Is feeling Jealous being Needy?

[Mark]

Look baller, you can have your own views on jealousy. But making assumptions about myself or Salaam, what we believe or how we lead our lives is a pretty weak way to make an argument and an easy way to piss off the people you're trying to reach.

You know very little about me or Salaam, or polyamory... or about evolution and genetics for that matter. You read a book on jealousy. That's great. But there's more information and other experiences out there and I doubt you're an expert on all of it. So spare us the lecture.

I don't pretend to know everything, but I like to think I recognize what I don't know. May be time for you to humble up a bit and do the same before you start offending people. I plan on reading that book you posted in the next couple weeks, but at the moment, it's hard to take much of what you've said in this thread seriously.

[Tim]

I don't get the big upset here. A little bit of jealousy is a healthy thing. Too much makes people do unhealthy things. Most people would be angry and betrayed if their partner slept with another person. Some people have a type of understanding and trust that makes this ok. Why is any of this a big deal?

On a related note Mark; when you were an open relationship in the past, obviously you and your girlfriend were both sleeping with other girls. Was she also sleeping with other guys? And did she sleep with other girls without you there, or just in a threesome with you?

[Salaam]

There's a lot of projections and assumptions in your post, my dude. Instead of portraying me as naive or afraid of commitment, how about you take a step back and consider for a second that maybe I don't think like you. Straight up, we're not working with the same mental model.

What you see as useful, I see as fallacy steeped in ignorance, fear, and selfishness. I'm not into having discussions for the purpose of winning an argument, so if you got anything to write besides "I know what I'm talking about and you don't" then let me know and we can resume this.

And for the record, I have no desire to enter into marriage.

[Mark]

(04-03-2012 09:52 PM)Tim Wrote:  I don't get the big upset here. A little bit of jealousy is a healthy thing. Too much makes people do unhealthy things. Most people would be angry and betrayed if their partner slept with another person. Some people have a type of understanding and trust that makes this ok. Why is any of this a big deal?

I have no idea.

[SeXyBaCk]

I'm just going to come out and claim jealousy is physiological human emotion. It's not pathologic. It's part of the normal spectrum of human emotions, like anger, hurt, joy. Why? All young kids, even before they learn to speak or understand much language, feel jealousy, jealous of their siblings, anxious they're having to share their parents attention and affection or toys even. Yes, to me that is the same thing. It's an anguish of someone taking something away from me that I feel is mine. Jealous is not related to love or liking someone, not at all, you can feel jealous of your friend getting all the attention after all. It's actually more of a complex emotion because it involves something negative for myself, while bringing a potential advantage or gain for someone else. And because we're all good people and should wish the best for those around us... but at my expense? Hum, I think not! RAAAAAAW, I'm going to break me some plates. But it makes sense to me, why jealous also evokes feelings of guilt at times, making it doubly unpleasant.

Now there's also pathologic, crippling jealousy that can reach paranoid proportions. Everyone knows someone whose boyfriend or (more often) girlfriend is overly jealous, making their life hell, till they up and leave. Is this the concern of the OP? I don't think so, though if it is, discuss it with those around you, be open about it, if your jealousy might be reaching such proportions own up to it and then take things from there (work on it).

I know for myself I don't get the whole swinger attitude. My head and heart is in a different place. I've never been interested in having a three-some or swapping sex partners but I accept that people are different, and they should do as they please as long as they don't harm others or put them at risk. I guess one could untrain oneself from feeling jealous/possessive/crushed by seeing ones partner being intimate with others. Or maybe some people just don't feel that way. I've been told I don't have a jealous bone by various women, and sometimes I took it as if I was being told I don't care enough, but I sure know what I'm into and what I'm not into. When I imagine this untraining process to me it would seem more like a series of inflicted emotional traumas I really don't care to subject myself to. Nor can I detect a desire in me that I want multiple spouses myself, what a drag that would be.

The whole thread has turned sort of testy and far away from the OP. Baller, you're convinced of your way, which is fine...but you shouldn't be imposing your way of thinking or values on others, you're coming across as dogmatic. Finally, I think Baller you're betraying one of your own principles which probably is be tolerant and understanding/accepting of others.

[Tux77]

I think people are going to extremes on this.

