Low success rate after a year, time for a strategy change?

[newsnowman]

Hey guys. I've been an avid reader of postmasculine for a while now but I just only recently registered a forum account. So let me introduce myself first.

I'm an Asian guy in my mid-twenties, currently living in the Netherlands, university-level educated, running a small business. I think I'm ok-looking (not overweight, not too skinny, but not muscular either) though rather short compared to the country's average. I like to be nice to people and to be interested and caring. I wouldn't say that I am or was the typical nice guy but I used to be rather shy.

2.5-3 years ago I was very depressed. I had friends. I had good education. I had skills. I had work. I had loving parents. I had traveled to many countries. I was confident of my professional skills. But the lack success with girls killed me inside. A good female friend of mine sympathized with my lack of success with girls and gave me The Game as a birthday present. This was how I entered the PUA scene and up till today I'm still very grateful to her because that book bootstrapped a big journey in my life. The PUA community gave me hope that not all was lost. For the past one and a half year I've been working on myself like mad. I realized from the beginning that the PUA gimmicks were just that, gimmicks, but that there are useful concepts that I could use. Today I have more interesting hobbies (not that I didn't already have some, but I now have more). I feel more confident now, not only with women but also in general. I can strike up a pleasant conversation with almost anyone most of the time. I make approaching girls a habit.

I feel much happier today than I was 2 years ago. And yet when it comes to finding a girlfriend, the results are less than satisfactory. I think on average I can get 1 date every 2-3 weeks but I've only slept with 1 girls in the past 1.5 years (she's a total sweetheart; if we were more compatible personality-wise I would have made her my girlfriend). I've been wondering what I'm doing wrong but I can't figure out any clear answers. All my female friends think that I'm smart, sweet and fun and they don't know either why I can't find a girlfriend.

Here are a few highlights in my dating life from the past 2-3 months:

• I'm very good at day game these days. Most girls I approach respond in a friendly manner, even when they reject me. I've found that acting as normal and casual as possible and not trying to impress her works best. That said, my day game success rate (number of non-flaky phone numbers) is still ridiculously low.
  • It appears that 75% of all girls that I approach are not single. In fact, I've noticed that if a girl is friendly and interesting then there's an 80% chance that she's taken.
  • Most of the single girls that I meet appear to be too nervous/shy or do not seem to have interesting personalities.
  • I've noticed that a *lot* of girls don't have any hobbies, all they do besides studying and working is shopping with their girlfriends. This makes it really hard for me to be interested in them most of the time.
  • I think I get 1 phone number every 10 approaches.
  • A pretty large number of girls tell me that they don't know me very well and don't think it's a good idea to meet for coffee, despite me having done my best to deeply connect with them during the initial interaction. Unfortunately it's not possible to build up comfort over a longer period of time because these are cold approaches and I usually never meet them again.
  • Most of my day game interactions last less than 30 minutes. People are busy during the day and can't talk for too long.
    
• Most of my recent dates began as a simple coffee date near my home. I would get to know her, show interest in her, and (following Chase Amante's advise of moving fast) I would invite her over to my home. All of them agreed. Once I'm at my home I would dance with them, show them some interesting books and make a move on them within an hour. Most of them resist, saying that I'm being too fast. I make the girl's comfort my priority so I would tell them that I respect their boundaries, take a step back and try to escalate again later. If they still resist I would stop trying at some point. But no matter what happens, I always stay friendly and respectful and escort them to the train station like a gentleman.
  

It's clear that my current strategy is not working. These are the things I plan on changing in the near future:

• Changing my lifestyle by moving to campus. This is how my life
  style looks like right now:
  • I live in a city that's an hour away from my university. Most of my friends do not live in my current city, and the people in this city tend to be very reserved and not open to contact with new people.
  • So travel is a big part of my current lifestyle. I have to travel to another city for almost any fun activity. I meet quite some girls through public transportation this way.
  • My study consists of 98% men. If I want to meet girls I have to look outside my study.
  • I've followed salsa classes for 2 years but I've found it to be a horrible way to meet single and interested girls. Most girls that take salsa classes are taken. All the other girls I've met so far don't seem to be interested in me. After the class most of the participants go home immediately and usually don't have time to sit down and chat over a drink, making it even harder to really get to know them. Compared to this, cold approaching during the day is better because there's an infinite number of girls.
  • Kung fu and theater classes are not any better.
  • I don't do night game. I hate clubs and I hate staying up late.
    
