How to Stop Flaking - My Method (Input Appreciated)

[Mace]

Mark, appreciate the detailed response. You raise some great points.

IMO this debate goes back to the classic PUA value vs. tactics dichotomy.

Your response seems to suggest that I resort to tactics because I lack value. This isn’t true. I have a degree in a demanding field. I have a high-paying professional career. I have my own place. I have a car. I have a lean, muscular build. I’m literate. I’m well-travelled. I’m knowledgeable about a wide array of subjects.

But how much of this can you convey, honestly, in a 10 to 15 minute interaction? This is why I use tactics to yield more bangs per approach.

IMO tactics are extremely important in the context of a day game cold approach, where there is very little margin for error. Since she still regards you as a stranger who hasn’t been vetted/pre-screened/pre-approved (via social circle), the slightest hint of awkwardness and neediness will send the girl running.

I have seen a lot of guys fail to capitalize on a great initial interaction through awkward/needy texts and not building rapport through the phone, and then wonder why girls flake.

Even if your initial interaction is great (and I question how efficiently you can convey your high-value awesomeness in 10 minutes), girls will still flake out due to a lack of comfort. This is all the more so true of younger girls who are more cliquey/social-circle oriented and insecure.

You emphasize that the key is the initial interaction. I’m still curious as to what you do in your 10-15 minute day game cold approaches to get girls so enthralled by you that they rarely flake. You’ve been fairly evasive about this, so if you can elaborate on what you exactly say and do to get such a low flake ratio it’d be great. You’d be helping out a lot of guys here who are struggling to contend with flakes.

Thanks again Mark.

[baller08]

I think this may be one of the most important discussions a forum like this can have. Essentially what you see here are two men who are in different phases of this process. Mace is in the beginning of the process and Mark is near the end of the process. For you guys who have a hard time getting a phone number, a date, or a woman into bed consistently....pay very close attention to this discussion.

What Mace is doing isn't wrong. It's effective, it yields results and I think many men would give their left arm to be in his position. He has options and he's not hung up on any one girl. He's having a great time. He has also worked on other areas of his life; financial and physical.

However, if you read what Mark wrote, that is a man who is coming from a place of maturity and experience. It was excellent. He's been where Mace is at right now. Mace doesn't know it yet, but if he STAYS on the path he is on, there will come a day when he needs something more fulfilling. Mace, hopefully, will slowly move towards where Mark is at.

Quote:Your response seems to suggest that I resort to tactics because I lack value. This isn’t true. I have a degree in a demanding field. I have a high-paying professional career. I have my own place. I have a car. I have a lean, muscular build. I’m literate. I’m well-travelled. I’m knowledgeable about a wide array of subjects.

That is not the value Mark is talking about. You're not going to understand what he is saying yet and that's absolutely ok. Mark didn't either when he was where you were at during the process. I didn't either. I used to think that was all "high value" meant too.

To be clear, those are HUGELY important things, so don't take this the wrong way. But the value that Mark is talking about he can't really explain on paper. The value that Mark is talking about women can sense it, feel it, and know it within 5 minutes. It's a way of being. But you'll get there, Mace....just keep doing what you're doing but also don't EVER stop learning and opening your eyes to new possibilities.

[Mace]

Point taken. It may very well be that I'm at Point B whereas Mark is at Point C.

But most guys here are still at Point A (can't get a number, can't get a date, can't get laid).

Mark seems to be advising Point A guys to get to Point C without passing through Point B first. I'm questioning how advisable that is.

Even Mark has conceded that he was hopeless at one point, and there was a period when he relied on tactics, routines, and psychological ploys to get what he wanted. He's only here where is now because he went through that phase. He's probably doing a lot of things subconsciously (tactics) that a clueless newb would be oblivious to.

[Halo Effect]

I do not believe that you need to go through a phase of PUA tactics and routines to get to where Mark is now.

I am not as good with women as Mark is, but I am dating multiple girls and I don't use any tactics or routines or techniques.

