Hitting a wall in "mid-game"

[Trent845]

Hi guys,

Since this is my first post, here's the relevant context: I'm a good looking guy with good natural social skills, trying to overcome a long tradition of choking the moment an attractive woman comes into view. Beginning a few years ago, I dove deep into PUA, and that only made me more self-conscious about how I talked, my posture, my words, etc. Total train wreck. I'm grateful for finding Mark's site, and his book Models is the single best text I've read on this subject.

Here's the problem: I'm the type of person who needs to visualize something before I do it. So I can visualize myself approaching and charming an attractive woman. I can also visualize myself in bed with her. But I can't visualize ANY of what happens in between those two dramatic events.

This problem has plagued me forever, which is why I've only dated women who I've worked with (disastrous) or who I'd been friends with (equally disastrous). Now that I don't work in an office environment, I have no means through which to encounter the same attractive woman on a regular basis. I have to make the most of a single random encounter.

In movies and TV, you'll notice that they skip over that middle part between the meeting and the sex. Even most PUAs gloss over it, talking either too broadly about escalation or too specifically about changing locations, when that may not be appropriate for having met a girl in a gym, as I like to do.

So here's my question: Assuming there's a physical attraction, is there a generic, location-neutral method to getting her alone? What on earth happens between the first encounter and the bedroom?

[Jon]

That's a big question. One thing to do is arrange a date. There is no location-neutral method because different things are appropriate for different situations. If a girl is working out, get her number and set up a date for later. If you meet somebody at a bar, you might suggest moving to a different location.

Also, I have no idea what you mean by "I'm the type of person who needs to visualize something before I do it." That sounds like an excuse. You are capable of proceeding through trial and error.

[Trent845]

(04-18-2012 07:31 PM)Jon Wrote:  Also, I have no idea what you mean by "I'm the type of person who needs to visualize something before I do it." That sounds like an excuse. You are capable of proceeding through trial and error.

Well, yeah. It's an excuse. But isn't every obstacle an excuse? Does knowing it's an excuse make it easier to overcome? Alas, not in my experience.

I'll build on my question by offering some more specific details. I open girls by saying hello and smiling. Keep it simple, right? And I get a feeling for whether she's game or not. Next I say, "You're cute. What's your name?" Again, a pretty mild compliment without necessarily any strings attached and I like the idea of giving her another chance to opt out, because I think that shows social skill and low investment.

I go to the gym a lot, and on any given day, I see a dozen girls who are attractive. What's my mid-game move after breaking the ice with the banter above?

[Halo Effect]

That's not mid-game. That's 10 seconds in! Are you comfortable holding conversations with women you just met? Do you feel you are good at just talking and getting to know her?

[Trent845]

(04-18-2012 08:57 PM)Halo Effect Wrote:  That's not mid-game. That's 10 seconds in! Are you comfortable holding conversations with women you just met? Do you feel you are good at just talking and getting to know her?

Frankly, no I'm not particularly good at executing those first few moments of chatter without becoming extremely tense. She picks up on that, and the whole thing unravels. Either I lunge for comfort-building by making dull small talk. Or I go for broke by escalating. You can literally see her initial attraction to me draining from her face. A vision that tends to haunt me till the next approach.

The root of the problem, maybe, is that I'm not really curious about the girl I approach. In that moment, I just want to have sex with her. And if she proves to be an interesting, engaging personality, then that's just a bonus.

But logically, I do want a relationship, rather than just sex. It's just that sex instinct overwhelms the rational interest in a relationship, such that in the initial encounters with an attractive woman, I'm faking a personality-based interest in her. Because I'm mindful of faking that, I think it adds to my being self-conscious.

Maybe I can learn to become *genuinely* curious about women I'm attracted to. And maybe that would help me bridge the gap between approach and bed?

[Chaos]

Here are my thought on the subject:

First of all, you seem to struggle a little bit about how to get her alone. Keep in mind and try to remind that if she's attracted to you she wants to be alone with you as much as you want to be alone with her so she'll make it easy for you. In addition she also wants to have sex with you if she's attracted. She's your biggest fan.

We all approach based on physical attraction, and, like you, I personally approach just looking for sex, although I'm usually open to something else. Still you have to acknowledge that things (mostly) do not work like that with women. A girl might approach you just wanting to have sex, act as if she doesn't care the slightest bit about your personality and you'll still fuck her. This is less common with girls (although it happens). So taking that into account you have to express a genuine interest in her.

There's nothing wrong with what you're feeling, with just wanting sex with the girl... but that just doesn't work, and even if it did, I not completely sure we'll want things that way. So given that, you have to learn to actually hold a conversation and connecting with the girl without thinking (too much) in the sex part.

This is something I've seen a lot with good looking guys. You see them approach (sometimes), say something and then you can see the conversation and attraction fading away. That's because that approach says something to the girl, it says "here are my looks, that's all I have to offer, that's what I consider the best part of me"... and the girl is immediatly turn off by that (that's why looks matter but they matter far less than other things BTW)... So develop your conversation skills, take Marks program, talk to girls you're not sexually interested in and try to enjoy those conversations.

For example some months ago I had this talk with an overweight chick I wasn't attracted to at all... I though she was attracted to me (who wouldn't ), and I was a little tense... But then she mentioned she had a boyfriend and I relaxed and started enjoying the conversation, and it was the best moment in the night, we talked for an hour, sharing stories and annecdotes, touching every subject and it was a lot of fun. You can try that... what I think you need to do is develop your conversational skills.