  Living in my current city makes it relatively hard to meet with people and to build a large social circle. I figured that if I live on campus it would become much easier. After all, psychological studies have shown that people like people that they see often. I think that if I join a few student clubs I would be able meet new girls on a regular basis with significantly less effort than day game cold approaching.
• Move a little slower and concentrate more on having fun. I have no idea how Chase is able to sleep with girls on the same date but I've never succeeded at it so far. I'm actually wondering whether moving this fast is hurting my chances. Chase advises against having too much fun but lately I'm wondering whether I naturally attract the kind of girls who prefer to move slower. It seems that I mainly attract Asian girls from Asia. I've had white girlfriends before but it seems most girls that I go on dates with nowadays are Asian Asians.
• Work out and get visible muscles. I'm actually having huge doubts about whether this is effective and whether it's worth the effort. I'm neither overweight nor skinny. I look healthy and I'm dressed well. I'm short but I don't know whether having more muscles will compensate for that.
  
  That said, a friend of mine is about as tall as I am, but he's more muscular (as well as being dark-skinned) and he has a lot more success with girls than I do. So maybe having a muscular body is important after all?
  

Any more insights or tips would be much appreciated.

[baller08]

newsnowman - it's good that you took the time to give us some background, but truthfully speaking without actually seeing your body language, it is very difficult to pinpoint your exact problems.

My best advice is, that friend of yours that is good with women, hang out with him and observe how he BEHAVES. Not what he does...but how he BEHAVES and more importantly how he THINKS. It's not the muscles...let's get that out of the way first.

If I were to give my best educated guess, I would say that you're not giving off enough of a sexual edge and a challenging edge. I would say that given everything you wrote, you're not making the women work enough to invest in you. In PUA terms you're lacking Qualification. 90% of men who can't get women to look at them in a sexual way are for those two reasons: Not Challenging enough and not giving off enough of a sexual vibe. Some men are ashamed of their own sexuality and even though you make a move that comes across.

The other clue for me is men who have a lot of female friends but they say, "I don't know why you can't find a girlfriend" also tips me off to those two issues. The irony is most of those female friends are probably girls you would want to date or have sex with but they've put you in the friend zone. They put you in the friend zone for the same reason why the girls you're trying to sleep with are putting up resistance (ie: boyfriends, saying they don't know you enough, pulling away from kissing, etc).

But again...find a guy that has no problems with getting sexual with women and learn from him. Stuff like this is very difficult to pinpoint on a forum because 99% of it is body language and vibe.


Edited to add: This is an exerpt from my blog about Balanced Relationship Model

High Intimacy, Low Passion, Low Commitment
This is basically a very good friendship. MANY men across the world knows how this feels; it’s called the dreaded “friend zone”. They’re always the friend and never the boyfriend. Women will feel very close to these guys but they don’t feel any sexual or romantic attraction towards them.

This looks like something you suffer from. You can make the woman feel comfortable and you're quick to share things with them and vice versa (Intimacy) but you lack Passion (sexual vibe/edge) and Committment (you don't get them to invest in you, ie Qualification).

[newsnowman]

Hey baller08, thanks for your feedback. Let me reply to some of your points so that you can have a more accurate image of me.

My female friends are not girls I want sex with but that have friend zoned me. All of my best female friends actually already had relationships when I met them, or are lesbian. I'm not being friend zoned, the option was never there to begin with. Whether I find them attractive is a different story of course but even if they'd never sleep with me I'd still want to be their friend.

Unfortunately I don't have any friends who are good with women and who are single. The muscular friend I talked about has been in a relationship for almost a year now and during the short time that he was single I've never seen him approach girls. His current girlfriend was actually his friend; he befriended her while he was together with his ex-girlfriend. I'm hoping that by actively joining student life I would befriend a guy who's super good with girls and learn from him.

[baller08]

Ok, but why did you say he "has a lot more success with girls " than you did?

In either case, I stand by my educated guess in those 2 areas. Seeing you and talking to you in person though will be the only real way to tell for sure.