One thing that stares me in the face when I read your posts, Mace, is that you believe that this is a game. That meeting women is a game to be won. A lock to be picked. A puzzle to be solved.

This sounds very odd to me. Why? Because women are people. You are a person. A woman is a person. Just like you! She has thoughts and feelings and beliefs and she experiences this world just like you.

To get this point, think about meeting and interacting with a guy you just met. Or think about interacting with a family member or close friend.

Are your interactions with other men and family members based on winning them over with tactics? Is that how you get to know and like new men that you meet, by them properly deploying tactics on you? When you greatly value a friend or family member, is that because they subtly shared how big their salary is and what car they drive and whether they have a six pack? Are your relationships with friends and family games?

Hopefully those questions sound odd to you. Because your interactions with people close to you are not based on tactics or games or techniques.

Well, guess what. A woman is a person, too. She is just like you, except she has a pussy where you have a dick, and she is sexually attracted to men and you to women. But other than that, she operates almost exactly like you do on the inside.

If that is how you treat women, as human beings that you can relate to, who can be very interesting and who you can share yourself with and build a valuable relationship with... then this thing becomes a whole lot easier.

[Mark]

Mace and Baller: you're looking at this on a continuum of results. I'm looking at it on a continuum of mindsets.

I've always said, in fact, the foundation of everything I teach is that if you handle your mindsets and beliefs, then the results will naturally happen as a side effect and in a much more pleasant and fulfilling way as well. If you solely focus on achieving results, then you'll put in a lot more effort and in the end, won't be much happier for it. Instead of being an under-sexed, lonely man, you'll be an over-sexed, lonely man.

The problem here is not that my results or more consistent, or that it takes less effort for me... Mace will get there eventually no matter how he chooses to go about it. The issue I'm taking with him is the mindset in which he's chosen to attack the problem: that of that women are some unknown other and that we must devise games and tactics to "win" them over. It's just a shitty place to develop from. And as Halo said, anyone can step out of that paradigm any time they choose.

I have had many, many, MANY students who pursued the pick up tactic line of development and got no where. They then came to me, let go of a lot of their previous conceptions of what "being good with women" was, and soon started getting results with women they liked. In short, they went from A to C without going through B. But in this case, A, B, and C are not level of results, but how happy they were with their dating lives. Ultimately, that's what matters.

I mean, would you rather bang 50 women and be unhappy, or bang 5 and be happy? Not that those are the only two alternatives. I just mean, happiness and enjoyment of your interactions with women should be the metric of progress, not numbers, lays, conversion ratios or whatever.

[Matt II]

I don´t use tactics or anything when hitting on women. I am just me, honest and to the point. I can go up to women in daytime and tell them they are cute or hot whilste smiling and being totally confident. I don´t say things to get women attracted to me, I just say things to express myself and to screen the girl. I still get a lot of flakes. Like many. What am I supposed to do? (Serious question)

[Mace]

(04-13-2012 06:24 PM)Matt II Wrote:  I don´t use tactics or anything when hitting on women. I am just me, honest and to the point. I can go up to women in daytime and tell them they are cute or hot whilste smiling and being totally confident. I don´t say things to get women attracted to me, I just say things to express myself and to screen the girl. I still get a lot of flakes. Like many. What am I supposed to do? (Serious question)

And this is the million dollar question. A man can be totally confident, have a great outlook, mindset, character, be totally at peace with himself... and still never get girls. And that's what all of us on this forum are here for.

Mark, as I asked earlier, what exactly do you say and in your 10-15 minute day game cold approaches to get girls so enthralled by you that they rarely flake. You’ve been fairly evasive about this. If you can elaborate on what you exactly say and do to get such a low flake ratio it’d be great. You’d be helping out a lot of guys here who are struggling to contend with flakes.

[Chaos]

I think this might be One of this situations where you auto fulfill your prophecy.

Mark have the mindset that pickiing up girls (day or night) is "easy" and that the girl will completely fancy him after those 10 minutes of interaction. As a result, a lot of times she does.

