Fun times with Vulnerability and Neediness!

[Creatine Dreams]

Been reading Mark's articles on vulnerability and the "pain period" and I must say they are quite eye opening.

Anyways, here is my sad story. I will try to make it short.

Grew up as a fat kid and did not have many friends. I was incredibly embarrassed about this and I could not talk to anyone about that.

It was during this time that I became very needy regarding people's attention. I felt that once I met a friend, I would want to hang out with them as much as possible because I had been deprived of companionship for so long. (This pattern still continues today.)

When I made it to high school, I finally learned how to be "cool". I was able to create a persona that was fun and I developed a great sense of humor. While these qualities are genuinely who I am, they do not tell the entire story. I was also a serious and sensitive person but was terrified (and still am) to show that side to people.

While I made inroads in making friends and acquaintances, I still felt very alone and was still terrified in dealing with the opposite sex. I was a talented musician and I felt that quality alone would lead me to getting a beautiful woman to be interested in me.

Finding a great woman of course, did not happen for me. This became a great source of shame in my life. Although my close friends knew I had a problem, I did not really talk to them about it out of embarrassment.

Eventually, I discovered "Without Embarrassment" by Mike Pilinski. (Great Book, btw) I started making small, improvements in dealing with women. I vastly improved my appearance and started getting drunk and actively hitting on women at bars. Occasionally, I would get lucky and make out with a girl, but not much more.

Eventually, I asked my neighbor out on a date. I was charming during the date and at the end of the night, we made out and I invited her to my apartment. I probably could have had sex with her, but I did not. The next week I tried to hook up with her again but I acted too needy and that ruined it. This made me depressed for about 6 months.

After that, I realized my problems ran deeper than simply women. I decided to go back to school and moved away from my home state to another state for a fresh start. I decided to put my issues with women on the backburner and just focus on having a good time and becoming a better person.

I think this was a good idea. Everyone thought I was a really cool person as I was very good at bringing a good energy to my interactions with people. I was well dressed, witty, friendly and I suppose I became very good at acting confident. People thought I was a player, even though I had very little experience with women.

In hindsight, I think this may be a problem. On one hand, I am great at creating a first impression with women. But on the other hand, this persona is not congruent with who I am inside which is a person who is very lonely and lacking love.

The dilemma seems to be that on one hand, I love the feeling of being cool. But on the other hand, I need to be able to express my insecurities to people and I am terrified of doing so because I do not want to turn them off to me or destroy the carefully cultivated image I created for myself.

Anyways, fast forward to two months ago. I met a girl, she became really interested in me and we started dating. She completely thought that I was a player and that I saw tons of women. She was a really cool girl who was nice, intelligent and pretty. This was my first relationship.

Funny thing was, I tried to be open with her about certain things and she simply did not believe me. For example, after we had been dating for a month, I told her that I was nervous on our first date but she did not believe me. On one hand, I felt proud that I had such a convincing air of confidence but on the other hand, I felt terrible because I knew that deep down inside, I was still very insecure.

Right now, I feel that this relationship is on the decline. I feel that she may be losing interest due to my needy behavior. I will try to rectify the situation the best I can. But even if I do not succeed, being with her was still a good learning experience for me.

And now, I am at a crossroads. For the longest time, I thought that if I got a girlfriend, I would never have to admit how long I had been single and alone for. But ultimately, I think that holding on to this idealized image of myself that I created is preventing me from becoming an actualized and real person.

I guess at this point, I need to start opening up to people. Maybe my parents, maybe my friends who I trust, I just don't know. But I am running out of time.

[Tim]

I don't have the time right now to give this the response it deserves man, but congrats on doing this post, and it sounds like you're starting to see the direction you should be heading in.

[Creatine Dreams]

Hey thanks, dude! I understand that people lead busy lives! And believe me, I am trying!

[Chaos]

Props on your honesty!!

I feel pretty much identified with everything you say in the post. I too grew up as a fat kid and while I didn't have any problems making friends I was so eager to be accepted and to have friends that I developed a nice guy personality straight away. In my case being fat and intelligent isolated me a little bit from the rest of the kids on the school so I never learnt to be confident and trust myself... and I'm not a good actor so I didn't have any kind of confidence, not even fake confidence.

Luckily I hit my first girlfriend when I was 16, due to both of us being young and in the same social circle, not because I was good at cold approaching or had any confidence whatsoever... we'll call it luck. Then I started losing a little weight and as a result I get a "little" boost on confidence (but not much, because the fat kid complex lags a lot even when you've actually lost weight, it does from time to time even now) which lead me to my next girlfriend... with whom I'll spent another five years... out of fear of being alone and not being accepted. Then after some time I discovered "The Game" and of course that changed my views... the main thought being "it can be done".

