Normal success rate (?)

[Zac]

I got rejected no less than 20 times this Saturday night and I had a blast. Granted, I can't speak the language of all the people here but that made it even more difficult and frustrating in a way but who cares? That's life. You need to learn how to deal with things like that as a person. Life doesn't always go your way.

Quote:Zac - I agree that a newbie should work on both lifestyle and approaching. If you gave him a year of approaching vs a year of developing a cool lifestyle, the cool lifestyle would be much more worth it I think. [quote]

You say both is good but then you go on to say one is better. Certainly if you are going to only do one work on your lifestyle. We agree. I don't think anyone is endorsing an approach only lifestyle. That's very opposite of PM rolls. Working on your lifestyle by definition makes your own life better. That's the best thing for any person. Like you said though, they should do that and approach women or simply even try to become more social.

[quote]The approaching lifestyle would be stressful and full of flakes/discouragement but possibly some success depending on his looks/social skills.

That's for pretty much any guy new to this even if you they are working on your lifestyle. There will be guys that don't have this problem but there are many guys who do.

I think you are taking a super anti-pua stance here. I don't think it's at all PUAish to suggest at first you might end up approaching a lot of girls and getting rejected a lot. A lot of guys haven't developed the social skills to not have this happen. I think as you move on through your life you'll find that it just usually ends up only clicking with a certain percentage of women. It can certainly be higher than average depending on a lot of factors.

This trend has just as much to do with your preferences as well. You don't realize that you've already yourself rejected a good amount of women around you, just not as directly as women have to because you approach them. It doesn't matter how cool you are because not all women are going to be into you no matter what. Probability says a pretty high percentage aren't going to end up in any sort of relationship with you no matter what. This means that who ever you are you probably stand to face a lot of rejection.

I think a big part about getting with girls is seeing your opportunities. It's not just about approaching, it's about approaching smart. When you first start out this can be a really hard skill to hone. You are basically talking about a guy who has all his shit together, has been doing this for years, has a great idea when a girl is into him, ect. We are just trying to explain o a guy that is clearly pretty new at this stuff what it's likely to expect. I don't know if 90/10 really is the magic number but it seems at least for me it's close.

What I'm guessing is that your friend gets rejected way more than he "approaches" he probably just approaches in very subtle ways and knows when a girl is into him or not. I don't approach many girls at say a party. I just do my thing and I know for the most part what girls would like to be approached by me. It's kind of the same at the bar. It took me a long time to figure that out though. I'm still not perfect at it.

[shadow]

You can only get rejected if you let yourself be. A random girl has absolutely no effect on me, because I don't know anything about her except that she is hot. So yeah, I don't care. I've been rejected 1000s of times but eventually I stopped giving a fuck about percentages and all that crap. Hit on as many girls as necessary to get the job done. There are two guideposts to this stuff: escalation and connection. Do those two and you will be golden. Nothing else matters and rejection doesn't exist for people who have a strong identity. They know they can't be rejected by a random stranger. That will be like being hurt because a homeless guy said that I'm a piece of shit. Whatever.

[Chaos]

(06-05-2012 04:16 AM)Zac Wrote:  You don't realize that you've already yourself rejected a good amount of women around you, just not as directly as women have to because you approach them.

If I enter a club with 40 women I'll probably reject 30 to 35 of them just based on looks who are the ones I don't approach. Talk about rejection / success rate.

[crazyhorse]

I can definetly see where James is coming from and I agree 100% with him. Lifestyle is always going to provide you with the most leverage, the same goes for choosing a demographic that you're compatible with.

This is a pretty good article, where he talks about the rol of environment:

http://anti-pua-johnny.blogspot.de/2012/...-work.html

He's a 5f8 indian guy who mostly focuses on environments with an international audience. His blog is definetly worth checking out. He actually took a bootcamp with Rob Judge, hated it, had to do street approaches and only had rejections. Those were like 90 rejections or so. Which brings me to my next point:

What's up with glorifying rejection?

