pioneered a lot of the new sounds and technology that they experimented with and revolutionized rock music, even though John gets a lot of the credit for that. Maybe it's because I'm a musician, but that wins big points for me.

I'd say Paul was pushing the technical line more, while John was pushing the songwriting and subject matter, along somewhat Dylan-esque lines. The combination of the two was what was so great. Also, I think John needed an editor to be his best. In his solo career and late beatles stuff, he is producing things that, in an earlier time, I am sure Paul would have said "ok this is descending into absurdity" (see revolution number 9, which paul wanted bounced from the album, and Imagine, which is, in my opinion, the most asinine song ever written).

[Mark]

Agree about comparing John to Dylan. I've never been able to appreciate Dylan.

Paul was the genius song-writer and musician. His flaw was he got too campy and cheesy... John off-balanced this.
John had the artistic vision and message and was into pushing the social boundaries. His flaw was that he could get way out there and Paul would reign him in.

I like Imagine a lot, but I do think it's overrated. It's idealism is so ridiculous that it's a bit painful to listen to now.

George is cool, but waaaaaaay too much of a hippie for me. Decent guy though and decent guitarist.

I actually really like Ringo. Every interview I see of him, he comes across as the most chilled-out and humble guy. Also, whereas George kind of lost touch with Paul and John, Ringo maintained friendships with them both until John's death and until present-day with Paul.

[IdEngager]

Paul could have written, performed, and recorded all of the Beatles albums by himself and they still would have turned out good. He was the best bassist, guitarist, singer, and drummer of the entire group.

[Jon]

(05-02-2012 10:50 PM)IdEngager Wrote:  Paul could have written, performed, and recorded all of the Beatles albums by himself and they still would have turned out good.

Then why were all of the Wings albums so mediocre?

[IdEngager]

(05-02-2012 10:57 PM)Jon Wrote:  Then why were all of the Wings albums so mediocre?

I liked the Wings albums! Some of them, at least. Call me a sucker for schlock.