Here's a reason why i dislike Ayn Rand and most objectivist

[Brian]

Base on my two experience with two people i know in real life who became an Ayn Rand devotee, here's are the hypocrisy i saw from them.

Both of them achieve fairly good financial, however, they could not have gotten to their level today had they not went to public elementary, public high, public university AND financial aids.

However, nowaday, all they do are complaining that united state spends too much tax payers money on public education, nevermind that the federal budget for public education are only 50 billions compare to almost a trillion on defense spending.

When i talked to them about the 8 trillion dollars bank bailout and the almost 1 trillion or almost 10 trillion money that we spend on defense contractor on that fucking WORTHLESS war on iraq, guess what these two do? They said that my complains are unreasonable and they start to direct it back to how we waste so much spending on useless things like public education.

Ayn Rand preaches self interest aka selfishness. Basically, it doesnt matter if you benefit in anyway from the system, you DONT want anyone else to benefit from it either. Feels like i'm talking to a bunch of fucking idiots.

Oh btw, for almost 2 years, all tyler can do is harping Ayn Rand and atlas shrug over and over. I think one of the biggest reason why he's an immoral piece of shit because he adopted Ayn Rand philosophy.

[Matty]

It always boggles my mind that people bitch and moan about tax money being used to build an inner city school, and turn around and try to justify astronomical expense of the US Military an it's involvement in places like Iraq. That said, I think we should try to separate the followers from the teacher. Don't get me wrong, I think Ayn Rand is full of shit too, but she was reacting to a different world when she wrote her books. In my opinion, I think a lot of people who are drawn to Objectivism tend to be selfish anyway due to other circumstances. Objectivism often becomes a way for these Randroids to justify it to themselves.

Speaking of which, did anyone see some of the presentations lined up for 2011's 21 Convention? I usually just pop on the youtube channel to see Nick Sparks and some of the workout/health guys, but this year there were things like "Introduction to Objectivism", "Firearm Selection", "The Federal Reserve Exposed". WTF. It's like Anthony's trying to pound his own philosophical mantra into everyones heads. Not to mention his fucked up "we are the wolves" line. Bizzare

[Chaos]

I've always being fascinated about how can you tolerate or even like not having universal public health system and universal public education. I mean, if there's something taxes are well spent is public well being and public education...

The way I see it in the States (please something correct me if I'm wrong), the wealthier you are the better your health insurance can be and the better university you get to choose... the fact something like health or education can be based on a class system is just disgusting...

[Edmond Dantès]

Chaos Wrote:I've always being fascinated about how can you tolerate or even like not having universal public health system and universal public education. I mean, if there's something taxes are well spent is public well being and public education...

The way I see it in the States (please something correct me if I'm wrong), the wealthier you are the better your health insurance can be and the better university you get to choose... the fact something like health or education can be based on a class system is just disgusting...

Then you should live in Germany. I am pretty sure we were the first nation that pinned down health insurance and accident insurance in the law. (Bismarck -1883 & 1884) It's kinda fascinating how "you americans" are so angry at Obama because he wanted to do the same in the US a year ago. Different countries, different mentalities, I guess.

But now back to topic:

Haven't really read Atlas Shrugged or any Ayn Rand books, but for those who are into this debate right now, I think this could be a beneficial link for you:

http://mol.redbarn.org/objectivism/Writi...zards.html

[Brian]

Matty Wrote:It always boggles my mind that people bitch and moan about tax money being used to build an inner city school, and turn around and try to justify astronomical expense of the US Military an it's involvement in places like Iraq. That said, I think we should try to separate the followers from the teacher. Don't get me wrong, I think Ayn Rand is full of shit too, but she was reacting to a different world when she wrote her books. In my opinion, I think a lot of people who are drawn to Objectivism tend to be selfish anyway due to other circumstances. Objectivism often becomes a way for these Randroids to justify it to themselves.

Speaking of which, did anyone see some of the presentations lined up for 2011's 21 Convention? I usually just pop on the youtube channel to see Nick Sparks and some of the workout/health guys, but this year there were things like "Introduction to Objectivism", "Firearm Selection", "The Federal Reserve Exposed". WTF. It's like Anthony's trying to pound his own philosophical mantra into everyones heads. Not to mention his fucked up "we are the wolves" line. Bizzare

There's a lot of issues i have with anthony dream's preaches. One of which is that he brought into the paleo diet. While yes, eating more vegetable and more protein are good...they also think eating more animal fats are good. This kind of thinking is extremely dangerious and in the long run, people will easily suffer heart disease, high chlolesteroid etc. I think a while back i found a long ass video that completely debunk the bullshits of paleo lifestyle as nothing more than low carbs, keto diet with tons of bullshit going in. Mark sisson, the champion of paleo diet does NOT have a phd degree in bio and should not have make so much statement on it. Like objectivist, i felt the paleo community are similiar to one of those cults and doesnt seem to allow any other view point to go into them and follow their own belief system blindly. Between the bullshit of objectivism and paleoism, the 21convention videos are a joke.

