Normal success rate (?)

[Mark]

Halo just dropped a hot load of truth all over everyone's face.

[Thor]

Excellent post Halo. I dont think I have the energy or the time to see more then one girl right now. I have been approaching 3 girls everyday over the last week. Not had one rejection all of them have been cool most of them that I chatted too were already in relationships which is fair enough.

[Chaos]

Ok, I'm going to disagree apparently with everyone here a little bit.

Yeah, a 10% success rate is normal or I would even go to say you're doing fine. Reasons are explained in Models and that makes one every ten women which is good enough to get you regularly laid without too much effort.

The reason I'm saying that is:

A) You need to know what's normal and what's not to know if you need to change something or not and that's absolutely necessary for people who are starting. If you're learning and improving you need to know what to expect, you can't just say you shouldn't worry about it, cool guys do not worry. Well if you approach 1000 women and you can't get a number or a date from ANY of them (or 100 for that matter) probably you're doing something wrong and you need to change it.
B) You seem to forget that a lot of people here come from PUA where "normal" is defined as getting every women, 10s and 9s and having a 100% success rate, and if you don't have it then you're doing something wrong... Even if she has a boyfriend, even if she's a lesbian...

So disregarding the fact that at one point you won't worry about your success rate, the answer is YES, that's normal.

[Halo Effect]

I agree Chaos. Rejection sucks, and PUA (which was built on sleazy marketing and clueless men who were unsuccessful with women) created the ideal of never getting rejected again, which of course is very appealing to men who fear rejection (i.e. almost all men).

My post might have been a little harsh, but it was because once you start to experience some success with women, you start to look at "success rates" differently. It's important to know that never getting rejected is both impossible and undesirable.

[Tim]

Yeah actually I'm seeing another side to it because of what you said Chaos.

If you're getting rejected by 90 out of 100 women who you are attracted to, who you have a connection with, and who you know you should be hooking up with... then yes that would suck.

If you're getting rejected by 90 out of 100 women who you approach simply because you think she's hot, then that's not really that bad. If you have any standards, then you won't want to sleep with a fair majority of them yourself, in which case you'll end up rejecting them.

[shadow]

I feel like I can give you a great perspective on this. I used to endlessly obsess about %ages and all that shit until a couple of months ago. Trust me. It's not worth it. The most important thing that you can do is to hit on girls that you find attractive and not give a fuck about how it goes. They like you, cool. They don't like you, cool. Once you do that enough, you'll start getting a ton of numbers. If they respond, cool. If they don't respond cool. Then you'll start getting them out on dates. No chemistry, cool. Yes chemistry, super cool. Basically, you do what you want and let the chips fall where they may. If you can keep that up for a month (in a big city), I guaran-fucking-tee you, you'll be seeing a chick that you like.

So do this. For the next month or so, remap success in your brain as walking up to a girl and saying hi (assuming you can do that. if you can't do progressive desensitization like Mark or BradP suggest). Do that over and over, until you don't feel a twinge of regret.

[I_Dare]

@Chaos - thanks.

@Halo - Do you think you need that much of a deep connection for casual sex for example? I wasn't really talking about relationships. In relationships compatibility on many levels is a must...but for casual sex...hmm.

[Jon]

(05-29-2012 04:27 AM)IulianC Wrote:  @Chaos - thanks.

@Halo - Do you think you need that much of a deep connection for casual sex for example? I wasn't really talking about relationships. In relationships compatibility on many levels is a must...but for casual sex...hmm.

If you want to have casual sex you need to find women who are interested in casual sex. That is not all (or probably most) women.

[Halo Effect]

You don't need a deep connection for casual sex. You basically only need a mutual desire for sex for it to happen. Plenty of men have sex with tons of women without ever connecting deeply. But I believe that sex without any emotional connection is not worth having. And once you establish an emotional connection and trust, then girls tend to do things they normally wouldn't. Some women will have superficial, casual sex with you anyway, but not most women as Jon says. Once you start having emotional connections with girls, many more will have "casual sex" with you, if that makes any sense.

[Traindom]

Awesome post, Halo Effect. The like button didn't feel like enough. I liked the way you put that information. It gave me mind chills haha.

[kaizen]

(05-29-2012 05:25 AM)Halo Effect Wrote:  And once you establish an emotional connection and trust, then girls tend to do things they normally wouldn't ...
Once you start having emotional connections with girls, many more will have "casual sex" with you, if that makes any sense.

Halo, could you elaborate what you mean here?

[Zac]

I'm not going to speak for halo but I find that girls have been much more willing to have sex with me if I connected with them. If I wanted to know who they were, made them feel more important to me than just another girl I had sex with, ect.