But those feelings are pretty normal, take it as a process of self improvement. Is you're anything like me you are the kind of guy who is in the community because he thinks he's really good but "girls are not able to see him how he truly is" or you end up being friend-zoned time after time. It will change, with time, and I think that you posting this and really confronting it will help a lot. I didn't do it, I can see it like that looking back, but I wasn't honest enough with my self to actually accept what was happening. I used to think that every girl just didn't know me well enough, then that girls were fucked up for hanging out with other guys (who, unlike me, had the balls to actually express their desires and sexuality, but I couldn't accept that) which were clearly worse than I was. In the end you end up getting a hold to yourself and accepting yourself the way you are while still working on improving.

[CharlesB]

(03-22-2012 11:28 PM)Chaos Wrote:  Then I started losing a little weight and as a result I got a "little" boost on confidence (but not much, because the fat kid complex lags a lot even when you've actually lost weight, it does from time to time even now)

Seems there are a lot of us here.Same weight experience.
And I realized it more (that still this complex is operating in my unconscious mind) some days before when Mark wrote about that story with elephants and the rope.

[Alvar]

Wow man. It takes a lot to put that out like that.
Did you say in another post that you are 34? That's my age too, my therapist says that men start looking around for answers and realise they need qualified help after their mid thirties, so we are early birds

You seem to carry a lot of toxic shame with you. I can totally relate to creating a great impression and being paralysed with fear of not living up to the expectations and ending up putting tremendous effort to manage the outcomes and the superficial relationships. Too much work, so little reward...
I am guessing that you are already familiar with threads here related to vulnerability and neediness - Zac's video/thread is listed bellow and have probably read on the subject - No More Mr. Nice Guy is usually prescribed here as introductory literature. You'd probably benefit from finding someone that you could trust and talk to about this, since you probably have quite a bit bottled up. Not necessarily a therapist, although that could be great, but not a woman you're dating either, as there's too much in stake.

[Guyintheback]

Hey!

It probably was not easy for you to share that, but it probably will help you.
If you keep all your problems only in your thoughts it will drive you crazy, because either you will constantly think about them or you will constantly try to avoid thinking of them.

I think you read my post, where I tried to share the problems in my life. And for once being open about them really helped me to accept those problems as my own, and feel responsible for my life again.

Also I talked to some friends about those problems, to whom I was too embarrassed to talk about that before, and that helped, too. It felt awkward at first, of course, but in the end, when you don't feel you have things to hide anymore, you'll feel better.

At least, that's my experience.

[Creatine Dreams]

Yeah, I might start trying to talk to my parents or my sister about these types of things. Maybe not to the depth of which I laid it out in this post but at least something.

I might also try reaching out to a few friends and see were that leads me.

I would almost like to join a PUA lair, but I am not sure that the goals they espouse are really congruent with what I am looking for. I sure wish that there was a male support group for people who are in a similar situation as me. I think this site has been the closest thing so far...

[AhuraMazda]

Hello, I really appreciate what you exposed.
Also, as a sidenote, I really appreciate this forum. I almost never post on forum because they tend to become very dogmatic about the topics treated, and here instead I see openess, real reciprocal interest, and important, relevant issues.

I'll answer you that, beside some details, I identify with everything you say.
I was fat, people see me as ballsy, witty, confident, independent, girls think I am a player. I possess these characteristics, they are not fake, but they hide a huge need for approval, a huge insecurity around people, and a great loneliness.
The PUA world gave me the feeling of "yes I can" but also filled me with lot of attraction-obsessed mindsets that just add on the ones that before where just beneath my conscious perception. I can thank them for amplifying my anxiety so I could actually realize I possess it. Or more accurately, that it possesses me.

I like too the feeling of confidence, still I feel it's somehow preventing me to just being FREE. I am stuck, I think like you, in this paradox. How can I get these insecurities out in a way that they get accepted, and somehow purged?
I talked with some friends, relatives and so, but it does not really help.

So, you are not alone, and reading your post, I feel stronger in thinking I am not alone myself. I don't know if it can help, but in the Divine Commedy, Dante states that we never can know the torments going on inside the others.
My great mistake, that I still make on a constant basis, is to see other people, happy, social, and think "it's just me". Imagine all the people that think that you and me are players, confident, because we behave so. Maybe they envy what they think we are, and they don't know the truth.