You have the mindset that the girl is predisposed to not like you, that any little mistake you do will break the deal and, as a result, that's exactly what happens.

It's interesting to note that two person can have exactly the same results (the same number of dates and lays) but having two different mindsets can make them perceive those results as completely different.

I loved this article and I think it summarizes what mark is trying to say.

http://postmasculine.com/you-are-your-own-worst-enemy

[Mark]

What I say depends on the girl... I connect with them. I find out about their lives. I don't just say "where are you from? where do you go to school? Oh that's cool, I went to school in Boston but I prefer new York. Hey, can you cook?" By itself, that shit is meaningless... you might as well walk up to her and say, "Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah..."

I tell them stories about my brother, my cat, how I was scared of lightning when I was a kid, the time I got sick in India. I hear stories about their mother, their family vacation when they were a kid, the annoying things their roommates say. It changes every time because SHE changes every time. I could have one approach where we talk about nothing but American literature for 20 minutes. And then the very next one I could be making sarcastic jokes about her grandmother's pet cactus. It changes because the girl changes.

They're fucking people man. It's not a riddle or a algebra problem to be solved. They're people. Relate to them. Care about them. Play with them. You guys are so caught up on the right words, on figuring out some key or some equation, you're forgetting there's a fucking PERSON standing right in front of you the entire time. You are so disconnected from your emotions, if you would just listen to them, they would tell you everything you need to say or do. And no, not to get laid every time, but how to enjoy yourself and your interactions and connect with an amazing woman.

Not every girl I talk to is interested in me. If a girl shows little interest in talking to me, I eject very quickly. Sometimes girls don't want to have a personal conversation. That's fine, usually I eject and move on with my life. Sometimes girls just like talking to me, and aren't interested in dating me. That's fine too. I've made some great friends that way. Sometimes girls flake on me. Oh well... shit happens. But I don't measure or worry about crap like that. I worry about meeting and getting to know people who I find interesting and attractive. That's all I worry about. Because that's all I can control. I can't control what she thinks or how she feels or what she's going to do the next day when I call her. All I can control is my interest and my enjoyment and my intimacy, and so that's what I do. And it works. A lot. Dude, my texts are so fucking "bad" from a game perspective. But I don't care. It works. I'm happy.

[SeXyBaCk]

Difference in interest/goals here Mace... your goal is to get as much pussy as possible (pardon my french). Some of us have gotten that out of our system and have moved on to seek something else... and others aren't even in for that in first place and just want to grow as a person. So really... asking and discussing pick up tactics here... you're asking the wrong audience.

Frankly, I think you've misunderstood what most of us are here for.

I can only speak for myself, but I have never had a problem getting with women. I acted like a kid in a sweetshop though and was a major dick to a significant amount of women in my life. I didn't do PUA, a year or two ago my brother gave me "the game" as a gift as a joke and that was the first time I came across PUA. However, I did recognise a lot of my old behaviours of being a manwhore in the scene, and the subconscious constant search for validation from females. I'm here for ideas and exchange of views and discovering what it is I might want in life.

I can't help but think the whole PUA movement has evolved from the video game generation. You're convinced if you press all the right buttons the woman will come home with you. This is not how human relationships work. There's just such a huge gap there in...outlook, mentality and expectations...I really think you're in the wrong place here if you want advice on pickup tactics and flake-countering.

[Mace]

(04-13-2012 06:42 PM)Mark Wrote:  What I say depends on the girl... I connect with them. I find out about their lives. I don't just say "where are you from? where do you go to school? Oh that's cool, I went to school in Boston but I prefer new York." I tell them stories about my brother, my cat, the time I got sick in India. I hear stories about their mother, their family vacation when they were a kid, the annoying things their roommates say. It changes every time because SHE changes every time.

All this in 10 minutes of conversation with a random stranger?