Just because you do these things does not mean a woman will want to be your girlfriend. It does however make whatever interactions you do have more intimate and desirable (at least in my opinion).

This could go for a girl you hook up with now and then, a girl you just met that night, or a girl you want to be less casual with. No matter what women tend to appreciate that approach (at least in my opinion).

[Halo Effect]

What Zac says. Many single girls would love to have good sex. But they are held back by a variety of things. For example, some things may be out of their comfort zone or scary for her (sex with a stranger is a big deal, especially for a girl!), she might be judged for her actions by you or "society", she would feel used if a guy just wants her for sex and doesn't care about her as a person. Oh, and if a girl has a one night stand and the sex is bad and there is no connection, then things get awkward and uncomfortable. Even if the sex is good and there is no connection at all, things can get awkward and uncomfortable afterwards.

I know a girl who's single and open-minded and genuinely wants to enjoy casual sex, but she's more or less given up. Her experiences would be anything from an awkward night of bad sex, to feelings of hurt after feeling used and disrespected.

If you DO connect with girls, make them feel valued as persons, develop some mutual trust and respect, make them feel safe, then much of what I wrote above does not apply anymore.

So... it is definitely true that assholes can get laid a lot as well. But if you have a connection with a girl while at the same time being shamelessly sexual, it's more likely to happen IMO. Especially if she's a high self-esteem girl, a girl with self-respect. A girl like that will not get with a guy who does not respect her. And also definitely with a girl who is more inhibited and shy or inexperienced. A connection goes a long way in melting away her inhibitions. But I'm overanalyzing again here. Connecting with girls makes your experiences with them far more enjoyable and fulfilling, that's enough for me.

[SeXyBaCk]

I'd say 80% of women I've been with so far said they were open to casual sex but the right guys weren't offering/in sight. The casual encounters they had mostly sucked, or were "simply just sex" so they said. But that's what they tell you when you're currently sleeping with them, so maybe that's not the real deal.

You don't need much of a personal connection for casual sex, specially on a booze filled night out. As long as there's some physical attraction. Anyway, I don't think random encounters is what most guys are looking for when they say they want casual sex. You want a no string attached relationship.

Connection isn't really hard to come by, you laugh, you have fun together, voila. I still think most of it comes down to how comfortable you are, rather than what you're doing to/for them.

[Jack Sparrow]

What I've learned is that every guy and every girl are SO different. I started reading the subject of demographics in Mark's book. It's not something new, but it does put all the PUA stuff into perspective.

My roommate in college ended up with 4/5 girls he approaches (80% success rate). How does he do that? He has a remarkable ability to not be attracted to girls that are not attracted to him. He obviously doesn't like ugly girls, but he doesn't like super hot girls either. He'll just rationalize they are slutty, bitchy, whatever. In the end, he focused on a very narrow demographic that he has a very high success rate in.

I on the other hand has a <1% success rate. I approach whoever, and most of them don't have anything in common with me (racially, educationally, interests, passion, age).

It's all good, but I am beginning to accept the fact that my time is precious. If I don't have to work and can just cruise around town everyday, sure, I'll just go after any girl that is hot. But given my time limitation, I plan to narrow down my demographics a little, and go after girls that I am more likely to be compatible with.

Regarding girls. There are many girls who want casual sex, there are girls who want nothing but relationship. Some guys can bring out the slut in girls, some guys can only bring out the relationship tendency of the girls. But that's another subject.

[Mountainman]

Hey everyone, this is only my second post, but I've been reading the forums for a while and have read Mark's book at least twice now. I find this thread fascinating.

(06-01-2012 04:07 PM)Halo Effect Wrote:  What Zac says. Many single girls would love to have good sex. But they are held back by a variety of things. For example, some things may be out of their comfort zone or scary for her (sex with a stranger is a big deal, especially for a girl!), she might be judged for her actions by you or "society", she would feel used if a guy just wants her for sex and doesn't care about her as a person. Oh, and if a girl has a one night stand and the sex is bad and there is no connection, then things get awkward and uncomfortable. Even if the sex is good and there is no connection at all, things can get awkward and uncomfortable afterwards.

There are a lot of other things that go through a woman's head before sex that men don't have to worry about, especially regarding casual sex.

