How to Stop Flaking - My Method (Input Appreciated)

[baller08]

Geezus Leo...it's not hard, it's just conversation. What's hard is opening 500 times and getting 5 dates without learning about why the other 450 times didn't go well. You guys want to talk about "efficiency" then learn from every interaction and think about what you could do a little different instead of throwing your hands up and say, "Oh well, maybe she got lost in the Burmuda Triangle! Next!".

Quote:I don't see banter on text as convincing a girl, I just see it as an extension of the initial conversation. Eventually, if a guy gets enough women, he'll learn how to make the initial interaction better and subsequent secondary communication becomes less necessary other than logistics for the 1st date.

Does that sound obsessive to you? Did I say, "keep texting the girl?" Did I say, "maybe she just got busy so try again next week?" Don't make up stuff.

Jon - good analogy and I've never disagreed with your style of conversation and approach. Obviously the goal is to develop the pro style offense and not get stuck in college game. I've never said this was THE goal or THE method. I just recognize it's part of the learning process. When guys like you and Mark have absorbed thousands of dates, sex, and interaction you get to a point where you "get it". Personally I don't need to spend much time in secondary communications but it doesn't mean I don't see the value in it for a lot of guys, especially when they're learning or for women who are comfortable with texting as their primary form of communication.

This is a really great forum with a good diverse set of individuals. But the one negative I see is that the heavy hitters here push the end goal so hard that they tend to forget that a lot of the fearful, nice guys can't understand what you're saying.

You have to guide these guys to do some "high effort" activities so they can get some results before they understand what true efficiency is. Otherwise you just make them feel even worse because they can't possibly execute in Month 1 what you guys who are in Year 7 are talking about.

[SeXyBaCk]

Seems like everyone's pretty much making a few valid points describing certain scenarios. What's the disagreement here? The question is rather where am I in life, what's my style of dating and talking to women and how much effort am I prepared to exert in getting a date eg. how much energy am I willing to put into chasing a first date?

I'm sure PUA message boards have loads of flake prevention strategy threads that are going strong. So Mace if you want feedback or ideas for techniques...maybe check somewhere else? I've flaked far more than I've been flaked, which I'm not proud of. It's not pleasant. Makes me feel like an ass, like I've raised expectations and not delivered. And I curse my own weakness for giving away my contact info to someone I wasn't really into. My guess is women feel the same when it happens. They just weren't feeling it. What I do know is if she's smoking hot and we kicked it off, I'm more than willing to chase, whatever it takes right to tap dat dere ass.

From what I gathered though the whole "making women like me" thing is not what Mark is trying to promote or advocate. Hmm. It's no the healthiest of mindsets in my view. The recurring question I feel on this forum is lately, is it a necessary mindset to have at some point if you have very little experience with women. Probably opening a can of worms with this, I sense conflicting opinions on this point.

[Leo]

(04-27-2012 05:27 PM)baller08 Wrote:  Geezus Leo...it's not hard, it's just conversation. What's hard is opening 500 times and getting 5 dates without learning about why the other 450 times didn't go well. You guys want to talk about "efficiency" then learn from every interaction and think about what you could do a little different instead of throwing your hands up and say, "Oh well, maybe she got lost in the Burmuda Triangle! Next!".

Well Baller it's hard if it is cold approach, if you can't get the girl out on a date after 2 weeks why bother? Why keep trying? That's my point, she's gonna forget about you and you should forget about her and move on.
And sometimes there's nothing YOU can do, how about if the girl has trust issues and need a TON of assurance to go out on a date with you? Are you willing to do something like that with a woman that you barely know? I've met a lot of crazy girls to know that everybody (girls and guys) have their own issues, it's not always the guy's fault if she doesn't go out with you, no necessarily you DID something wrong, she needs to collaborate in the interaction as well. Why that tendency to blame guys if the girl doesn't go out with you? We are gonna reach a point where we are gonna evaluate her too: well, this is not working FOR ME, next!

[baller08]

Quote:I've flaked far more than I've been flaked, which I'm not proud of.

Sexyback...I've said this to you before, your background is VASTLY different than those like Creatine, Old Guy, Reesays, Juggarnaut, CHB2, and guys like them. You keep losing sight of that. You've overcomed struggles, but your mentality is completely different than theirs. If you and I were sitting at a pub and talked about the best way to approach a group of girls, we would probably agree 99%. In fact, we'd just go up and do it and I'll bet we do it very similarly given what I've read about your approach and Zen-like attitude. But on here these guys don't understand most of what you're talking about.

