Fun times with The Notorious PhD - my journal

[The Notorious PhD]

I've decided to start journaling my approaches as a way to process my experiences and diagnose where I might be screwing up. My hope is that I can get some feedback from time to time.

I'm determined to get good at this. For that I'm willing to try anything and challenge any of my beliefs and pre-conceived notions. So feel free to drop yo wisdom on mah ass!

A bit about me: I'm 24 years old, male, mammal, and sort of a huge nerd. I'm comfortable with blunt criticism, so feel free to fire away.

Let's begin:

I always open directly, smiling: Hey, this is kind of random, but I thought you were [kind of cute/beautiful/interesting] and wanted to meet you...

Two comediennes in the grocery store. I thought it was going well because when I asked for my girl's number, her friend suggested that she talk to me and that she'll be over there. To no avail. My girl said: thanks, but even though I'm cute, I came on too strong, almost sleazy. Point taken - I was somewhat aggressive in this interaction (light teasing/banter/etc). Need to temper this.

Three girls at the street intersection. I think the problem here was that I was worrying that they'd soon start walking. This made me speed-up the interaction. Within 2 minutes, I had complimented my girl, introduced myself to all three, asked what they were doing, and followed-up with asking for the number. She was ambivalent, saying she's going to NYC soon. I asked how soon? A few weeks. I replied: Well that's perfect length of time for a passionate fling!. They walked away. Really need to cut out the teasing/attraction stuff.

The English visitors. From the get-go my girl was a bit stand-offish (e.g., she didn't even look in my direction after I opened). Her friend asked if I knew of any outlet malls nearby. So I gave them directions to it. I tried to be very casual during this; also asked my girl in a light-hearted way why she was so closed-off. Asked for her number, and she did that thing where she semi-smiled saying her boyfriend wouldn't appreciate it. So I just smiled and said: okay, I hope you have a nice day.

While the three of us were walking and talking some random dude sitting in a street cafe yelled Hey! Are you bothering these girls?. I just said No and continued walking with the girls. I think I handled that well, but not sure what I would've done if the guy was up in my face about it. What would you do?

Vitamin section girl. She said she doesn't give out her number, but said I could give her my number or chat with her whenever I was in the store. I said okay instead of a number, how about we just set-up a date/time to meet? She would feel bad if she didn't show up, she said. Then show up!, I chuckled in a mock-angry tone. I told her that I can tell she's interested but just feels weird about this. She asked me to write my number down for her. Haven't heard from her - don't think I will. This was my longest set: ~5 minutes.

Things I have to work on

1. Being more casual. Deep down I still feel that it's unnatural/weird to approach women during the day. And also that I don't deserve hot women. This manifests itself in various ways that hinder my game. The serial rejections I've been getting, moreover, do cumulatively drain my spirits. I know that if I keep pushing, these thoughts will go away - or at least I hope so.

2. Being a bit more pushy. Anytime a girl offers the slightest resistance, I move on. But as I've started going out alone, I've noticed that most people (both, women and men) are nervous talking to strangers. So think I need to somehow "plow" a little - enough to get them comfortable. Right now, I think that I'm losing a lot of "Maybe" girls because they're too nervous to say yes, even if they might be interested.

[SeXyBaCk]

Hmm, this is not meant as advice, because I don't know you, how you look, how you behave, but the feeling I get is you might be plowing too hard. You're not building enough connection before asking them out. Take the vitamin girl she would have gone on a date with you I'm sure but you pushed too hard. This is the feeling I got from reading your report.

[The Notorious PhD]

How long should I be staying "in set"? Does building connection during the day essentially amount to more chit-chat?

[The Notorious PhD]

Pissed-off Asian girl. As soon as I opened, my girl just gave a mean scowl and turned away. The lunch place I go to is in a public square with a lot of solicitors for a variety of funds, organizations, etc. And I've realized that opening with Excuse me... doesn't work because girls think you're selling something and they'll knee-jerk shut you out.

I was pretty shaken-up after this set, so took a moment to recollect my thoughts and realize this girl doesn't even know me. Why should I beat myself up over some strangers reactions?

The hungry Hawaiians. Chatted with these two girls who were looking for a place to get lunch (gave them a recommendation). They were on holiday from Hawaii and headed to their next stop in the morning. I felt a good vibe so I invited them both for drinks tonight. Didn't take. Still, their pleasant demeanor lifted my spirits.