This is what I'm seeing on this forum:

Forum member: "I got her number but she flaked on me."
Mark: "Oh well, just be confident and focus on making a better first impression next time. Girls will flake. Find another oen."

Your advice doesn't seem to extend much beyond be yourself and if she flakes just let it go and find another one. It's not very practical.

Why don't we hear more success stories from guys who've put your advice to practice? Once guys start having success, they'll build confidence and strong "inner game". But they need success first, because confidence comes from success.

I think you're putting the cart before the horse. It’s like handing a white belt beginner his black belt after a month of training and expecting him to kick a true black belt’s ass in his first sparring match. Natural Game is the end-game. It’s the last phase of learning the PUA tools and the reasons behind why they work.

What you're preaching IMO is inevitable once one masters the fundamentals of game. That is, push/pull, qualifying, etc. This all becomes “natural” once you start getting good. Bringing sexual energy, enthusiasm, controlling the frame, etc is all part of being a “natural”. I think the mastery of structured game is important. However, once that is achieved, "natural/inner game" takes over.

But first you gotta show us how to get there!

[Halo Effect]

(04-13-2012 06:24 PM)Matt II Wrote:  I don´t use tactics or anything when hitting on women. I am just me, honest and to the point. I can go up to women in daytime and tell them they are cute or hot whilste smiling and being totally confident. I don´t say things to get women attracted to me, I just say things to express myself and to screen the girl. I still get a lot of flakes. Like many. What am I supposed to do? (Serious question)

I feel like it's about empathy. And connection. When I'm talking with a girl and she's not into me, I feel it. When I do make a connection with a girl, I feel that, too. Then it's like we're on the same team. There's no question of flaking. In stead, there's an understanding between us. We know we want to see each other, and so we will, and we will both put in effort to make that happen. (Or that's just my belief system and it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. But this is how I perceive it once I've clicked with a girl.)

I really think it's about empathizing and connecting. Feeling what she feels. Knowing what's happening in the interaction.

If I'd have to take a guess, I'd say the best way to "learn" this is by getting in touch with your own emotions. Empathy is basically knowing "if I were in his/her shoes, what would I feel?". That is impossible to know without knowing how you feel.

[Matt II]

(04-13-2012 06:42 PM)Mark Wrote:  What I say depends on the girl... I connect with them. I find out about their lives. I don't just say "where are you from? where do you go to school? Oh that's cool, I went to school in Boston but I prefer new York. Hey, can you cook?" By itself, that shit is meaningless... you might as well walk up to her and say, "Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah..."

I tell them stories about my brother, my cat, how I was scared of lightning when I was a kid, the time I got sick in India. I hear stories about their mother, their family vacation when they were a kid, the annoying things their roommates say. It changes every time because SHE changes every time. I could have one approach where we talk about nothing but American literature for 20 minutes. And then the very next one I could be making sarcastic jokes about her grandmother's pet cactus. It changes because the girl changes.

They're fucking people man. It's not a riddle or a algebra problem to be solved. They're people. Relate to them. Care about them. Play with them. You guys are so caught up on the right words, on figuring out some key or some equation, you're forgetting there's a fucking PERSON standing right in front of you the entire time. You are so disconnected from your emotions, if you would just listen to them, they would tell you everything you need to say or do. And no, not to get laid every time, but how to enjoy yourself and your interactions and connect with an amazing woman.

Not every girl I talk to is interested in me. If a girl shows little interest in talking to me, I eject very quickly. Sometimes girls don't want to have a personal conversation. That's fine, usually I eject and move on with my life. Sometimes girls just like talking to me, and aren't interested in dating me. That's fine too. I've made some great friends that way. Sometimes girls flake on me. Oh well... shit happens. But I don't measure or worry about crap like that. I worry about meeting and getting to know people who I find interesting and attractive. That's all I worry about. Because that's all I can control. I can't control what she thinks or how she feels or what she's going to do the next day when I call her. All I can control is my interest and my enjoyment and my intimacy, and so that's what I do. And it works. A lot. Dude, my texts are so fucking "bad" from a game perspective. But I don't care. It works. I'm happy.