-Women have to worry about getting pregnant, men don't. We would think twice about having sex if there was a chance a baby would grow inside of us. On top of that having to deal with having someones baby that she hardly even knows, not to mention what her family and friends would think.
-Some women can't use certain types of birth control, such as being allergic to latex, problems taking the pill etc. I have a close personal female friend who almost died from a blood clot caused by the pill, now she can't be on any type of hormonal birth control. I know this adds to her anxiety regarding sex.
-Women get beaten/raped. This usually isn't a problem for a guy who goes home with a stranger.
-Women have a greater chance of contracting an std than a man.
-Social stigma-a woman who has a lot of sex is labeled a slut, a guy who has a lot of sex is labeled a stud
-Women don't always orgasm during sex. Men almost always do
-Menstrual cycles, hormonal imbalances, yeast infections, discharge,etc.

Men don't have to worry about this stuff before we have sex, women do. Even if she's single and attracted to you and horny as hell, I'm sure all this crap will go through her mind before she spreads her legs for someone she only knows for a few hours.

[James]

I'm kinda surprised to see these answers. It seems like very PUA based answers.

90% rejection rate (in anything) sucks. Also, what rejection does to a person's brain is unhealthy. It can be classified as a 'small trauma'.

Obviously if you're just randomly cold approaching girls, you won't get that many.

I always think...if a movie actor/famous musician/celebrity/award winning scientist did a cold approach on a girl and she didn't recognize him...she could quite likely reject him and think he's a creep.

The argument that Halo brought up that "if she rejects you immediately, then she's not worth your time" is not true. That is a 'protect the ego' type of view. She doesn't know anything about you. She could definitely be worth your time. It's just a bad way to meet her.

The weird thing is that I'm currently dating a really hot girl that I met through cold approach..and I've dated many girls that way. I totally agree that it is a numbers game, but I also believe that cold approach pickup is and should be the last resort....then again, if I'm at a bar/club and I see a girl I'm into, I'll go for it, but I realize that it's just for fun and not ideal. I know if she met me in a different context, things would be different.

Assuming you're an interesting guy, imagine if a girl knew all the cool things you've done etc, she would probably be interested. I also don't buy into the 'you don't get along with most girls' thing. I believe you can relate to everyone. We've all been through the same emotions/experiences to a certain extent.

[Zac]

Quote:The argument that Halo brought up that "if she rejects you immediately, then she's not worth your time" is not true. That is a 'protect the ego' type of view. She doesn't know anything about you. She could definitely be worth your time. It's just a bad way to meet her.

Could you be more specific, and what kind of alternate course of action would you take besides leaving a girl alone who isn't interested in meeting you at the time?

[James]

As I said, it's a bad way to meet her in the first place...or a last resort. What course of action to take if she's not interested in meeting you? Change your lifestyle and stop being just another random guy hitting on her.

You can't take her reaction to you seriously from a cold approach. She doesn't know anything about you. So why would someone judge her immediately and say she's not worth your time?

Obviously leave her alone if she 'rejects' you but what bothers me is when guys judge girls when they get rejected. Like a guy hits on a girl and she rejects him so he says "oh she was a bitch anyway". Maybe if you developed a cool lifestyle where you meet them more naturally, you wouldn't encounter those situations.

The whole 90 percent success rate is based on cold approach pickup. There are guys who have certain professions/hobbies who date really hot girls and never have to go through 9 approaches to get 1 hot girl. That's the hard way.

Having said that, cold approach pick up has worked well for me and I'll keep doing it in the future, but I realize she doesn't know anything about me right off the bat and I wont take it seriously.

People shouldn't tell guys that "this is just what you gotta do to get girls". There are way easier, less stressful and more productive ways that cold approach. But do it for fun if you like it.

[Chaos]

No, Halo's comment is straight right. A girl who flat outs reject you is not worth your time. That's not judging the girl and one shouldn't take it that way, it's just expressing a reality, acknowledging it and moving on.

I don't have time to make friends with every girl I approach. Maybe she's a wonderful girl in every sense of the word, but if she just straight tells me she has a boyfriend then it's not worth the effort to pursue her. If I approach and she just harshly or politely rejects me then she's not worth my time... If she does it politely I may try to push it a little further but that's it. This doesn't pass judgement upon her, simply states the fact that I'm not willing to lose my time on her because there's a dozen girls around that are wonderful too and willing to meet me. So she can be the most wonderful women on earth and still don't be worth my time.

When you say she was a bitch anyway then you're actually rationalizing the rejection. That's something we all do in different ways, I would think she may have a boyfriend, she may not want to meet anyone right now, she is just having fun and doesn't want any attention or even "I just approached her badly or at a bad time" (because that still sometimes happens to me). All them are rationalizations of the rejection, since you don't know almost anything about the girl, I think is healthier to think she's just not looking for anything than "she's not that hot anyway"... But no matter what your rationalization is for the rejection, the fact that is not worth your time will stand, you're better of focusing your effort somewhere else.