[newsnowman]

He's had multiple relationships in the past few years. I haven't had one in several years now, so as far as I'm concerned he successful with girls.

[baller08]

Ooookay so then talk to him about how he thinks. Just because he has a gf now doesn't change how he is in terms of his ability with women.

Not really sure why you're arguing here then lol!

[elderado]

(04-09-2012 06:13 PM)newsnowman Wrote:  Most of my recent dates began as a simple coffee date near my home. I would get to know her, show interest in her, and (following Chase Amante's advise of moving fast) I would invite her over to my home. All of them agreed. Once I'm at my home I would dance with them, show them some interesting books and make a move on them within an hour. Most of them resist, saying that I'm being too fast. I make the girl's comfort my priority so I would tell them that I respect their boundaries, take a step back and try to escalate again later. If they still resist I would stop trying at some point. But no matter what happens, I always stay friendly and respectful and escort them to the train station like a gentleman.

I've read a lot of Chase's stuff, and he does elude to moving faster than what you say you're moving.

http://www.girlschase.com/content/how-ge...-ever-need

"Instead, set a timer for yourself -- no girl's allowed alone with you for more than 10 minutes without getting kissed."



If you're saying she's in your house and you're dancing and looking at books for an hour and THEN you go make your move, I could see it as building up anxiety in the both of you. I've been there and waiting too long just amps up the importance of that 'first move'.

[Warped Mindless]

You said you get 1 - 2 dates a month and yet have only slept with one chick. You also said that most women tell you they have a BF and give you other objections. Like the poster above me said, its hard to tell without seeing you but I'm gonna guess that your not making yourself a "sexual threat."

A big give a way about this is that you have so many women come over to your place but none of them have any interest in sleeping with you. This shows me that they just consider you a friend. Even during the day you need at least a slight sexual spark.

[newsnowman]

(04-09-2012 08:55 PM)elderado Wrote:  If you're saying she's in your house and you're dancing and looking at books for an hour and THEN you go make your move, I could see it as building up anxiety in the both of you. I've been there and waiting too long just amps up the importance of that 'first move'.

Do you mean you've had more success once you spent less time before kissing her?

Don't get me wrong. I do touch her during all that time. When sitting on the couch I would put my hand on her waist and things like that.

There's quite a lot of contradictory advise our there. For example Fluffy McGee advises against rushing things. This, combined with the fact that girls tell me I'm moving too fast, makes it quite hard for me to figure out what I'm doing wrong.

But then again maybe my population sample is biased because most of the girls are Asian Asians, and I have the gut feeling that they tend to be more sexually reserved than western girls. Dating in China is very different: as far as I know most couples start out as friends and don't get together until they know each other well.
I haven't had much luck bringing western girls home so far but once I succeed in doing that I should definitely try out whether moving fast works better on them.

Quote:You said you get 1 - 2 dates a month and yet have only slept with one chick. You also said that most women tell you they have a BF and give you other objections. Like the poster above me said, its hard to tell without seeing you but I'm gonna guess that your not making yourself a "sexual threat."

They tell me they have a boyfriend during my approach. During my approach I flat out ask them whether they're single and tell them that I'm interested, so if I never go on a date with a girl who has a boyfriend. In the past I managed to invite girls over who only had the intention to be friends but recently I've started making clear that it's a date.

In the past I would go to them, often traveling for an hour, but these days I would invite them to come to me instead. Making them travel for an hour or more should get them more invested in me as well as weeding out all the girls who aren't into me enough. But I'm still hitting this sexual wall.

How does this "sexual spark" look like? During my dates I make sure that I touch them often and escalate appropriately. Before arriving at my home I would have at least touched them on their arms, shoulders, waist and walked with them arm in arm, and I would have made extensive eye contact during conversation. Do I need more than this? If I can *see* an example of sexual spark during the day done right that would help me a lot.

[baller08]

We can't show you this sexual spark on a forum so your idea of meeting a couple of guys who are good at escalating sexually will help you greatly.

Also, if you ask a girl if she has a boyfriend, 99% will you tell you yes because you're already starting off too interested. You haven't developed any attraction, interest, or challenge in them at all. Yes, if a guy has a lot of experience and his frame is very good he can get away with this, but right now you can't.