The New Yorker. I've been focusing on lengthening my chit-chatting, so set ran ~5 min, as we walked together. I think it's good to volunteer information about oneself, if the girl doesn't ask (as in, Where are you from? Oh, nice, bla bla. I'm from bla bla). She gave me her number and I told her we'll get drinks. I'm leaving town for a few days so sent her a text saying I'll get in touch next week. Hasn't responded yet, but I think she will.

[The Notorious PhD]

Healthychick
Man, she was beautiful. This interaction was confusing but pleasant. This girl sat down by herself at another table at a restaurant. I gave it a few minutes to see if she was waiting for someone, but nobody showed up. Standard opener/introduction. Seconds into the convo, she said something along the lines of: Wow, I'm so disappointed because I have a boyfriend. More chit-chat and she told me she has a lot of cute single friends, though. I figured what the heck, so I gave her my name and number.

Disappointed about the circumstances but here's what I learned: I'm not used to girls complimenting me (or even thinking that they should). It threw me off that she professed her interest, and I couldn't do as much comfort-building as I should have.

The New Yorker
Sent her a follow-up text a few hours ago suggesting date/time to meet this week. Will keep her in the mental buffer till tomorrow, then delete.

[The Notorious PhD]

The reject-trio. Shortest. Rejection. Ever. Hi, I thought you were really cute and wanted to meet you. *Giggle*, hi! What's your name?. I'm Jennifer...*walks away*. Haha, wtf? I might've messed this one up because I sort of jumped in front of this group of three. I couldn't make-up my mind on whether to open the girl nearest to or furthest away from me. Also, the three of them were walking...should I have walked with them? I kind of felt a closed-off vibe, so I didn't push it. Next time, I'll at least follow for a couple yards.

Yoga hottie. Approached her while walking. Since I was holding my lunch, I offered that we eat together. But she was meeting her boyfriend. Where are all the single ladies at, Beyonce??

Things I need to do:

1. Up the approach count. I'll be very happy if I can meet 5 girls in 1 hour. Right now, it's about 2 an hour.

2. I'm gonna think about a basic structure of a convo that would be interesting to me. I still find myself stuck at times during the initial stages, unless the girl I realllly click.

3. I like baller's break-down of the three categories, and I need to figure out a way to record whether I'm making progress in the other two (mindset, lifestyle). I think mindset will just come with time and introspection. I will make a post in the Lifestyle Goals section.

[shadow]

Notorious PhD, switch your focus from conversation etc. to just getting over approach anxiety. You have to get over approach anxiety (and I mean you should have no discomfort at all) before you can consistently connect and escalate. Change your goal from getting girls to getting over approach anxiety. This by itself will take a burden away from your shoulders and you'll be able to talkt to lot of girls. Even if it takes 4-5 months, it's worth it. You'll come out of the other end with rock solid confidence. From there you can work on other things.

[The Notorious PhD]

Thanks for your input shadow!

During all of this I've been keeping track of not only the number of girls I approach, but also the number of girls I see and don't approach. So far, it's 1:1 but my goal is to do exactly what you said, and be comfortable approaching every girl I see.

[baller08]

Do something DIFFERENT

Quote:If you approach and just say weak shit like, "Excuse me, pardon me, sorry, but you're so pretty I had to meet you", then come up with something more indirect, interesting, hooking, intriquing, less awkward and more FUN!

And yes, definitely work on the other 2 areas (Lifestyle and Mindset) because that will make your entire vibe different. I promise you that if you work on those other areas, all of a sudden you'll find that women have less "boyfriends".

Speaking of Mindset, you aren't noticing patterns. You should be learning from all your interactions instead of just seeing what you want to see. For example, the New York girl, she showed pretty much zero signs of attraction, you offered information about yourself even though she never asked, she never responded, but yet after all those factors, you were pretty sure she would.

I don't get that. What part of all your reading and learning led you to believe that in a situation with all those factors that the girl would all of a sudden be open to seeing you again?

You have start to open your eyes and see patterns in your interactions, otherwise you're going to work very hard and see very little results.

I wrote the "do something different" thread because I see so many of you guys working very hard but not very smart. Don't do the same things over and over again. But I respect your efforts and fortitude...just make your process more efficient.

[The Notorious PhD]

@Baller - thanks for the input man. I was waiting for your response and I appreciate the time you take to help us n00bs out. I want some clarification on a few things you said, but I'll write a response to you later.