I have an effort/time ratio, there's a given amount of time and effort I'm willing to put to get a girl or to get a date or to get her to bed. It fluctuates with every girl but the more I know her the more effort I'm willing to put in (assuming I like what I know about her), so in a cold approach, since I don't know anything about her except that she's hot, the effort I'm willing to put it is really small, so if she doesn't meet me halfway, if she straights out reject me, I simply move on because is not worth MY time.

[Zac]

I find this advice to be slightly misleading although some of it is accurate and I think pretty in line with what a lot of people around here generally have to say. Have you read the book Models? There is a sticky about it if you haven't.

Quote:There are guys who have certain professions/hobbies who date really hot girls and never have to go through 9 approaches to get 1 hot girl. That's the hard way.

Yeah, getting an entirely new profession and developing a serious interest in a new hobby or hobbies (partly for the purpose of picking up girls....?) is totally less hard than walking up to a bunch of girls in the real world and seeing if you match up. I personally recommend both. I'm pretty fucking awesome IMO and I don't have a success rate of 9/10 because of it though. I'm still very happy with my success.

Quote:People shouldn't tell guys that "this is just what you gotta do to get girls". There are way easier, less stressful and more productive ways that cold approach. But do it for fun if you like it.

I'm sorry, but some guy who just started this out is not going to be the guy that gets 9/10 girls he meets randomly through out life through his social and lifestlye network, that's misleading as well. I don't remember many people really telling him cold approach was the only way but again your way is not an easier way until you've worked for probably at least a few years on your lifestyle.

Quote:Change your lifestyle and stop being just another random guy hitting on her.

That's pretty much advocated here always

Quote:Obviously leave her alone if she 'rejects' you but what bothers me is when guys judge girls when they get rejected. Like a guy hits on a girl and she rejects him so he says "oh she was a bitch anyway". Maybe if you developed a cool lifestyle where you meet them more naturally, you wouldn't encounter those situations.

I'm sure most of us agree with you but I won't agree that you won't encounter these situations. You will always encounter these situations.

Also, I don't understand. You were saying those guys get 9/10 girls. How could those guys POSSIBLY want to be around 9/10 girls they meet or even approach due to looks alone?

[James]

Chaos - You're still viewing it from a cold approach pickup mindset. Yeah if you're cold approaching and you get rejected, then 'she's not worth your time' in that sense. My point is that if she met you in a different context, she would most likely react much better to you (depending how interesting/accomplished you are)

I've met girls who I thought would 'flake' on me or that had boyfriends. So in those situations I thought they probably weren't worth my time. I later met them where they saw me in a different context (DHV in pickup terms) and then things happened. It's like if you've ever told a girl something interested that you do and they all of a sudden change and go "Really??". But when you initially approached her in a club for example, she writes you off as another annoying guy.

Zac - I agree that a newbie should work on both lifestyle and approaching. If you gave him a year of approaching vs a year of developing a cool lifestyle, the cool lifestyle would be much more worth it I think. The approaching lifestyle would be stressful and full of flakes/discouragement but possibly some success depending on his looks/social skills.

As for your last question. These guys probably wouldn't want to be around that many girls. I'm just saying that they have many more available options which they can pursue in a non stressful way.

[Alvar]

(06-02-2012 07:03 AM)James Wrote:  90% rejection rate (in anything) sucks. Also, what rejection does to a person's brain is unhealthy. It can be classified as a 'small trauma'.

You are correct. Unless one has the brain of a psychopath, being rejected will always be painful, no matter how irrational this pain may be. Accepting that the pain is part of the process, even a likely outcome, helps to overcome it faster. Once you acknowledge the "oh shit, this sucks" you are ready to move up and get to the "I'm okay" much faster that if you otherwise mask it and just pretend you're all right.

I have to ask why do you say it can be classified as "small trauma"? Where do you get it from? Is it because most men have irrational beliefs associated with rejection or based in scientific conclusions?

As i see it, we anticipate a much dramatic pain that it really is (thus causing us to avoid it) and, afterwards, process it rather poorly, in order to not have ourselves go through it again. The rejection itself is painful, yes, but fairly bearable. It's just that we teach ourselves not to go through the process by expecting too much of a pain and/or punishing ourselves harshly for "steeping on the raw branch."

[Mark]

Trauma is not necessarily always bad thing. Research shows that a large percentage of trauma victims usually look back on it as a beneficial and constructive experience.

[Paul]

Does success rate really matter?

What's the point of knowing it? It's not like you're going to go celibate and be a monk. Rejection is just something you're going to have to learn to handle, unless you never want to meet women.

Now go out and get rejected.