I've decided not to bother trying to attract women. What do you make of me?

[jimmy]

A few days ago I stumbled upon this site, read a bunch of articles, asked some questions here http://postmasculine.com/limitations-of-a-bootcamp, and today I realized that this site also has a forum.

Basically, I asked Manson if I should even bother trying to attract women, given that I'm 30 and live with my parents. His answer was "move out."

First of all I'd like to clarify that I don't live in my mother's basement. I rent a room and my parents are my landlords. My living with them is merely a convenience. You see, a rent around here is no less than $1000/month. But with my parents I pay less than half that amount. So financially it makes sense for me to live with my parents. That, and I also happen to enjoy their company as much as they enjoy mine.

So the part that is bothering me is that I was expecting Manson to tell me that I misunderstood the point of his article, that I took it to a logical extreme, and that not all women will automatically assume that you are a loser if you live with your parents. But Manson's argument is that if I move out I will become independent and self-sufficient, which will result in my becoming more confident, which will presumably make me more attractive to women.

I disagree. If I move out I will have so little disposable income that the only likely outcome is that I will be so miserable I will repel women a mile away. What's so attractive about a guy who spends half his monthly salary on a rent and is miserable living in some crappy apartment somewhere? Am I to believe that women are so stupid that they can be turned on with so little?

Should my goal in life be proving that I am a good provider so that one day I can have the privilege of providing for a person whose gender role prevents her from getting a job so that she can pay her own bills like everyone else? Really? That's the point of life?

There, I got it out of my chest. I guess I shouldn't even bother trying to attract women since the fact that I live with my parents (and am not ashamed of it) means that I am going to be rejected anyway.

[Mountainman]

(06-24-2012 12:26 AM)jimmy Wrote:  I disagree. If I move out I will have so little disposable income that the only likely outcome is that I will be so miserable I will repel women a mile away. What's so attractive about a guy who spends half his monthly salary on a rent and is miserable living in some crappy apartment somewhere? Am I to believe that women are so stupid that they can be turned on with so little?

Right off the get go, why assume you're going to be miserable living on your own? Your parents won't be around forever, you need to learn to support yourself. If you're going to be spending half of your income on rent, than you either need to find a cheaper place, get a roommate or go back to college and get a degree.

I'm 34 and live with my parents as well, and like you I enjoy their company and find it much cheaper to live like this. But I'm only doing it for another few months till I get my degree and get a job then I'm gone. Because no matter how well I get along with them, they are the ultimate cock block. I wouldn't even want to consider having sex while they are in the house, not because I care what they think, but just because they're in the house, it kills the mood. It would be like if they were having sex.

And also what Mark said is true. You have more confidence when you're taking care of yourself and living on your own, it's just one of those things that goes with the territory. By no means does that mean you can't get laid while you're living at home, but the logistics make it much harder.

[Trickster]

I'm not sure what you want Mark or any of us to say. Do you want us to say that living with your parents at the age of 30 isn't going to be a stigma? Because it is. I can't name a woman on this earth who'll hear that and wont look upon you negatively. That's just the way of the world.

Beyond that, I'm almost positive, though I wont speak for Mark, that what Mark was saying wasn't that "you shouldn't bother" since you live with mom. What he's probably saying is that you need to make improvements in all aspects of your life - working towards being socially and financially self-sufficient (which means moving out of the home) as well as work on improving your basic interactions with women - in order to become more attractive to women.

Beyond that...

(06-24-2012 12:26 AM)jimmy Wrote:  I disagree. If I move out I will have so little disposable income that the only likely outcome is that I will be so miserable I will repel women a mile away. What's so attractive about a guy who spends half his monthly salary on a rent and is miserable living in some crappy apartment somewhere? Am I to believe that women are so stupid that they can be turned on with so little?

Should my goal in life be proving that I am a good provider so that one day I can have the privilege of providing for a person whose gender role prevents her from getting a job so that she can pay her own bills like everyone else? Really? That's the point of life?

There, I got it out of my chest. I guess I shouldn't even bother trying to attract women since the fact that I live with my parents (and am not ashamed of it) means that I am going to be rejected anyway.

I'm going to be brutally honest here dude. You're going to have trouble attracting anybody with the attitude you've displayed. So you're right when you say it really wont matter if you move out or not. Moving out of your parents' house will be one artifact among many of you building a more attractive lifestyle for yourself rather than the cause.

[jimmy]

and what about the whole talk about low neediness and making yourself vulnerable and the "this is who I am and if you don't like it screw you" attitude that men who want to get laid supposedly should adopt. Am I not displaying that exact attitude the moment I affirm that I'd rather not get laid and forever be considered a loser than stop doing what works for me? if it weren't for the biological imperatives that I can either deny or ignore lest I choose to submit myself to them, I'd say that I'm one of the least needy people I know. But it seems that in my case I need to do the opposite of what I have so far learned and actually actively work to make myself acceptable to others.

yeah it's late and I'm probably ranting but think about what I just wrote for a moment.