[Matty]

Brian Wrote:There's a lot of issues i have with anthony dream's preaches. One of which is that he brought into the paleo diet. While yes, eating more vegetable and more protein are good...they also think eating more animal fats are good. This kind of thinking is extremely dangerious and in the long run, people will easily suffer heart disease, high chlolesteroid etc. I think a while back i found a long ass video that completely debunk the bullshits of paleo lifestyle as nothing more than low carbs, keto diet with tons of bullshit going in. Mark sisson, the champion of paleo diet does NOT have a phd degree in bio and should not have make so much statement on it. Like objectivist, i felt the paleo community are similiar to one of those cults and doesnt seem to allow any other view point to go into them and follow their own belief system blindly. Between the bullshit of objectivism and paleoism, the 21convention videos are a joke.

I really enjoyed those diet and workout videos as a guy who follows a mostly paleo diet anyway. But yes, if he's doing presentations on nutrition and fitness, he should have the integrity to allow dissenting views. As for animal fats being extremely dangerous, I'm not concerned really. There still hasn't been a clinical study to my knowledge on saturated fat and disease, and I've known way too many long living healthy elderly people who pack on the animal fat and don't kick the bucket till well into their 80's. This seems to be a problem with followers, not systems. A lot of the people who are super active online in the paleo community are incredibly obnoxious, and too ingrained in their own beliefs to consider a dissenting viewpoint. We can also say the same thing about the PUA Community and vegetarians. I really don't give a shit if people want to follow a vegetarian diet and have no interest "debunking" their claims if it's something they obviously get benefit from. But I definitely don't appreciate the brow beating vegetarians, most of whom are no more qualified to "debunk" meat eating than the paleo fanatics.

[Brian]

Hey, despite i'm being vegetarian, if you want to eat meat, go ahead. As long as you do it in a way that makes sense, like people in the body building community eating skinless chicken breast or tuna. But eating massive amount of fat(or a steak which has 95 percent fat) like mark sisson said is ridicolous.

As for people "living until they're 80" eating tons of animal fat, let me just say one thing, genetic. With genetic, you can smoke 2 packs of cigerette per day and still live until you're 90s(if i dig hard enough, i'm sure i'll find people who can do this). This logic however cannot expound that smoking 2 pack of cigerette per day are good.

Fucking mark sisson believes that eating 90 percent animal fat diet is simply HEALTHIER than eating tofu, is not only false but completely retarded.

Even i am not bored enough to watch all these videos, but you can watch the entire series of how this guy completely debunked the paleo diet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egqf7k5Lz...ature=plcp

[Matty]

I'm pretty sure Mark Sisson doesn't tell you to eat a diet of 90% animal fat. Vegetables are at the bottom of his food chain, and his main meal consists of a large, vegetable based salad for lunch, and his diet isn't ketogenic. I tend to follow his recommendations for meat intake, and while not all the cuts are lean, I don't really think it's unreasonable. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree, as I don't really buy into the lipid hypothesis, and I don't think anything we can hash out on a forum is going to convince we.

As for the video, well, i'm definitely not going to sit down and watch all 8 hours of this, but from what i've seen, i'm unimpressed. It sounds like a big long "well my science and studies are better than your science and studies" while cherry picking what part of the paleo advocates work he wants to go after to suit his argument. I'm also put off in general when people start their arguments by going after someones credentials. It's not an ad hominem per say, but still. And the last video and his passive aggressive guilt trip for a vegan diet was pretty obnoxious. So, debunked isn't quite the word i'd use.

I will say that people who follow a plant based vegetarian diet (as oppose to say a Doritos's based vegetarian diet) are heads and tales healthier than the majority of the population shovelling shit down their throats. I have a friend who likes to rant how vegetarians are unhealthy. Funny how he always seems to have a milkshake or can of prinkles in his hand while he does it.

[Brian]

I personally have a bit more objective view that if you eat skinless chicken breast or tuna, you'll be fine. But have you actually look at the back of the nutritional content of beef? A while back, out of boredom, i walked with my friend and decided to look what kind of calories presented in frozen beef pork etc. It's basically 80 percent fat. Once you fry that shit up, it's 90 percent fat. Like i said, had mark sisson said only lean beef, skinless chicken breast etc then i would've been cool with his argument. But his "fat is good" argument is actually pretty dangerious for your health. I'm not going to do anymore research on that because frankly, it doesnt affect my health at all, but you really should put in a bit more effort to find out how it affects you. You dont want to wake up one day and discover your blood clog with chloresterol.

[Harry Potter]

Dietary cholesterol doesn't convert directly to cholesterol in your body. Fat in itself isn't bad, it's overconsumption of fat along with carbs that causes problems. Traditional diets of the Inuit, the Maasai, Chukchi, among the hunter-gatherer groups still surviving today include high proteins and fats with little carbs and their blood profiles are much better than people living on modern diets.

On the other side of the coin, there's nothing wrong with carbs, especially if you have a low body fat percentage -- Okinawans live to be active while into their 80s and beyond while having a moderately high carb intake (along with pork, tofu, seaweed etc). If you're fat, low carb may be good temporarily to reset your insulin sensitivity.