Well to be honest I have done this too. I have had Insta Dates with girls where we talked about her family, upbrining, passions, interest, favourite sock colour (joking ) etc., some even say that they never told a stranger these things before (happens rarely though) and some of these girls still flake. On the other hand I had interaction that literally took 30sec, I basically complimented her, grabbed her number and I went on a Date a few days later. My point is really, that it is super random what works in my opinioin. No doubt cold approaching works, but to be consistently getting girls with this you have to put in a lot work (meaning approaching), because this "chemistry", this sexual spark we are talking about is very random to create, because of million factors that are not in you´re control.

[Mark]

I think you're mislabeling what I'm talking about as "inner game" or even "natural game." It's not a fucking game!

Dude, girls flake. They flake on me. They flake on everyone. There is not a guy on this planet that girls don't flake on. Let. It. Go. Find another one. Make the next interaction better. Take fewer numbers. I don't understand what's so unattainable about that advice.

I've said multiple times in this thread, that if this works for you, if this is what helps you get results right now, that's cool, keep doing it. But at some point, you'll want to get to the root issue: the quality if your initial interactions. And I'm also trying to tell you that the core problem of that root issue is that you still see this as some game that you have to memorize and win. That's all. This is not some game and I am not better than you at it. This is called life, and you are emotionally disconnected from the people you meet, and I am not. That's all. I don't expect you to understand this or figure it out overnight, but I'm telling you: THAT is the end point. Not approach-date ratios. Not approach-lay ratios. Not lays per month or per year. Being emotionally connected with the world around you is the end point. That's when the results start happening you it feels effortless to you.

You keep saying, "Well, I have to go through this and do it this way before I get to where you are." Yes! You are going through it. You're getting dates and getting laid. That's great. Now you have no more excuses! It's time to make the next jump. And now I'm telling you how to get to where I am. So stop throwing a fit, put on your big boy pants, and challenge yourself to do something new or different.

[Mark]

Matt II Wrote:Well to be honest I have done this too. I have had Insta Dates with girls where we talked about her family, upbrining, passions, interest, favourite sock colour (joking Wink ) etc., some even say that they never told a stranger these things before (happens rarely though) and some of these girls still flake. On the other hand I had interaction that literally took 30sec, I basically complimented her, grabbed her number and I went on a Date a few days later. My point is really, that it is super random what works in my opinioin. No doubt cold approaching works, but to be consistently getting girls with this you have to put in a lot work (meaning approaching), because this "chemistry", this sexual spark we are talking about is very random to create, because of million factors that are not in you´re control.

I agree 100%. It is totally random. And you can't create that spark out of nothing. I think where a lot of my perceived "results" may be where Mace's or yours are not, is that if a girl doesn't seem to be into me after 5-10 seconds, I eject. If I talk to her for 10 minutes and am not excited about her, I don't take her number. I screen ruthlessly. If things aren't going to go anywhere, then I'd rather get it out of the way earlier than later.

[Mark]

Halo and Sexyback get it. Listen to them.

[Matt II]

(04-13-2012 07:27 PM)Mark Wrote:  

Matt II Wrote:Well to be honest I have done this too. I have had Insta Dates with girls where we talked about her family, upbrining, passions, interest, favourite sock colour (joking Wink ) etc., some even say that they never told a stranger these things before (happens rarely though) and some of these girls still flake. On the other hand I had interaction that literally took 30sec, I basically complimented her, grabbed her number and I went on a Date a few days later. My point is really, that it is super random what works in my opinioin. No doubt cold approaching works, but to be consistently getting girls with this you have to put in a lot work (meaning approaching), because this "chemistry", this sexual spark we are talking about is very random to create, because of million factors that are not in you´re control.