For most people, having your girlfriend sleep with another man would be devastating, I think. Even if they're not "jealous". Call it cultural conditioning or "human nature" or whatever, but it in practical terms ("practical" as in what applies to our society), there are forms of jealousy, such as that one, that are pretty much acceptable and not "needy at all".

Of course, some people are truly polyamorists or something and don't care too much. We are all different. But I think it's "normal" to think that in exclusive relationships there are certain behaviors that warrant jealousy.

That said, maybe the OP was talking about "needy jealousy". The kind when, even if it's an exclusive relationship, there's no reason to be jealous. Maybe your girlfriend is having lunch with some dude. Or going for a 4-day trip with no cell signal. Do you trust her? Or do you not?

That's the real question, IMO. Is feeling jealousy because your gf hangs out too much with a classmate a "needy behavior". Is it not? Maybe you don't actually trust her, and that classmate is something more. Or maybe you're just being paranoid.

That's where one would ask the question "Is feeling Jealous being Needy?", I think.

[Drewid]

Don't know if this will be helpful, but one of my friends in the Poly community told me to read this when I was talking to her about her lifestyle and how she dealt with jealousy:
http://planetwaves.net/jealousy.html

It's a little touchy-feeley, but I think the thoughts about what it means to think you can "own" someone else's sexuality are at least worth running through your gray matter.

I also know a number of guys who simply aren't jealous. One friend of mine couldn't care less if the girl he's sleeping with has a boyfriend and he's just on the side. He doesn't care if she's all he's getting, even if she's getting it from someone else.

[CharlesB]

I had serious problem with this , when I was "single" . Even when I saw a girl that I was flirting the day before , kissing some guy ,I could feel so jealous that I 'd need two bottles of wine , and some hours in my room to get back to normal. Of course this was an extreme example, sometimes I didn't care at all. That reinforces the fact that jealousy is a emotion (like neediness ) that you can't control all the time.
Now being on a relationship I can see it more clearly.
I know she can feel attracted to other guys , and I also feel and fantasize about other girls but I never talked to her about that.
If I found now she cheats on me , it will ruin my trust on her. It will make me think of her like the most untrustworthy and fake person. But if we reach the point that I openly discuss this subject with her then our relationship will take a very different path. I can imagine this conversation bringing us closer , even if it will turns out ,to some kind of open relationship agreement . But this is the most interesting part. If we discuss this subject and be open about it , there is no feeling of being used or betrayed.
Just free sexual expression instead of repression.
PS. Great article there Drewid. And pushes you to be honest share your truth also. I think it will help me , I haven't finished it yet.

[solo]

One important reason I’m into game is because my jealousy is one of the things driving me to do it. I like this quote from roissy:

“uncontrolled jealousy is your worst enemy. controlled jealousy your best ally”

I respect Mark partly because of his focus on morality on some of his posts, but I find myself disagreeing sometimes and I can’t relate here as I’m the first to admit I’m a very jealous person.

I personally believe that the biological arrangement of women not being able to procreate with more than one memeber of the opposite sex at a time (unlike men) historically made them more monogamous (and hypergamous) than men. I’m no expert but I would guess that the set up during a lot of human history was harems where the few alpha men had exclusive access to a lot of the women, who traded their sexuality and reproductive ability for protection and food etc. Also, since there was no way of determining fatherhood, it is likely that the men wanted to ensure they weren’t being cuckolded . The high costs of pregnancy and the time thereafter also made the girls more inclined to searchig for one quality man. This is why I think men’s sexuality differs from females’ and how I justify wanting to have several girls at the same time, but would not be ok with them having other guys.

The thing is, I’m currently seeing a girl and I’m refraining from hitting on other girls now because I’d feel guilty for it, even though she’s not my girlfriend I don’t want to hurt her (so in a way maybe I’m a hypocrite because I don’t act on my beliefs). This is depite that she’s told me she’s not looking for a relationship and have been playing hard-to-get even after I had sex with her. (She also chose not to see me this weekend and instead go out with her friends and have also otherwise just generally displayed a personality and behaviour which have made me think she’s not relationship material).

But it’s killing me inside because I WANT to approach other girls. I’m a mess right now because of this. I need to sit back and think out a strategy for dealing with this. It's very frustrating, especially since it's so hard to find a satisfying moral discussion and ground.