As if it is some badge of honour "has just gotten rejected 20 times tonight". Awesome! Off course if you don't approach 30-35 women in a night, you are "kinda" rejecting them, but it may be worth to ask these women whether they felt rejected in the first place. I don't think I could leave the house anymore, I mean all those girls whose feelings are hurt because of me. I must be such a bad person......

oh and why did Thor get banned?

[Zac]

No one is saying don't improve your lifestyle. I don't think Chaos would ever endorse that. I think that is probably advice #1 from most people here. That's not what we are talking bout in this thread though. We are talking about average success rates when approaching women.

It's not a badge of honor to get rejected, it's just a reality that it's going to happen so it's good learn to get over it. Also, if I don't approach 35 women out of 40, I definitely did reject them. It's not kinda. They probably aren't as aware of it or care as much though. That's just life.

[Mark]

Three Fundamentals:

1. Lifestyle - increase your leverage and opportunities
2. Courage - rejection is going to happen, be able to deal with it
3. Calibration - relate and empathize with other.

All three are important. None of them should be excluded. None of them should be solely focused on either.

I agree that getting rejected for rejections sake is kind of silly... unless of course it's just part of having a fun night.

[crazyhorse]

(06-05-2012 04:51 PM)Zac Wrote:  No one is saying don't improve your lifestyle. I don't think Chaos would ever endorse that. I think that is probably advice #1 from most people here. That's not what we are talking bout in this thread though. We are talking about average success rates when approaching women.

It's not a badge of honor to get rejected, it's just a reality that it's going to happen so it's good learn to get over it. Also, if I don't approach 35 women out of 40, I definitely did reject them. It's not kinda. They probably aren't as aware of it or care as much though. That's just life.

Sure, but you can't compare those rejections (the 35 out of 40) with a guy who gets rejected 35 times if he approached 35 women. That's just absurd and I don't really like those type of rationalizations. That's also why I said "perhaps you should ask whether these women felt like they were getting rejected", let alone take into account who's self-esteem will take the most damage.

[Zac]

You can't compare them because they are different. I wasn't comparing them. Obviously it's different for men becuase we have to get rejected to our faces. The reality is though we reject just as many women that reject us in person, if not more.

You probably have no idea what it's like to be a girl and go to a bar and not get approached when a lot of other girls do. I'd imagine that's hard as well. Apples and oranges though.

Why is your self esteem taking a hit if you get rejected? That seems like a problem.

Tim helped me expand on this. The other day I danced with a girl and one of my friends came in to help me because we were in a big group. He picked a girl and danced with her as well. Every girl in the group knew that we picked those two girls to dance. We didn't ask any of the others to dance. This was a very subtle rejection but a rejection nonetheless.

If I go into a bar and there are 100 women and I only choose to approach 3, I've rejected 97% of the women there. Some of them might realize it when I walk by them and don't give them a second look. Some might see me come up to their friend and introduce myself and know I'm only interested in their friend and not them.

It's far different being a girl. I'm not trying to be egotistical and say all girls notice me but you have to realize we reject women all the time (at least 90%) and some of them probably notice as well. It's a different kind of rejection.

Also, girls don't approach you like we approach them. I could count to a very high number how many girls have said hey to me on facebook, told me they thought something I did was cool, ect. Girls don't just come up to you and say "Hey I want to date you", they are a lot more roundabout. On the social networking site Badoo for example 98% of women just send you a smile or say hello. I've rejected plenty of women who have taken this approach but it saves them from the more direct rejection we face by making more direct approaches. Rejection is everywhere, it happens to everyone, it's not something to be chased after but it's certainly something to get used to.

[crazyhorse]

You're confusing a lot of things. The 97% of the women that you didn't approached, didn't felt rejected by you. Therefore this can't be seen as a rejection.