This is where casual openers and having a list of things to talk about is helpful. This is where having a solid routine as a framework or guideline will help. It doesn't have to be a routine based on something you read on a forum, but until you get to the point where you're super comfortable with having beautiful women in your life, then you're going to have to have something you can fall back on.

Routines are not a PUA thing. It's a presentation thing. Lots of guys knock it but have nothing else to offer other than, "You're beautiful and I had to come over to talk to you" or "Are you single?". Again, if you can pull that off, you wouldn't be on this forum asking for advice. So for now, don't just go gunning in without some rehearsed framework.

Actors don't go on stage without a script. Singers don't just perform without rehearsal. I'm a magician and believe me everything I do in front of an audience is rehearsed to the most smallest of details BUT when I get in front of people everything looks natural and I can adjust according to my audience. It looks like I'm just having a conversation with people instead of being a robot. I've earned that ability because I rehearsed the shit out of my framework.

You want to give off the feeling of being "smooth"? Rehearse till it's not robotic.

BTW: No offense, but you're not good at day game at all. All in all it sounds like your bigger core issue is you give off vibes that get you put into The Friend Zone. It's still an educated guess at best but the more you post the more it looks like you're just not giving off any kind of sexual vibe and you definitely don't make women invest enough in you before you invest in them.

---

As for the "you're moving too fast". Most guys hear this and they think in physical time. That's not what the woman means. She means in emotional time. It means that she isn't attracted to you enough physically and/or emotionally to get physical.

If she was then she could be making out with you within 10 minutes or having sex with you in the first or second date. If she isn't, you could could spend months with her and she still would think you're "moving too fast". It really goes back to the Friend Zone thing.

[Halo Effect]

Hey newsnowman! Welcome. I'm Dutch, and I believe there are several other Dutchies as well on these forums.

One simple change that will boost your results: have your dates in he evening in stead of during the day, and drink alcohol in stead of coffee. Having a "coffee date" is relatively non-threatening and asexual. If you yourself are on the shy side and have trouble being sexual, then this isn't helping. Also, for many girls, alcohol equals less inhibition and more horniness. It may even help you open up and be more ballsy as well. Although you shouldn't be dependent on alcohol, but you know what I mean!

It's excellent that you have the date near your place and that you always get them to your place. That's really good. Being more sexual is probably very important as well. But having the dates later and with alcohol will boost your results with no additional effort.

---

I am not as big a fan of routines as baller is. Nor are many people on this site, as you are probably aware after lurking for a while. The thing is, if you felt comfortable enough to express your true personality and sexual desire without batting an eye, and had an interesting life that you felt passionate about on top of that, you wouldn't be having any problems.

Becoming aware of and confronting the issues that are holding you back, and taking action to enrich your life further, will work beautifully in the long term. Also, I believe investing in learning conversational techniques is far more useful than learning routines. You can learn those in Mark's conversations program. Here's a post I wrote a while ago with some of what I know about conversations: link. Besides the things I wrote about there, don't be afraid to disagree with a girl, to state your own opinions, or to bust her balls a bit. If you're being too much of a Nice Guy you probably should do that more often.

Edit: I just read you only date Asian girls. They might actually be more conservative and shy than Dutch girls. What I wrote still applies though.

[newsnowman]

Hey Halo Effect, good to see a fellow Dutchman here. One thing that I've been wondering all this time is how much all the PUA advise applies to Dutch girls. I read lay reports everywhere from people who day game but I cannot even imagine a Dutch girl jumping into bed with me during the first date. Ok that's actually not true: I actually bedded my first girlfriend (6 years ago) one day after I met her but *in general* I cannot imagine this happening. Maybe you have different experiences?

Thanks everyone for your attempts at helping me so far. I need to go over all this and figure out whether I am being sexual enough during my interactions or whether that's my sticking point. It's hard to even figure out whether I'm going into the right direction or not.

I do have the feeling that I'm not yet good enough at flirting. I'm good at showing courage (many girls tell me that they think I have courage when I directly approach them) and showing interest but the only sexual vibe I give off is through touching them. Are there any resources out there that can help me learn how to flirt better and how to give off a better sexual vibe?