[Trickster]

(06-24-2012 06:05 AM)jimmy Wrote:  and what about the whole talk about low neediness and making yourself vulnerable and the "this is who I am and if you don't like it screw you" attitude that men who want to get laid supposedly should adopt. Am I not displaying that exact attitude the moment I affirm that I'd rather not get laid and forever be considered a loser than stop doing what works for me? if it weren't for the biological imperatives that I can either deny or ignore lest I choose to submit myself to them, I'd say that I'm one of the least needy people I know. But it seems that in my case I need to do the opposite of what I have so far learned and actually actively work to make myself acceptable to others.

yeah it's late and I'm probably ranting but think about what I just wrote for a moment.

If whatever you're doing is "what works for you" then why are you on this forum and why are you asking Mark for advice?

[jimmy]

Because I am wired to want women. and frankly, I'm tired of all these movements that teach men how to become the man that women want.

If it weren't because I always run out of interest I'd start a website for men who'd rather learn to accept solitude and celibacy than move a finger to please women.

We could exchange tips on how to convince doctors to give us the medicines they give to rapists that supposedly kill sex drive, etc. For some people I think that's a much healthier alternative than learning to live a life where you are not true to yourself.

[Trickster]

(06-24-2012 02:45 PM)jimmy Wrote:  Because I am wired to want women. and frankly, I'm tired of all these movements that teach men how to become the man that women want.

Becoming a man that women want is part of becoming the man that you want to be, because, as you say, we are wired to want women. Just like how we can't expect the overweight unemployed bitchy girl to expect to land a wealthy and handsome husband, how can we expect it the other way around?

This is why there's an entire section of Models dedicated to building an awesome life outside the pursuit of women. How can you connect with the passions and desires of a woman worth connecting with when you have none of your own?

Look at the life you lead and what you're getting out of it. Are you getting what you want? Clearly, the answer is no, or else you wouldn't be posting here. If you want to start a journey towards improving yourself and creating a life that fulfills you socially, professionally, and romantically, then the people on this forum will help with whatever tips they can. But if you're here to throw a pity party about how awful it is you need to change, you're not going to get a lot of sympathy from us.

[Chaos]

First of all, you ask Mark for advice, you don't like the advice so you post in the forums to get other "advices" that match what you wanna hear... that's not asking for advice, that's asking for reaffirmation of you own beliefs.

Second you're full of resent toward women, you distill it on your comments and in addition you don't make any sense:

Quote:Because I am wired to want women. and frankly, I'm tired of all these movements that teach men how to become the man that women want.
If it weren't because I always run out of interest I'd start a website for men who'd rather learn to accept solitude and celibacy than move a finger to please women.

You know what? You should do exactly that and become celibate. You're tired of having to become the man women want? But you want this slender beautiful chick which is amazing in bed, has an amazing taste, knows how to talk and is funny, right? You just don't wanna work for it. You want it to be given to you, for free, without effort... well that's not gonna happen.

The same way you don't wanna move out of your parents, because that's the easy way. You can get a shared room with some guys for the price you're paying for your room right now. London is the most expensive place I know of in terms of rent, and still a room for rent must be 400 to 500 pound tops... but of course mommy won't be making dinner, and dad won't be there to fix things when things are going wrong... clothes won't automatically clean and iron themselves as they magically do now...

Seriously, you're 30, get out of your parent house, for your own shake. When I was 26 I moved out. I lived in a crappy studio and there was some times where I was miserably living there... but still it was MY house, whenever I had a problem I was the one who had to tackle it, I had to take care of my things, keep the place clean... and yeah, whenever I was out talking to some girls I was pretty confident I had a place, MY fucking place which I had worked for hard. It taught me to be independent and to rely on myself. And I still went visit my parents, I still had (and have) a great relationship with them... but I was an adult, I was out living MY life and handling MY things... and girls tend to notice that.

And let one thing be clear, hard as it might be to hear it. Attraction is the way it is... unbelievably women are attracted to attractive men and that does translate to having a good lifestyle, independence, charisma an a TON of other qualities. So put yourself in this position, and be honest, if you meet this unbelievably sexy girl, with this amazing sense of humor who just happens to rock your world every time she speaks, that has a dream body and a sweet voice, who is gentle on the outside but hard and capable in the inside... when you're with her ask yourself this: what do you bring to the table?

When you talk about moves and routines. That's bullshit. Mark's been telling for a long time now. The attraction span of a women starts with how you behave, but over a couple of dates quickly turns into who you are. You know why? Because most people (read: not PUA) behave the way the are. I wanna remark that to show how consistent Mark uses to be. You asked him for advice to attract more women expecting him to tell you how to behave different, instead he told you to become someone different, to change who you are, instead of just, how you act.

The difference is when you take traditional PUA advice you have a problem, you have to balance an internal fight between who you are and how you're behaving. When you take Mark's advice you forget about how you're behaving, you change who you are and let your instincts dictate how you behave... i.e. you're attractive, you behave in attractive ways... and it's that simple.