Answering you, I am answering myself. Maybe empathy could be a solution. We are all on the same boat, and human needs are almost the same for all, I guess. And so shame. Isn't it what Adam and Eve first felt when they knew wrong from right?

[Guyintheback]

(03-23-2012 07:33 PM)Creatine Dreams Wrote:  I would almost like to join a PUA lair, but I am not sure that the goals they espouse are really congruent with what I am looking for. I sure wish that there was a male support group for people who are in a similar situation as me. I think this site has been the closest thing so far...

I have been in a lair briefly. The guys were all nice and friendly, but in the end those evenings turned out to be either "PUA-Nerd-Talk" or "Who does the craziest approach".
I don't want to bad-mouth it, it just wasn't right for me.
And there were no deep conversations about weaknesses or fears or problems, it was more out-alphaing each other. Friendly, but annoying after a while.

Then again, that was just one lair, years ago, for about a year or so.

[Creatine Dreams]

(03-23-2012 11:13 PM)Guyintheback Wrote:  

(03-23-2012 07:33 PM)Creatine Dreams Wrote:  I would almost like to join a PUA lair, but I am not sure that the goals they espouse are really congruent with what I am looking for. I sure wish that there was a male support group for people who are in a similar situation as me. I think this site has been the closest thing so far...

I have been a lair briefly. The guys were all nice and friendly, but in the end those evenings turned out to be either "PUA-Nerd-Talk" or "Who does the craziest approach".
I don't want to bad-mouth it, it just wasn't right for me.
And there were no deep conversations about weaknesses or fears or problems, it was more out-alphaing each other. Friendly, but annoying after a while.

Then again, that was just one lair, years ago, for about a year or so.

Yeah, that is what I am worried about. Not really looking to out-alpha people or anything like that. Just looking for a nice friendly support group where I can get some feedback and guidance

---

(03-23-2012 11:05 PM)AhuraMazda Wrote:  Hello, I really appreciate what you exposed.
Also, as a sidenote, I really appreciate this forum. I almost never post on forum because they tend to become very dogmatic about the topics treated, and here instead I see openess, real reciprocal interest, and important, relevant issues.

I'll answer you that, beside some details, I identify with everything you say.
I was fat, people see me as ballsy, witty, confident, independent, girls think I am a player. I possess these characteristics, they are not fake, but they hide a huge need for approval, a huge insecurity around people, and a great loneliness.
The PUA world gave me the feeling of "yes I can" but also filled me with lot of attraction-obsessed mindsets that just add on the ones that before where just beneath my conscious perception. I can thank them for amplifying my anxiety so I could actually realize I possess it. Or more accurately, that it possesses me.

I like too the feeling of confidence, still I feel it's somehow preventing me to just being FREE. I am stuck, I think like you, in this paradox. How can I get these insecurities out in a way that they get accepted, and somehow purged?
I talked with some friends, relatives and so, but it does not really help.

So, you are not alone, and reading your post, I feel stronger in thinking I am not alone myself. I don't know if it can help, but in the Divine Commedy, Dante states that we never can know the torments going on inside the others.
My great mistake, that I still make on a constant basis, is to see other people, happy, social, and think "it's just me". Imagine all the people that think that you and me are players, confident, because we behave so. Maybe they envy what they think we are, and they don't know the truth.

Answering you, I am answering myself. Maybe empathy could be a solution. We are all on the same boat, and human needs are almost the same for all, I guess. And so shame. Isn't it what Adam and Eve first felt when they knew wrong from right?

I think a large part of the solution is knowing that there are other people who have been through what we are going through and have made it to the other side.

But I think the most important thing is taking action. Not always the easiest thing to do, but usually the only thing that will work.

[luda]

(03-23-2012 11:05 PM)AhuraMazda Wrote:  Hello, I really appreciate what you exposed.
Also, as a sidenote, I really appreciate this forum. I almost never post on forum because they tend to become very dogmatic about the topics treated, and here instead I see openess, real reciprocal interest, and important, relevant issues.

I'll answer you that, beside some details, I identify with everything you say.
I was fat, people see me as ballsy, witty, confident, independent, girls think I am a player. I possess these characteristics, they are not fake, but they hide a huge need for approval, a huge insecurity around people, and a great loneliness.
The PUA world gave me the feeling of "yes I can" but also filled me with lot of attraction-obsessed mindsets that just add on the ones that before where just beneath my conscious perception. I can thank them for amplifying my anxiety so I could actually realize I possess it. Or more accurately, that it possesses me.