[Halo Effect]

newsnowman,

Dutch girls love sex as much as girls of any other nationality, and they're probably more liberated than average.

Just from my own experience:

My last three first dates were from online dating (paiq.nl). First girl: ended up at my place (had drinks close to my place in the evening), we made out. Second girl we had drinks and then went to my place again, we made out and she gave me a blowjob and I fingered her. She really wanted sex but she had her period. Third girl also drinks and then she slept over and we didn't have sex, only fingering and so on, if I recall correctly, but she turned into a longer term open relationship thing.

Even some of the more conservative girls I've talked with have had one night stands. A decent number of girls I've talked to have had "sex dates", where they meet a guy knowing they will have sex. I've done that, too. The quickest I ever got sexual with a girl was on vacation when a Dutch girl gave me a blowjob in the bushes next to the sidewalk, mere minutes after we met each other for the first time on that side walk. She wanted sex but I didn't have a condom and refused..

So ehm.. Yeah, Dutch girls want sex.

And it's completely normal to NOT have sex the first date. A make out and another date is perfect. Focus on creating a connection. Don't try to use her to get sex. She will sense that. In stead, focus on creating a good experience for the both of you. This can mean sex (sexual tension, escalation, arousal, pleasure... those are GOOD things!), but if you approach it from the perspective of giving her a great experience, it feels very different.

[newsnowman]

3 dates from Paiq? That's amazing, I've never had success on Paiq. I use pretty much every conversational technique I've learned but I can't seem to get them interested, or in case I can it looks like they never have the intention to meet anyone in real life. But maybe I'm not trying hard enough, I spend very little time on Paiq. Have you ever won a BattleDate?

[baller08]

(04-10-2012 08:17 PM)newsnowman Wrote:  3 dates from Paiq? That's amazing, I've never had success on Paiq. I use pretty much every conversational technique I've learned but I can't seem to get them interested, or in case I can it looks like they never have the intention to meet anyone in real life. But maybe I'm not trying hard enough, I spend very little time on Paiq. Have you ever won a BattleDate?

Get out of online dating, especially if you're still on the improvement path. Online dating is a death trap for most guys. You have women who are on there just for attention, you have old photos, tons of hidden drama, lying, etc. This is especially damaging for guys who haven't achieved a level of consistent success in the real world because you don't have the experience to spot any of these things.

Plus, online dating gives a lot of guys an illusion that they're improving because they're getting responses, but it's all just a lot of mental masturbation.

Dating and attraction is 90% body language, facial expressions, voice tonality, sexual vibes, and how you interact with people around you. None of that is possible with online dating. It's like buying a car online when you haven't seen it, sat in it, or driven it in person. It's so one-dimensional.

Also guys start to get some "potentials" online and think that's the same as getting them in the real world. It's all an attempt to avoid actual rejections.

If you've honestly had success with it, then certainly keep doing it....results are the only thing that matters. (Well that and quality of results of course). But for the majority of you guys on the path to improvement...get off the online dating trap. Get out there and take your rejections like a man and learn from them.

[Halo Effect]

(04-10-2012 08:17 PM)newsnowman Wrote:  3 dates from Paiq? That's amazing, I've never had success on Paiq. I use pretty much every conversational technique I've learned but I can't seem to get them interested, or in case I can it looks like they never have the intention to meet anyone in real life. But maybe I'm not trying hard enough, I spend very little time on Paiq. Have you ever won a BattleDate?

I sent you a PM.

It's true that some girls are only looking for attention or play games. But for me it has been pretty easy to get girls interested on that site. I am doing something right, or they just really like my picture.

[newsnowman]

I know, I've always stayed away from dating sites for exactly the same reasons you mentioned, but it wouldn't hurt to have some extra online practice.

[baller08]

My point is that the practice you're getting isn't nearly as much as you think it is or the quality it should be. The practice you need is body language, voice tonality, etc. etc.....all the things you can't practice online.

That's like trying to get good at your jump shot by throwing crumbled paper in your office garbage can. Yeah you're flicking your wrists and "shooting", but jump shots are about the lower body, about doing it when you're tired, with a hand in your face, and all the things that you can only practice while actually playing on the court.