[Traindom]

(06-24-2012 02:45 PM)jimmy Wrote:  Because I am wired to want women. and frankly, I'm tired of all these movements that teach men how to become the man that women want.

If it weren't because I always run out of interest I'd start a website for men who'd rather learn to accept solitude and celibacy than move a finger to please women.

We could exchange tips on how to convince doctors to give us the medicines they give to rapists that supposedly kill sex drive, etc. For some people I think that's a much healthier alternative than learning to live a life where you are not true to yourself.

I don't have much experience with women, but I do have experience with these kinds of limiting beliefs.

Personally, I don't think you're being true to yourself by wanting to deny your desire for women. You'd all be fooling yourselves. It's like you said, we're wired.

And it's not about becoming the man women want you to be. It's about becoming the man YOU want to be. When you do it for yourself and only yourself first. Women happen to be attracted to this kind of man.

It sounds like any step outside of the comfort zone is categorized under "pleasing women." That mentality is going to kill any potential positive change you could ever have. You have to step outside of your comfort zone to change. You have fumble around until you're competent, whether it be working out, dressing, moving out, etc.

[Jack Sparrow]

One thing I appreciate about Mark's posts is that he try to state the rules rather than the exceptions.

Of course you can laid living with your parents. But that's the exception rather than the rule. Other websites, pick-up company like to taut the exceptions - "Yea, our instructor Johnny is 500 lbs, live in his mom's basement, and wears the same walmart underwear everyday, but he bangs 20 different girls a week." It maybe true, but most guys do better being in shape, living on his won, and dress well.

It'll just help you a lot to "plan" to move out. Since you are saving a lot of money by living with your parents, why not consciously budget some of that money for you future rental expense.

You probably read the 20:80 article. You want make the changes the gives you the most bang (pun intended) for the buck.

[Zac]

I don't think it's a gender roll thing as much as it's a "You can't really be that sure of yourself as a 30+ year old man that has to live with his parents because he can't afford to do anything else" thing.

Like trickster said, if you were sure of yourself and your results you wouldn't have these questions.

[Tim]

1. As you noted, you're biologically wired as a man to want to attract women and sleep with them. Whether that's as a one night stand or in some form of a relationship will vary from man to man, but it's true of every single man on this forum. The only reason this wouldn't be true for you is if you were a) homosexual or b) A-sexual, but neither of those appear to be the case here, so let's discard that.

2. If 1. applies, then I don't believe you when you say "I'd rather not get laid and be considered a loser forever". Men have fought wars, built wonders of the world, and created empires to prove themselves to women. Men will go to ridiculous lengths to do so. So when a man says "nope I don't care, I give up" I don't believe it. Especially when you say it on a men's website.

3. If 2. applies, then the reason you wrote this post in the first place was because right now you're in a tough place logically. You've read enough of this site to realize that maybe you can be successful with women. And that gives you hope. But you're also scared shitless because you know that success requires hard work, and deep change. And you're worried that if you fail to achieve that it will mean all sorts of negative things about you and your masculinity. So you wrote this post up, hoping that guys will challenge you, but also hoping that you arguing back against them will make you feel more validated about your decision.

4. If 3. applies, then arguing back and forth with you is unlikely to get anywhere. You're too attached to your beliefs, and understandably enough. You didn't stay at home with your parents until your 30s for no good reason. Clearly the idea of being independent and a bachelor terrifies you. Why that is, you need to find out if you want to overcome it. Trying to explain to you that all of your justifications and explanations are just BS excuses to validate your current position isn't going to go far. You need to want to do that yourself.

5. if 4. applies, then I realize how tough the journey forward from here might be for you. And I respect that, as will every other guy on the forum if you continue to take action regardless of that difficulty. And if you request for help on here, you'll get it, whether it's figuring out how to see a therapist who you can overcome some of your fears of independence with, or talking through some of the limiting beliefs you have about money [Fact: The poorest I've been in my life was when I was a college student and I got laid in that time. Second Fact: Mark was even more broke than that, and got laid more. See: http://postmasculine.com/the-broke-mans-guide-to-women]

Best of luck.

[Mark]

If you moved out of your parents' place and became fully independent and were 100% responsible for yourself, then you probably wouldn't be here complaining about your situation and instead you'd be out living your life, struggling and making something of yourself.

You would have less money. But you would become independent and self-sufficient. You'd build confidence in yourself. You'd feel better about yourself. You'd struggle, but you'd be happier about struggling.

You should do these things for yourself. Not for women. If you care about yourself, you should care about becoming an independent and confident person.

As long as you're living with your parents and dependent on them, you will never develop the psychological traits needed to become a strong and independent man. Fact. What you're doing on this thread is whining. You know who else whines? Children. You know what children do? Live with their parents.

Move out. Struggle. It'll be the best thing you ever did. And do it for you. Not for women, but for you.