I like too the feeling of confidence, still I feel it's somehow preventing me to just being FREE. I am stuck, I think like you, in this paradox. How can I get these insecurities out in a way that they get accepted, and somehow purged?
I talked with some friends, relatives and so, but it does not really help.

So, you are not alone, and reading your post, I feel stronger in thinking I am not alone myself. I don't know if it can help, but in the Divine Commedy, Dante states that we never can know the torments going on inside the others.
My great mistake, that I still make on a constant basis, is to see other people, happy, social, and think "it's just me". Imagine all the people that think that you and me are players, confident, because we behave so. Maybe they envy what they think we are, and they don't know the truth.

Answering you, I am answering myself. Maybe empathy could be a solution. We are all on the same boat, and human needs are almost the same for all, I guess. And so shame. Isn't it what Adam and Eve first felt when they knew wrong from right?

I like how you emphasize the fact that appereance doesnt tell you everything you need to know about a person. Like with you guys people seem to think your players but they dont actually know what you going through personally. With me i tend to give off a I dont give a fuck persona and people always tell me how chilled I am about life and how i dont let things faze me. But they dont know how much small things actually do affect me. That I become insecure when a girl doesnt call me back, that I get jealous when a girl im flinging with is with another guy. Hopefully my self perception will be congruent with how i display myself to the world

[deivid]

I think you guys should read the Rawness article http://therawness.com/reader-letters-1-part-1/
There is a point, that explains that now when you are perceived as players and still insecure inside, you are even in the worst place than you were when you were being fat and approval seeking.
I have the same issue, I was a child of an alcoholic, I was fat, insecure and had no game with women.
Now I am in shape, dress nicely, witty, confident outside, perceived as a player and cool guy. But underneath all the clothes, I am still insecure and needy and now I also have an image of myself to protect.
To sum it up, I never really worked on my core issues - what I did is alot of external work and learned some game.
It has helped me to get massive attraction from girls but in the long run I'm broken, I'm not really myself.
What I have realized is that it is a part of a bigger process, I went from one end of a spectrum to another and I need to find the balance now by being vulnerable and get in touch with my actual true self.

[Chaos]

(03-23-2012 11:05 PM)AhuraMazda Wrote:  I like too the feeling of confidence, still I feel it's somehow preventing me to just being FREE. I am stuck, I think like you, in this paradox. How can I get these insecurities out in a way that they get accepted, and somehow purged?
I talked with some friends, relatives and so, but it does not really help.

Ok, before answering to this, as I'm seeing this as a pattern on the forum let's all agree that we're NOT experts on psychology (except if there's something who is), we don't have a degree and from that point of view all that we can do is take educated guesses. Granted most of us have an interest in psychology and the mind and have been part of a journey but, still, is just an educated guess at best.

And with that said, I gonna disregard that and fucking give my opinion anyway.

I would say you've never fully addressed your insecurities, you just covered them up with an alter ego, an alternative persona that you present out to the world and who is in charge of hiding the real you that you don't want people to discover. That's not universal for all situations, maybe is just with women, just with women you happen to like, just at work... The idea is that you present a different persona to the world than the internal idea of who you are.

This persona is probably an attempt of perfection, always confident, always funny, always flirtatious... And you perceive that as an alter ego that you kind of "dress on" and makes you "not your self" ...

Now you're probably thinking I'm gonna suggest you should dump that alter ego... Wrong!! I gonna suggest you try to accept that even our alter egos are in fact just ourselves... you feel uncomfortable because your alter ego completely suppress what you consider your real persona and thus, you're unhappy. The reality is that both of those are in fact you, but you feel ashamed of one part of yourself and admire the other, you feel like that part of yourself is somehow worst than the funny player guy and that's what causes the discomfort (and by the way that's too what causes the "player image").

When you're with a girl you like, you think that you have to show only your player persona and hide your real persona. In fact, what you have to do is accept that there's only one guy there, and both "masks" are in fact part of yourself, either one of them as good as the other, and in fact either one of them capable of coexisting with each other.

[Creatine Dreams]

Yeah, I have come to realize that the fun loving, confident person I sometimes am is in fact me. And I like that person. But it is not the only me. I am also sensitive, introspective, vulnerable and serious at times. And that person is ok too. I just have to accept him in order for others to...

[AhuraMazda]

You are right Chaos, that is an interesting perspective. Also because the feeling of uncomfort acting more outgoing is also what holds me back from changing, because it tells me that changing is makeing up a false me. It might not be changing, but improving, growing