Quote:Well Baller it's hard if it is cold approach, if you can't get the girl out on a date after 2 weeks why bother? Why keep trying? That's my point, she's gonna forget about you and you should forget about her and move on.

And speaking of....Leo, I seriously don't know what the hell you're talking about. You either have a reading comprehension problem or you're responding to someone else because you're definitely not having a discussion based on anything I've said.

[Jon]

(04-27-2012 05:27 PM)baller08 Wrote:  This is a really great forum with a good diverse set of individuals. But the one negative I see is that the heavy hitters here push the end goal so hard that they tend to forget that a lot of the fearful, nice guys can't understand what you're saying.

You have to guide these guys to do some "high effort" activities so they can get some results before they understand what true efficiency is. Otherwise you just make them feel even worse because they can't possibly execute in Month 1 what you guys who are in Year 7 are talking about.

I see what you are saying in theory but using that elaborate game-y stuff never really helped me very much. It's more trouble trying to absorb than it is worth in my experience.


It may help some other guys more, I haven't really met very many people who it has helped in that way. I think the tendency is for guys to get bogged down in the details of this or that method and ignore what works and what signals they are getting. That said, I never coached anyone, and I tend to defer in areas such as that to guys like Mark, who have.

[baller08]

I understand, Jon. I've coached a lot of guys over the last 8 years and it's a combination of what I'm saying and what you're saying. Yes, definitely can't let them get bogged down in details or method...that creates other problems. And yes, that is a very easy tendancy for these recovering nice guys to do because a lot of them are analytical by nature and not social, which is one of the reasons why they're in this situation in the first place.

But we can't tell these guys to just "go up and flirt" or "just compliment them on their boots and confidently ask them out". They'll strike out 499 out of 500 times at their current mindset and thought process. They won't even reach 500, the frustration will be too deep. We can't ask someone to lose 200lbs all of a sudden, they have to see that first pound come off, then second pound and so forth so they see some progress.

What Mark and some of you are trying to avoid is the guy losing 50lbs and being happy with that and not seeing that he still has 150lbs left to lose. You're also trying to make sure they don't do "quick fix dieting" (ie: gamey stuff). I get that and you'll get no disagreements from me there. I've said time and again how lazy guys are and that there are no short cuts.

[playmaker001]

@Baller@ Mace and whoever else:

You're completely wrong, that's what I do care about is the people on here that are trying to learn game from the basics. Have I not made a whole thread advocating good advice and even told people to stop bashing Mace? The "who knows" post was of course a joke, but it made sense. One of the ways I like to protect the readers is by keeping them from any mental masturbation. That's what Mace was doing, and let me show you how by quoting Mace: [i]"This was a "maybe" girl that I could have converted to a "yes" girl with some text & phone game tactics, but instead became a "no" girl."[/i]

This is FALSE and the whole reason I even started the argument. In your INITIAL interaction, you'll have Yes girls, maybe girls and no girls. The whole idea of the approach is to pull the yes girls and convert the maybe girls into yes girls. Let me repeat myself, you convert maybe girls into yes girls DURING the initial approach. To tell beginners on here that don't know better, phone game is the way to pull these "maybe" and probably "no" girls, is ridiculous and utterly wrong. Guys curious about what to do on this forum, try Mace's phone game to your heart's desire. But, it's only going to work on girls who you've already established some sort of romantic connection with. Even if you didn't know if she was into you at the time, she does.

Mace what you do, becomes an evil guessing game. I advocate learning infield whether a girl's into you and learning certain social cues, if you will. getting your game tight during the approach so there's almost no mystery as to whether she's into you or not. That way, when you text a girl, she's more likely to go on a romantic date with you. And if she doesn't respond, you move on because there's nothing you can do about it. You ran tight game in the initial approach, so her not responding is all on her, not you. I do this all the time, and when a girl doesn't respond I delete her number. Girls who I had some romantic connection with often end up texting ME later on. Who knows why she didn't respond at first after I did all I could do in the initial approach. It could be anything, so no use beating myself up for it. She eventually hit ME up later on, not because of the sick game I ran on her through text, but because of the connection in person. Mace, your guessing game is mental masturbation and I've already seen guys F'd up over it, like Oldguy for example.

You named this thread "How to Stop Flaking- My Method" and asked for input. My input was "it's bullshit". That is all.

[baller08]

Goddamn, you guys seriously have a reading comprehension problem. Who is going to disagree with this?