When I mention the term rejection, I'm referring to the feeling of "he or she doesn't want me". Do you honestly think that 97% of the women in the room feel rejected by you, just because you didn't approach them? I'm definetly not claiming that I possess such a level of manliness, off course you neither, but the point remains that if they didn't felt rejected by you, it can't be seen as a rejection. Let's take another example. Let's say those 3 women you approached shut you down, all of a sudden another girl who's also there that evening approaches you and you make out. Wait didn't you rejected 97% of the women in the room by not approaching? Am I missing something here?

I' not claiming that women don't face rejection, far from it. But saying that just because you didn't approach her, you rejected her, is a pretty big statement. What your logic doesn't adress is the fact that she has to like the idea that you're approaching here. Even with the group of girls you approached, those girls that you didn't dance with, who knows, maybe they had boyfriends, maybe they were happy that you didn't annoyed them? You can't say that they felt rejected just because you weren't dancing with them.

And this type of logic is far cry from a girl who never gets approached and thus feels rejected. And this is they key here, does it feel like a rejection to her. But saying that women face more rejection just because not every guy in the room approaches her, is just downright absurd.

[Zac]

Quote:You're confusing a lot of things. The 97% of the women that you didn't approached, didn't felt rejected by you. Therefore this can't be seen as a rejection.

How do you know this?

Honestly, sure those girls could have had boyfriends. But they didn't get approached. It might not hurt them because they are ok with themselves and their lives (just like I am when I get rejected) but they still were not selected by me, just like I'm not selected by the girls who reject me. Surely not all of them notice.

Quote:But saying that women face more rejection just because not every guy in the room approaches her, is just downright absurd.

It's a good thing I didn't say that then.

Quote:But saying that just because you didn't approach her, you rejected her, is a pretty big statement.

I don't see it as at all. I am literally rejecting the action of approaching her, which is me rejecting her, even if not directly to her face.

Quote:What your logic doesn't adress is the fact that she has to like the idea that you're approaching here.

I don't know if I like the fact I'm approaching a girl until I get to know the girl. By this logic any girl that rejects me makes it so that I can just say that I didn't like the idea I was approaching her so I did not actually get rejected.

Again, the rejection is different but it's still rejection. I have rejected almost 99.9% of all women I have ever met. I'm sure some of them felt that rejection however subtle it may have been.

[crazyhorse]

Zac

For a rejection to happen one of both parties must have expressed desire for the other. If the other person doesn't accept the previous person, then that is called a rejection. If you claim that you rejected her just because you didn't choose her, it's not a rejection. It's only a rejection if she wants you or want something from you. A little example should illustrate this: two people are unattracted to each other and find each other repulsive, therefore they don't approach each other. Do you think they would feel rejected? See this is where your logic is false.

(06-05-2012 04:51 PM)Zac Wrote:  It's not a badge of honor to get rejected, it's just a reality that it's going to happen so it's good learn to get over it. Also, if I don't approach 35 women out of 40, I definitely did reject them. It's not kinda. They probably aren't as aware of it or care as much though. That's just life.

If I read this correctly, you clearly state that you didn't just kinda rejected these women purely because you didn't approach them. I don't see how you can claim that you didn't said it. It's right in front of the screen.

[Mark]

All I see on this thread is a lot of mental masturbation and arguing about something that doesn't really matter.

[Zac]

I think my main point is that our success rates are low because we approach, women's success rate with you is just as low they just don't get rejected directly to your face. I agree that it mostly doesn't matter at all though. It just explains the "phenomenon" of having a 90/10% ratio because all women around you have the same ratio if not lower, they just don't approach you and find out about it. I don't think it has anything to do with PUA, it's just how life works. We just happen to see it because we put ourselves in that position more often to find out first hand.

[Creatine Dreams]

I just do not want to go below the Mendoza line...

[crazyhorse]

(06-05-2012 08:14 PM)Zac Wrote:  I think my main point is that our success rates are low because we approach, women's success rate with you is just as low they just don't get rejected directly to your face. I agree that it mostly doesn't matter at all though. It just explains the "phenomenon" of having a 90/10% ratio because all women around you have the same ratio if not lower, they just don't approach you and find out about it. I don't think it has anything to do with PUA, it's just how life works. We just happen to see it because we put ourselves in that position more often to find out first hand.