---

(03-30-2012 08:44 PM)Mark Wrote:  Yeah, if you want to start making, "Other animals do this," leaps, then we could spend all day and night making comparisons. There are species of animals who eat their own babies. Doesn't tell us anything about human behavior.

You have to look at cross-cultural behaviors and pre-historic behaviors to get at what's "human nature," although most evolutionary psychologists and sociobiologists absolutely fucking hate the term "human nature" because they don't believe that it's a static thing -- rather it's fluid both across time and across cultures. Our specific genes only play a partial role in our overall phenotype (external expressions of behavior).

Like I said, epic post coming on this in the next month or two. I want to get it right though.

Did you finish that post yet? Which one is it if I may ask?

[Halo Effect]

Hey solo,

Check out this post by Mark: http://postmasculine.com/ethics-of-being-a-player

I used to have those feelings of guilt you're describing. With my first "girlfriend" I explicitly told her I did NOT want anything serious (which she agreed to), yet I did nothing with any other girl for as long as I dated her, because I didn't want to hurt her feelings.

Now, I feel completely comfortable dating multiple girls, and I'm honest to these girls about what I'm doing.

I think the post Mark was talking about is this one:
http://postmasculine.com/evolution

[Matty]

The concept of alpha males possessing a harem of females that ur describing solo is refferred to as the standard narrative, and its an idea thats really coming under fire. Theres quite a bit of evidence to argue against this. The book Sex at Dawn is a great starting point, and they do quite a bit to dispel a lot of myths about evolutionary psychology that we've been continually fed. As for feeling guilty, the ethics of being a player article is great. I was the guy in the article who wrote in to ask about how i could go about this without "breaking any hearts". It hadnt occurred to me how arrogant and self absorbed that was, to think that i had so much power over a girl that she couldnt make her own decisions. With the last girl i dated, we had a non commital open agreement, and guess what? She didnt get her heart broken or cry and sob when it ended, and we still keep in touch.

[TheImptuous]

(07-28-2012 12:29 PM)solo Wrote:  I personally believe that the biological arrangement of women not being able to procreate with more than one memeber of the opposite sex at a time (unlike men) historically made them more monogamous (and hypergamous) than men.

That's cool, but then why does intrauterine sperm competition exist and why does the human penis function like a sperm-plunger? You know what, just listen to this podcast (with Sex at Dawn co-author Chris Ryan) instead of me typing out a whole point-by-point smarmy reply.

Quote:This is why I think men’s sexuality differs from females’ and how I justify wanting to have several girls at the same time, but would not be ok with them having other guys.

Well, good luck with all that.

[Traindom]

(07-28-2012 12:29 PM)solo Wrote:  One important reason I’m into game is because my jealousy is one of the things driving me to do it. I like this quote from roissy:

“uncontrolled jealousy is your worst enemy. controlled jealousy your best ally”

I respect Mark partly because of his focus on morality on some of his posts, but I find myself disagreeing sometimes and I can’t relate here as I’m the first to admit I’m a very jealous person.

I personally believe that the biological arrangement of women not being able to procreate with more than one memeber of the opposite sex at a time (unlike men) historically made them more monogamous (and hypergamous) than men. I’m no expert but I would guess that the set up during a lot of human history was harems where the few alpha men had exclusive access to a lot of the women, who traded their sexuality and reproductive ability for protection and food etc. Also, since there was no way of determining fatherhood, it is likely that the men wanted to ensure they weren’t being cuckolded . The high costs of pregnancy and the time thereafter also made the girls more inclined to searchig for one quality man. This is why I think men’s sexuality differs from females’ and how I justify wanting to have several girls at the same time, but would not be ok with them having other guys.

The thing is, I’m currently seeing a girl and I’m refraining from hitting on other girls now because I’d feel guilty for it, even though she’s not my girlfriend I don’t want to hurt her (so in a way maybe I’m a hypocrite because I don’t act on my beliefs). This is depite that she’s told me she’s not looking for a relationship and have been playing hard-to-get even after I had sex with her. (She also chose not to see me this weekend and instead go out with her friends and have also otherwise just generally displayed a personality and behaviour which have made me think she’s not relationship material).