[Trent845]

(04-19-2012 09:19 AM)Chaos Wrote:  This is something I've seen a lot with good looking guys. You see them approach (sometimes), say something and then you can see the conversation and attraction fading away. That's because that approach says something to the girl, it says "here are my looks, that's all I have to offer, that's what I consider the best part of me"... and the girl is immediatly turn off by that (that's why looks matter but they matter far less than other things BTW)...

Wow, I've never really thought of it that way. But yep, I'm that guy. Other guys and girls assume that I'm getting all kinds of action, but I'm definitely not. When I first got interested in PUA, I was stunned to learn about IOIs. My confidence was so low, I had no clue how many women were beckoning me to approach, or responding favorably when I assumed they were shooting me down. A shit test would make me fold like a cheap tent!

And yet even now that I know a girl finds me attractive, I still struggle to work up the nerve to talk to her. I dread that moment you describe, when she decides she misjudged me. When a woman sees an attractive guy, I think she probably assumes that he's also confident and when she discovers -- like in my case -- that he's not, it kills her buzz. Attraction vanishes.

Anyway, thanks to you and the others for helping provide insight, even though it's clear that I'm the only one who can resolve this issue. I'm going to take Mark's program, although I just moved to a new city and need to get some fundamental issues settled first.

[Halo Effect]

(04-19-2012 11:03 PM)Trent845 Wrote:  

(04-19-2012 09:19 AM)Chaos Wrote:  This is something I've seen a lot with good looking guys. You see them approach (sometimes), say something and then you can see the conversation and attraction fading away. That's because that approach says something to the girl, it says "here are my looks, that's all I have to offer, that's what I consider the best part of me"... and the girl is immediatly turn off by that (that's why looks matter but they matter far less than other things BTW)...

Wow, I've never really thought of it that way. But yep, I'm that guy. Other guys and girls assume that I'm getting all kinds of action, but I'm definitely not. When I first got interested in PUA, I was stunned to learn about IOIs. My confidence was so low, I had no clue how many women were beckoning me to approach, or responding favorably when I assumed they were shooting me down. A shit test would make me fold like a cheap tent!

And yet even now that I know a girl finds me attractive, I still struggle to work up the nerve to talk to her. I dread that moment you describe, when she decides she misjudged me. When a woman sees an attractive guy, I think she probably assumes that he's also confident and when she discovers -- like in my case -- that he's not, it kills her buzz. Attraction vanishes.

That's not what Chaos means! Correct me if I'm wrong Chaos, but what I believe Chaos means is that women dislike men who are confident just because of their looks, and who believe that women should be into them simply because they look the way they look. The attractive man in that scenario approaches like "Here are my looks, and you should like me just for that (and that's all I am)". That is shallow and arrogant!

My story at this point is that I used to be very shy and insecure and basically afraid of girls, and after a few years of working on myself I have overcome these issues to a large degree. And my experience is that these stories of insecurities make you more attractive to women. Your flaws and insecurities make you human. Especially if you are attractive.

Neediness is not attractive. A victim mentality is not attractive. But if you can be vulnerable and just show who you are, then there will be many girls who will feel fortunate that they can have a guy who is attractive, while at the same time being humble and sensitive!

Recently I was on a date, and the girl told me halfway through that I seemed too smooth, too confident. I was shocked, and I told her how I used to be super shy and how hard I had worked to get to this point, and that I considered it a compliment, considering my past. The girl's interest grew instantly when she heard my story, because she now didn't think I was arrogant, but that I had more depth.

An ex of mine said something similar. She said that she usually didn't like guys who looked like me, because they are often arrogant pricks (apparently I had the same looks/hair as some rich Stockholm boys). I was sensitive and vulnerable and all that, and that's what made her like me.

[Chaos]

Yeah, good looking guys can be and present themselves as far as confident as anyone. I meant was Halo is saying, that you see some great looking guys screwing things up either by approaching awkwardly or by expecting their looks to do all the work and the girl to just have sex with them just based on that.

Like if they're saying, listen, "I'm good looking, I've already made a lot of work at the gym and spent a lot of money to get my clothes and everything, so my part of the job is done and I don't wanna do anything else... I just expect you to sleep with me based on that". It doesn't have anything to do with confidence (and BTW most of them doesn't irradiate confidence) but with the mindset of pretending the girl to like them just based on those physical traits. Classical example: The guy in the club with a neckline deeper than the one of the chick they're talking to, with pretty big muscles, an awkward forced smile, looking around for pray.

[Trent845]

(04-20-2012 12:29 PM)Halo Effect Wrote:  That's not what Chaos means! Correct me if I'm wrong Chaos, but what I believe Chaos means is that women dislike men who are confident just because of their looks, and who believe that women should be into them simply because they look the way they look. The attractive man in that scenario approaches like "Here are my looks, and you should like me just for that (and that's all I am)". That is shallow and arrogant!

OK, I really appreciate this feedback. But let me make sure I understand you guys. You're saying it's fine that I have nice clothes and a good physique -- I can keep that. But I have to be less self-conscious about my looks, more casual. Let my personality do all the work. Instead of sly and mysterious, I should be outgoing and friendly. I should also practice a lack of self-consciousness about my vulnerabilities -- that part of Mark's lesson definitely struck a chord with me.

Am I getting warm?

[Chaos]

Yes, more or less. Is not that you have to be less self-concious about your looks, but you don't let that be the thing that defines your attractiveness. Flip the script, a girl who is hot is good, but a girl who is hot AND has a great personality, a great lifestyle, you can talk with her about whatever and is fun, is a dream come true.

What I'm saying is that you have to aim at becoming that, a guy that not only is hot, but who also has all those other traits that are even more valuable than looks, that girls would love to talk to and also fuck... because most girl won't fuck a guy they're not able to connect with, and what the hell, because it feels great being that guy anyway.