I agree with this, I just find that your argumentation is far off..... To me it sounded more like a rationalization for low succes rates (which we all have). Like oh don't worrry if you've just gotten rejected 500 times, you have already rejected 99,7% of the women out there.

I still think it's weird though.

(06-05-2012 07:55 PM)Zac Wrote:  

Quote:I don't see it as at all. I am literally rejecting the action of approaching her, which is me rejecting her, even if not directly to her face.

[quote]What your logic doesn't adress is the fact that she has to like the idea that you're approaching here.

I don't know if I like the fact I'm approaching a girl until I get to know the girl. By this logic any girl that rejects me makes it so that I can just say that I didn't like the idea I was approaching her so I did not actually get rejected.

Again, the rejection is different but it's still rejection. I have rejected almost 99.9% of all women I have ever met. I'm sure some of them felt that rejection however subtle it may have been.

these arguments still don't fly with me....

[Zac]

Quote:To me it sounded more like a rationalization for low succes rates (which we all have).

It's not an excuse. It's just how reality seems to work for most people.

[crazyhorse]

(06-05-2012 08:48 PM)Zac Wrote:  

Quote:To me it sounded more like a rationalization for low succes rates (which we all have).

It's not an excuse. It's just how reality seems to work for most people.

A rationalization doesn't have to be an excuse. An excuse is a rationalization for not doing something. A rationalization just means reationalizing an emotions, that's it.

Seriously so if a guy has just gotten rejected 500 times, you're going to tell him oh don't worry you've also rejected 99,7% of the women out there? Yeah, that's going to put a smile on his face

I'll leave it at this ...

[Zac]

Actually, that gives me a lot of peace of mind personally but to each their own. The reality for me is I reject most women because they aren't for me therefore most women are likely to reject me because I am not for them.

[Chaos]

(06-05-2012 05:26 PM)Mark Wrote:  I agree that getting rejected for rejections sake is kind of silly... unless of course it's just part of having a fun night.

Once I approached a girl and opened with "Hi, I'm too lazy to actually have a conversation but I was hoping my looks were enough"... I got rejected in a matter of seconds but man, the look on her face... was the moment of the night

And no, I'm not advocating rejection. I'm just saying is part of life and you shouldn't care too much about it because it's gonna happen, no matter what. And if you try to avoid it too much or are too bothered by it then you're missing the point and will start being afraid of it.

Of course, if you approach 90 women and all of them reject you is very possible you're doing something wrong in the first place so it's worth to take a look at what it is.

[Jack Sparrow]

You guys need to stop using the word "rejection". It sounds horrible and definitely a blow to your self esteem.

I think Mark and GoodLookingLoser use the word "not available". I like that much better.

If you approach a girl and she's on the way to the toilet and she say,"Oh sorry, I am in a rush". You are not rejected. She's not available.

If she has a boyfriend, she's not available.

If she celebrating her raise with co-worker and doesn't want to talk to a stranger, she's not available.

If she's scare of strangers and only meet guys through friends, then she's not available.

You are not approaching to see if she likes you or not. You are approaching to give her a chance/opportunity. If she's available, then make the best of the moment, and if you hit it off great, if not both party have something to go home and talk about.

If 9/10 girls you approach tell you - "You are ugly, I don't like your clothes, I don't like your personality, I don't like YOU." Yea, then you are getting rejected. In that case, you probably shouldn't cold approach coz it will really hurt your confidence and personal development.

[Drewid]

That said, the argument that women don't notice who you don't notice, doesn't really fly.

[Warped Mindless]

While one shouldn't let "rejection" bother them, they also shouldn't use the fact that their not bothered as an excuse for sucking.

"Oh it doesn't matter that I got rejected 499 times before I finally got laid. Rejection doesn't bother me so I don't care."

Its okay (and even awesome) if rejection doesn't bother you, however, its also important to keep a grasp on reality and realize if your getting rejected more than you should and if you can improve.