Quote: In your INITIAL interaction, you'll have Yes girls, maybe girls and no girls. The whole idea of the approach is to pull the yes girls and convert the maybe girls into yes girls. Let me repeat myself, you convert maybe girls into yes girls DURING the initial approach.

Even the dumbest guy on here isn't going to disagree with that! What I'm saying is that IF you only had a few minutes and only got a chance to build some attraction and curiousity that understanding how to continue some of that conversation with text or phone banter is helpful before you make plans with her.

That's not game or "mental masturbation" that's simply continuing the damn conversation....it's FUN...it's fun for her and should be fun for you! If you had a little longer and developed a better connection than subsequent texting and phone calls are less necessary.

No one is advocating to think about one girl for days or weeks on end. I've never seen Mace say that. When he no longer does college day time pick ups and he starts to go to clubs or lounges, he'll need this text stuff less because he'll have more time to actually talk to the girl. But meanwhile he's still getting experience now. There's nothing wrong with that!

No one is telling these recovering nice guys to be shit on the initial interaction and somehow texting something magical is going to change her mind. Why do you guys always go to these extremes? There's a tool for everything and it's just about using it appropriately.

Nobody is wrong here, it's just about where each guy is in his development and abilities.

[playmaker001]

@Baller08: You have a way with words Baller but I have to disagree with you saying "nobody is wrong here" Now, lets see who has a reading comprehension problem. Do you agree with Mace's statement, "Now I've blown myself out. This was a "maybe" girl that I could have converted to a "yes" girl with some text & phone game tactics, but instead became a "no" girl. "

If you do agree with it, than I gave you too much credit about you knowing your stuff than you deserved.

[baller08]

Well first off all, playmaker, with all due respect...I don't really care what type of credit you think I deserve.

To answer your question, no I don't agree with that statement in conjunction to the text he posted because that wasn't a "maybe" girl. If she was a "maybe" girl she would have played along with some of the baits he put out such as the personal tour guide with bad pay, her being the calm one, or the house mother thing.

But he did clearly say this: "...addressing your initial interaction as well as your follow-up will enhance your game over time." I like his attitude in wanting to look at all sides of the interaction with women. He's not fearful in trying out different things. A lot of guys here could use some of that attitude. In time he'll drop some things that he finds not that efficent but he'll still gain tons of experience from it.

This is a long process, longer for some than others. Those of us who are on the other side, we can't let our experience discourage guys from experimenting. There's no wrong tools, our job is simply to help them understand when to appropriately use it.

[Jon]

(04-27-2012 08:45 PM)baller08 Wrote:  I understand, Jon. I've coached a lot of guys over the last 8 years and it's a combination of what I'm saying and what you're saying. Yes, definitely can't let them get bogged down in details or method...that creates other problems. And yes, that is a very easy tendancy for these recovering nice guys to do because a lot of them are analytical by nature and not social, which is one of the reasons why they're in this situation in the first place.

But we can't tell these guys to just "go up and flirt" or "just compliment them on their boots and confidently ask them out". They'll strike out 499 out of 500 times at their current mindset and thought process. They won't even reach 500, the frustration will be too deep. We can't ask someone to lose 200lbs all of a sudden, they have to see that first pound come off, then second pound and so forth so they see some progress.

What Mark and some of you are trying to avoid is the guy losing 50lbs and being happy with that and not seeing that he still has 150lbs left to lose. You're also trying to make sure they don't do "quick fix dieting" (ie: gamey stuff). I get that and you'll get no disagreements from me there. I've said time and again how lazy guys are and that there are no short cuts.

Yeah I see what you are saying in general but in the context of what Mace is talking about, the elaborate text-to-call, is actually way over-analyzing an interaction way past the point of dimishing returns. If I have had 4 back and forth texts with a girl, either she's into me or she's not. I don't think I can get a girl into me at that point by getting her on the phone for 10 minutes on a false pretense. I have no idea how to do it, I don't think it would work, and it actually sounds quite a bit more difficult than having a good interaction in the first place. I really don't think anyone, at any skill level, can get a significant improvement in results by "mastering text game." Maybe a little bit better with a lot of effort, but not drastically better (unless you say dumb shit via text, in which case, you can get a lot better by learning to not do that, obv.).

[Leo]

Mark, can you please close this thread? This is way too much over-analysis. We are going in circles here.

[Mark]

Yeah, enough circle-jerking fellas... hope it was good for you.