I agree 100%. It is totally random. And you can't create that spark out of nothing. I think where a lot of my perceived "results" may be where Mace's or yours are not, is that if a girl doesn't seem to be into me after 5-10 seconds, I eject. If I talk to her for 10 minutes and am not excited about her, I don't take her number. I screen ruthlessly. If things aren't going to go anywhere, then I'd rather get it out of the way earlier than later.

I also think it is good to screen through women. Afterall good game means you will get rejected because girls that a non-sexual, boring etc., will get "filtered" (yes I know stupid term, dehumanizes the women a bit) out.
Like you wrote in you´re book: Get to the truth. That alone means success.

[baller08]

For once in a forum, everyone is correct.

Mace - I have a couple of questions for you:

1) How many steps did you take today from your house to your car?

2) How many were long strides vs. short strides?

Obviously you don't know. Why? Because your walking is already in the unconscious competence stage. That is what Mark is talking about...getting to the point where you don't think about it.

It's not so much that Mark is trying to get the guys to skip steps, it's that he has seen a lot of guys get stuck in Point B and take such an ugly turn that they have a horrible time trying to get back on path to Point C. He is trying to find a better way without having to waste a lot of time in Point B.

He's making sure they keep their eyes on the bigger, healthier picture and not get sucked into game playing details that they lose the entire reason for getting women in the first place - to have deep emotional connections and thereby truly enriching their lives. He is also setting a high bar for them so they don't get stuck in PUA-type purgatory.

---

Mark - To Mace's point though, he is saying that a lot of these guys that come onto this forum figuratively cannot walk from their house to their car. They're like someone who suffered a terrible car accident. You can't tell that person, "Just walk from your house to your car, you're thinking too much, don't make a big deal out of it!"

That disabled person is going to have to put all his thoughts and energy into putting one foot at a time on his bedroom floor, then forcing himself to move down the hallway, hold himself up while he gets his keys, try to open the garage door while trying to not lose balance, etc. Everything this person does has to be planned out at first till he goes through enough physical therapy where his muscles have memory and knows what to do without thinking about every muscle fiber twitch.

It also depends on the guy. It's easy for Sexyback to get what you're saying but look at his background:

Quote:I can only speak for myself, but I have never had a problem getting with women. I acted like a kid in a sweetshop though and was a major dick to a significant amount of women in my life. I didn't do PUA, a year or two ago my brother gave me "the game" as a gift as a joke and that was the first time I came across PUA. However, I did recognise a lot of my old behaviours of being a manwhore in the scene, and the subconscious constant search for validation from females. I'm here for ideas and exchange of views and discovering what it is I might want in life.

That is a WHOLE lot different than guys like Creatine Dreams, Oldguy, Schmechti, Westgame and others. To them that's like a rich person telling a dirt poor person, "God I have SO MUCH MONEY, but shit it didn't make me happy till I found better ways to use my money other than exotic vacations and gourmet meals".

If you're starting from where Sexyback is, then yes, absolutely he can start to try to understand where you are coming from.

It's like Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hi...of_needs): You can't talk to a man about Self-Actualization when that man is starving and cold. All he wants is some food and shelter first.

It's the same with the guys who come on here, the ones in the lowest level in the picture below...it's REALLY hard for them to understand or care about what you're talking about till they "get some food and shelter". For the guys in the 2nd and 3rd tier, those are the guys that need to strive for more. (CoughMacecough...)



When you talk to a woman, Mark, you no longer need tactics because you've absorbed them. The irony is in understanding them you no longer need them....but you still needed to have understood them first. Look at the amount of books you've read. If it's truly random and there is no puzzle, none of us would read the books we do and study what we study.

Just my very long two cents. But carry on.

[Halo Effect]

Here's one way to illustrate the difference between focusing on connection and focusing on "game":

Let's say you're talking to a girl. You're talking about interests and passions. Let's also say that you have travelled a bit.

Game approach: You mention travelling (or a story about travelling where you indirectly boast about your travelling), because that shows her that you are travelled, experienced; things of value. If you demonstrate your value correctly, then she will perceive you to have value and she will thus increase her attraction for you. Do enough of these things without showing negative traits and she will be into you. (Or that's how it should happen according to this approach.)