But it’s killing me inside because I WANT to approach other girls. I’m a mess right now because of this. I need to sit back and think out a strategy for dealing with this. It's very frustrating, especially since it's so hard to find a satisfying moral discussion and ground.

---

(03-30-2012 08:44 PM)Mark Wrote:  Yeah, if you want to start making, "Other animals do this," leaps, then we could spend all day and night making comparisons. There are species of animals who eat their own babies. Doesn't tell us anything about human behavior.

You have to look at cross-cultural behaviors and pre-historic behaviors to get at what's "human nature," although most evolutionary psychologists and sociobiologists absolutely fucking hate the term "human nature" because they don't believe that it's a static thing -- rather it's fluid both across time and across cultures. Our specific genes only play a partial role in our overall phenotype (external expressions of behavior).

Like I said, epic post coming on this in the next month or two. I want to get it right though.

Did you finish that post yet? Which one is it if I may ask?

I looked through the the site and think that this is the post: http://postmasculine.com/evolution

[solo]

Thanks a lot everyone for your replies, I will look into the articles you recommended.

Matty and Imptuous, I'm sure there are a lot of biologists who are also feminist and therefore push their agenda. There are few scientific fields where the scientists agree on everything, if they did, they would lose their jobs after all. Of course not all human societies were 100% organized in harems, but generally I think it's very plausible and for many reasons.
I'm not a biologist but off the top of my head I could think of several reasons why the penis works as a sperm-plunger. For example, it certainly wasn't an evolutionary disadvantage so it might have been a mutational "accident" that "got stuck". There has also always been some women who were very promiscuous, so for the men who had sex with these women it would even have been an advantage. For any guy, that particular penis-shape might have given women more sexual pleasure, facilitating sexual access with the same woman in the future etc etc.

But anyhow, I'm pretty sure that at least there has never existed any (or very few) societies where WOMEN had their men harems, until now with the Sex and the City-feminism that is. And I don't think we need any scientific evidence to prove that either, it's enough to just point out that men are physically stronger than women.

I swear by evolutionary biology. It has explained virtually all human behaviour I have had or witnessed and I was darwinist in elementary school even before I knew the theory existed and had a name. Just to give but one example, I have never seen a guy who was the most alpha in the girls social circle get dumped. Every guy who got dumped, though, had done something beta prior to that. Yes, girls' tastes and definitions of what is an alpha vary, but put two identical guys in competition for the same girl, and she will choose the one who's most alpha 9 times out of 10.

(07-28-2012 05:31 PM)TheImptuous Wrote:  

Quote:This is why I think men’s sexuality differs from females’ and how I justify wanting to have several girls at the same time, but would not be ok with them having other guys.

Well, good luck with all that.

Growing up, I saw maybe a dozen of guys doing this. It's just a matter of game, money/status/power, looks, location etc. Most important factor is being alpha IMO (and that has somewhat different meanings depending on where you are, but can possibly be summed up as being socially dominant IMO).

[Matty]

People have a tendancy to gather any evidence that supports their beliefs and disregard that which doesnt, hence why people who are attached to evolutionary psychology, or any other dogma for that matter, will seek out and interpret the world around them accordingly. A great quote from the aforementioned book (which you shuould read)

“Rather than a plausible explanation for how we got to be the way we are, the standard narrative is exposed as contemporary moralistic bias packaged to look like science and then projected upon the distant screen of prehistory, rationalizing the present while obscuring the past. Yabba dabba doo.”
― Cacilda Jethá, Sex at Dawn: The Prehistoric Origins of Modern Sexuality

As for a feminist bias, maybe, but you could say the same of a possible misogyny bias among other evolutionary psychologists to justify the standard narrative. So, if evolutionary psychology explains everthing youve seen...ya may just not be looking hard enough. As for harems and gender roles, this distinction between genders becomes more pronounced the scarcer resources become, which for most of history wasnt very scarce (a couple million people tops on planet earth before civilization. Plenty of apples to go around me thinks). Scarce resources is a very recent development. After all, pur closest ape relatives ate bonobos, who dont have harems.

Finally, if you swear by evolutionary psychology, id like to give you this article as a caution.

http://therawness.com/limits-evo-psyc/

Sorry, this is a pet peeve of mine.