[elderado]

(04-09-2012 09:54 PM)newsnowman Wrote:  

(04-09-2012 08:55 PM)elderado Wrote:  If you're saying she's in your house and you're dancing and looking at books for an hour and THEN you go make your move, I could see it as building up anxiety in the both of you. I've been there and waiting too long just amps up the importance of that 'first move'.

Do you mean you've had more success once you spent less time before kissing her?

Don't get me wrong. I do touch her during all that time. When sitting on the couch I would put my hand on her waist and things like that.

There's quite a lot of contradictory advise our there. For example Fluffy McGee advises against rushing things. This, combined with the fact that girls tell me I'm moving too fast, makes it quite hard for me to figure out what I'm doing wrong.

What I mean is avoiding that "one big move" that you see on movies and Tv sometimes (i.e guy makes a sudden move for a kiss with no moves prior to it). The article you link to points towards escalating in a progressive way, which sounds like good advice on the surface. My issue with touching/kino is that I had to figure out doing less worked for me more instead of the "always be touching" advice commonly given out. But with that said, I'm still going to go for a kiss early on just to see where her comfort level is with me physically.

Maybe you're overdoing it and causing her discomfort?

[playmaker001]

On a little sidenote, I totally agree with Baller about using routines. Halo mentioned the conversation program instead, but I've been using more "routines" since i started the program. Now that I know more about the art of conversation and the construction it takes to have a good conversation, I'm using "routines" more than ever.

What I did was write everything I'm interested in talking about, everything i'm interested in learning about the girl, and every possible thing most girls are interested in and make MY OWN "outline" as you will, with emphasis on going deeper with each question and building an emotional connection. (I still improvise humor, teasing, getting physical, passing tests.) It's still me, it's still honest, it still comes out natural, and I've been having better conversations and more girls because of it.

With anything you do, structure and perfecting it is the key to success. Even improvisation, a technique BUILT ON coming up with things on the spot, has a structure to it that you are taught when you go to improv classes; and i'm great at improv. All the greatest conversationalists I know of (i.e Howard Stern, Russel Brand, Oprah, every U.S president who has ever led our great nation, etc.) never shows up ill-prepared. If writing things down is the best way to rehearse and practice for you, don't waste another minute and start jotting down "routines" while following correct conversational guidelines.

[Halo Effect]

You have a point playmaker.

Good conversationalists can be good conversationalists because they have made all those techniques into habits. If you have had good conversations with interesting people for thousands and thousands of hours (like some of the people you named), then you're going to be good at conversations, period. If you don't have those habits yet, you can speed things up with your approach.

I don't like gimmicky routines that hide who you are and try to manipulate the girl. But if you go ahead and write down what you find interesting and what you want to know about the girl, and think about how to implement that in conversation, then that actualy sounds very good.

[IdEngager]

(04-11-2012 02:55 AM)playmaker001 Wrote:  All the greatest conversationalists I know of (i.e Howard Stern, Russel Brand, Oprah, every U.S president who has ever led our great nation, etc.) never shows up ill-prepared. If writing things down is the best way to rehearse and practice for you, don't waste another minute and start jotting down "routines" while following correct conversational guidelines.

I feel like you should write these plans down on official stationary and label the memo "The Talking Points of Mack".

Boom.

[juggernaut92]

Be more aggressive. A lot of women are turned on by how much you want them. Expect token resistance.

[Jack Sparrow]

You are too hard on yourself.

Asian girls, especially the ones from Asia. Coffee dates. And trying to have sex all in less than 3-4 hours. That sounds pretty hard to me.

I know some people do it, but even Mystery and Style had the 7 hour rule (on average you need to spend 7 hours with a girl before sex). You compress this by moving the girl through different venues, not Coffee Shop --> Bedroom.

I don't know how sexual you appear to women, but it's safe to say that at the beach, girls don't look at you like a piece of meat. I think the direction for you is to take it slower. On average it takes me 2-3 days before I have sex with a girl. So try to take girls to different venues on each date so after 2-3 daytes you've been to 5 different places.

Also, the reality is alcohol loosen everyone up. So take a girl to a lounge, have a drink, back to your place, have another drink. Don't get drunk though...

Good luck, and give yourself more credit. Getting 1-2 dates a month from cold approach is pretty good!