[Brian]

I guess it might be the combination of fat and carbs that screw you up. Asians have been surviving on carbs for centuries. If you look at our dietary, it's basically 300+ grams of carbs for most people and none of them suddenly drop dead. In fact, most of them have higher life expectancy than most americans. However, having massive amount of fat in your diet and if some day, you decided to consume tons of carbs, it's like an atomic bomb waiting to happen in your body and will completely fucks it up.

Another thing i want to point out, you actually need carbs. Here's a fact, your brain consume at least 500 calories per day just to function and guess what's their primary energy source...its' glucose aka carbs. Mark Sisson believes you can convert protein and fat into glucose, i cannot debate if that's true, but the thing is, it's a very inefficient way of doing things. Your body for the most part will not put in that amount of effort to convert protein/fat into glucose or at least do it very slowly. As a result, you will have massive carb craving and feel dull. Especially for college students, it's really stupid to go into extreme low carb diet because you need the sugar for your brain.

I'm always an advocate of "balance living", meaning 30 percent of your diet should comes from carb, 30 percent protein and 30 percent fat. If you live in this way in a balance way and consume most of your carb from green vegetable, you should consume enough fiber that your overall calories intake will be so low you'll lose weight.

Btw, the whole belief system that massive consumption of animal fat is ok is ONLY in the paleo community. If you been following paleo for a while, i STRONGLY urge you to go to the doctor and check your cholesterol blood level. Dont be so stupid to believe in mark sisson and completely ignore science.

[Harry Potter]

I'm not really into the whole paleo movement but from what I've heard, Sisson doesn't actually push low carb, he's just anti-wheat. From what I've read elsewhere regarding gluten from wheat triggering auto-immune response, this is actually justified. Rice, quinoa, spelt and other grains are still OK on paleo, as well as sweet potatoes, yams, tapioca and potatoes. Paleo also recommends lots of veggies. It basically is something like what you're saying with 40% protein and 30% carbs and 30% fats. You're probably misunderstanding it slightly, no offence, there' no way a normal steak could be 90% fat -- according to Fitday, one T-bone steak has 33g fat and 60g protein, a little high on the fats, but nothing like 90%.

[Brian]

Harry Potter Wrote:I'm not really into the whole paleo movement but from what I've heard, Sisson doesn't actually push low carb, he's just anti-wheat. From what I've read elsewhere regarding gluten from wheat triggering auto-immune response, this is actually justified. Rice, quinoa, spelt and other grains are still OK on paleo, as well as sweet potatoes, yams, tapioca and potatoes. Paleo also recommends lots of veggies. It basically is something like what you're saying with 40% protein and 30% carbs and 30% fats. You're probably misunderstanding it slightly, no offence, there' no way a normal steak could be 90% fat -- according to Fitday, one T-bone steak has 33g fat and 60g protein, a little high on the fats, but nothing like 90%.

There is no misunderstanding dude. I read the nutritional content of the back of the steak that i pickup at your local supermarket.

It's usually read something along the line of 15 grams of fat and 15 grams of protein per serving. 15 * 9 = 135 and 15 * 4 = 60. So 135/200 are roughly 70 percent fat. However, this is frozen meat and people usually fried it with more oil...which increase it to 90 percent. Another thing i pickup when i hangout with my friend is that they never calculate the calories but always measure it by gram. So 15 grams of fat and 15 grams of protein, therefore it's 50 percent fat base on grams!! LOL. Actually, when you pickup a local frozen hamburger, it's more like 20 grams of fat and 15 grams of protein. You do the math.

Finally, when you watch the21convention, mark sisson brags about how he puts more "whip cream" on his drink in the morning because "i'm all about the fat", i can only shake my head. I hope his followers do hardcore research before buying into his bs.

[Matty]

Like I said, I'm not really concerned. I'm a pretty big hypochondriac, so I get checked up pretty regularly. Most of the demonization of animal fats comes from the lipid hypothesis, which is called a hypothesis for a reason. I think we've already seen a lot of compelling evidence that Ancel Keys findings were dodgy, and I think in the next ten years especially, we're going to see a major trend against this hypothesis. So thanks, but I'll take my chances. As for the Asian diet, Asia's a big continent. I don't know much about south east Asia, but in Korea, I think people would be shocked to see just how much animal fat these people consume, mostly from traditional food that's been around for a while. Conventional wisdom dies a hard death.

[Brian]

Ok, continue discussion about the damaging effect of Ayn Rand to our society. Ayn Rand believes that with self-interest and zero regulation, everything will fix itself.

Let's look at how one of her disciple who subscribe to this belief system fucked up our society. It's none other than everyone's favorite economist, Alan Greenspan. Alan Greenspan push for lower regulation as well as do not listen to other economist because he totally subscribe to Ayn Rand's philosophy, and as a result, we're now all fucked.

Her recent disciple Mr Ron Paul is now trying to run for a president. While I will give him credit that at least he's not a liar or corrupted as other politicians, his headspace is not in the right place. He completely subscribe to Ayn Rand philosophy:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjwuGHPil...re=related

Why the fuck would any of us wants to vote for someone who believes in ayn rand philosophy when not long ago, a person who did fucked us all up? Stupid. Unfortunately, most people are too stupid to think this far and understand how it works.