Connecting: You mention traveling, because that truly is a passion of yours. One of two things will usually happen. (This is an oversimplification of reality obviously.)
1) She has no interest in travelling. In that case, your passion, your stories, they will not impress her whatsoever. She will not be interested. Her not being interested at all in this passion of yours will probably also decrease your interest in her. The subject will quickly be changed.
2) She will be passionate about travelling as well. Now you immediately have a click: a shared passion. This in itself feels good, and creates a connection between you. Now, you are interested in each other and ask each other about the places that you've visited, the experiences you've had, opinions about countries, and so on. A fun conversation is bound to happen.

So in that latter approach, it's not about a game where you convey qualities that impress her so your value becomes higher than hers which causes her to be attracted to you.
In stead, you convey interests, passions, traits, and so on, that allow you both to connect with each other if she shares them. She's not this alien being that is unknown and needs to be conquered. She's on your team, and you're looking for a connection.

The game proponents seem to view the female brain as a black box, and they try to manipulate the INPUT into the black box and then hope that the OUTPUT is attraction.

The connection proponents empathize with the woman, they are aware of what she feels, they share emotions, and if they connect with each other, they share desires, moving towards a shared goal.

---

Quote:Mark - To Mace's point though, he is saying that a lot of these guys that come onto this forum figuratively cannot walk from their house to their car. They're like someone who suffered a terrible car accident. You can't tell that person, "Just walk from your house to your car, you're thinking too much, don't make a big deal out of it!"

The way I see it now, staying with the analogy.

Mark says: It's going to be fucking hard, you're going to have to learn a lot and go through periods of pain, but YOU HAVE TO WALK.

PUA says: You gotta walk on your hands, bro.

Maybe that's easy to say now that I believe what I believe. Because I was impressed by Mystery at one point as well, although I never got deeply involved in PUA myself. But now I believe PUA is not a step between being bad with women and effortlessly connecting with women. PUA is the anti-connecting with women. (PUA meaning techniques, routines, strategies, lines, etc.)

[baller08]

HaloEffect - I don't disagree with the second way of having a conversation. But come on...lots of guy can have shared interest, passions, traits and so forth with girls and get no sexual interest from the girl...it's called The Friend Zone.

Unless you're a total recluse you're going to have things in common with women but a lot of guys end up in The Friend Zone because they don't know how to do all the other things. Those are the situations where the guy comes on here and says, "Man we had good conversation, she seemed really interested....but then when I asked her out she flaked/said she had a boyfriend/disappeared. This happens to me all the time!".

Look at this post from FirstAidKit: http://postmasculine.com/forum/Thread-Co...85#pid7185

See how she can have the kind of conversation you just suggested but felt no attraction for the guy? Because it's much more than what you are suggesting and if you're doing well with women, you yourself are sub-communicating all the things that you are saying is not necessary...that whole unconscious competence thing I talked about above.

[Mace]

(04-13-2012 09:03 PM)baller08 Wrote:  When you talk to a woman, Mark, you no longer need tactics because you've absorbed them. The irony is in understanding them you no longer need it....but you still need to understand it. Look at the amount of books you've read. If it's truly random and there is no puzzle, none of us would read the books we do and study what we study.

This is the key point. Mark has already absorbed the tactics (how to approach, what to say, what not to say, how to show value, how to qualify, how to get her to invest, how to sexualize etc.) to the point where he's internalized it all to and reached a level of "unconscious competence".

You also have guys here who are 25 yr old virgins. You need to lay the foundation for these guys and build them up to a point where they achieve a degree of success - and confidence will build as a result. This will (hopefully) lead to self-actualization.

Even Mark had to start somewhere. I am surprised by how dogmatic he is about turning against the very tactics that brought him from a sexless kid to where he is today.

[Mark]

The game is a team sport. You're trying to find a teammate, not an opponent.

[Halo Effect]

(04-13-2012 09:23 PM)baller08 Wrote:  HaloEffect - I don't disagree with the second way of having a conversation. But come on...lots of guy can have shared interest, passions, traits and so forth with girls and get no sexual interest from the girl...it's called The Friend Zone.

Unless you're a total recluse you're going to have things in common with women but a lot of guys end up in The Friend Zone because they don't know how to do all the other things. Those are the situations where the guy comes on here and says, "Man we had good conversation, she seemed really interested....but then when I asked her out she flaked/said she had a boyfriend/disappeared".

Look at this post from FirstAidKit: http://postmasculine.com/forum/Thread-Co...85#pid7185

See how she can have the kind of conversation you just suggested but felt no attraction for the guy? Because it's much more than what you are suggesting and if you're doing well with women, you yourself are sub-communicating all the things that you are saying is not necessary...that whole unconscious competance thing I talked about above.

That sort of conversation is not all that is necessary. Definitely not. I do not believe that we are all already very attractive to women.

If a guy ends up in the friend zone, then he's not sexually attractive to women yet. This is usually because he is not assertive, afraid to be "vulnerable", unwilling to show his sexual attraction. I would say: overcome shame, accept your sexuality, gather the courage to show your sexual desire to women, risk rejection. Eventually, become more comfortable with sexuality and expressing that sexuality.

There is still no need for techniques, routines, and so on.

I absolutely believe that we have to work on ourselves. I do not believe that any man will automatically convey all the right things. But I'm saying that the PUA approach is not the way to our destination.

Edited to add: I wrote that post with the two approaches to show how different the mindsets are. The two approaches are fundamentally different. If you can connect with women, you are not automatically a mega-player, but if you use the PUA mindset, then rich, deep, fulfiling connections are hard to come by, because the assumptions/beliefs on which that mindset is built do not consider that sort of connection realistic or even possible.

[Mace]

Mark, what is your view of this approach. Just curious.

http://tindeck.com/listen/vwsr

(Day game cold approach on campus, college girl)

[baller08]

Take PUA references out of it, Halo. Everytime someone injects that term we lose perspective and the point. I never once mentioned PUA anything because learning some skills and understand women isn't a PUA thing...it's an un-brain washing of men thing. Again, what you're saying is true, but guys need food and shelter first before they care about or can even begin to have the luxury of understanding things like morality and respect for others (Using the Maslow example).

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(04-13-2012 09:42 PM)Mace Wrote:  Mark, what is your view of this approach. Just curious.

http://tindeck.com/listen/vwsr

(Day game cold approach on campus, college girl)

This really has nothing to do with the topic at hand and I don't want to derail it....but....can I just say that this whole filming and recording interactions with women is just plain wrong and creepy?

It's stupid and I'm certain borderline illegal somewhere.

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(04-13-2012 09:08 PM)Halo Effect Wrote:  The way I see it now, staying with the analogy.

Mark says: It's going to be fucking hard, you're going to have to learn a lot and go through periods of pain, but YOU HAVE TO WALK.

PUA says: You gotta walk on your hands, bro.

No one is having a PUA debate except you. So this example is irrelevent.

What I'm saying is guys who don't have your background or Sexyback's background have a lot more things to UNLEARN. And what you're talking about "overcoming shame", "express your sexuality", "be vulnerable".....that's like me telling you, "Hey just JUMP higher". You can't unless you work on the steps to train your muscles to allow you to jump higher!

With anything, be it sports, playing an instrument...you have to start with techniques and steps. When you play the guitar, you start off by looking at your fingers because you don't know what you're doing. As a magician when I first learned how to do certain sleight of hand, I looked at my hands...it's a bad habit that every magician does because we're unsure and we haven't developed the muscle memory yet.

Then with practice we start to be able to look natural and look at our audience while doing the sleights perfectly.

No one's talking about PUA stuff here. What I'm talking about is common sense and the way any person will learn something new.