I did several more approaches over the past few days (15 counting today). Massively rejected, and felt despondent. I had a whole whiny post written that I was going to put-up, but decided to give myself a day to cool off.

I feel much better now. I started reading the Walter Isaacson biography of Steve Jobs, and the choice couldn't be more timely. As a paragon of persistence, his life story is damn inspirational.

I do have a couple questions though:

1. A particular kind of rejection really gets me down. It's where the girl is ultra-dismissive or shows that she's creeped-out by me. Whenever I have a long streak of these I get into a vicious cycle where rejection causes nervousness causes more rejection leading to more nervousness etc. How do I overcome this? I dislike the fact that my behavior/thoughts are so influenced by what a complete random stranger thinks of me, and this is not healthy.

2. Whenever one learns something new, inevitably one will falter and the progress won't be at one's desired pace. How do I not let my lack of progress affect my self-esteem?

[The Notorious PhD]

I'm on the daygame section of Mark's Approach program. Good stuff. I've been practicing that and set-up a day2 with a girl I met in the grocery store for later this week. Will post on how that goes.

Been doing a lot of approaches in between posting. I keep a personal count on my phone of approaches and failed attempts. The latter being girls I wanted to approach but didn't. That number is very slowly starting to come down...but still significant so gotta keep pushing.

I noticed about myself that I was only approaching whenever I felt comfortable: girl is by herself, or fewer people within earshot, etc. But this means I'm not pushing myself enough, and I know it. I'm now actively working on approaching even when the environment makes me nervous. This, I think, is the only way to truly start chipping-away at the anxiety and building true confidence.

While out on the weekend, I befriended another gamer in the club. A male-model-looking dude; tall, muscular, the whole package. Anyone - and that includes me - who thinks that good-looking guys automatically have it somehow easier should've seen the 24 times this guy got turned down by girls (both young and old, hot and ugly, fat and skinny, etc.) But he was one persistent dude, never once got angry (the 2nd part is important). Before I left, I saw him make-out and step outside to smoke with one of the hotter chicks in the venue that night.

Funny story: I was going to a coffee shop and I noticed a really cute girl walk past me. Anxiety got the best of me and I didn't open her. Later on at the coffee shop, I noticed her walking outside so I decide, fuck it, now or never and opened her. She was stand-offish but did say I remember you... I didn't make anything of it at the time, but walking back I thought wtf? where does she remember me from? what does that mean?

Turns out, it was the vitamin section girl.

[Jack Sparrow]

I am on the Approach program also. Like you I am stuck on approaching single girls and when there aren't other people within ear shot.

I think you are doing great. If you can get one date a week, I think that's a pretty good accomplishment for anyone who doesn't do this "professionally".

I have a lot of work this week and feeling worn out. But reading your post inspired me to go out and do my approach assignments. Thanks.

- JS

[The Notorious PhD]

@Jack: for sure man. Do update that journal of yours when you do your approaches.

[The Notorious PhD]

Looks can be deceiving. I saw this ultra-attractive girl in the grocery store yesterday - you couldn't Photoshop proportions more perfect than hers. Just incredible. So after fluff-talking a bit, I asked what she enjoys doing in her spare time. Taking care of my kids, she said...one of whom just graduated from the local community college (!)

Astounded, I told her how biology-defyingly sexy she is. Made her day and she, mine. I've had a couple of these experiences...the last few times the girls turned out to be Freshmen in High School! That made me feel like a creep.

The Date

Boy, this is such an uphill battle - nary a step in the whole process that comes naturally to me. Astonishing, if you think about it, that one requires so much instruction to fulfill what is otherwise a biological imperative. Anyhow:

The date went okay. I didn't physically escalate at all. I know it's because I have massive sexual anxiety. I feel ashamed of touching the girl unless there are very obvious signals that she's interested. I always think I will creep her out, or make things awkward. Were I to pull a girl home even, I'd be too nervous to perform (but we'll deal with that problem/miracle when it happens).

Conversation flowed very smoothly, though we didn't have an amazing emotional connection. She's one of those yoga/energy-medicine type girls, and I told her how much of an empiricist I am. I was genuinely fascinated by how different our approach to the world is. Being a hardcore science-nerd and having been around them all my life, I'm really curious what it'd be like to be with someone like that.

I need to work on being more smooth about delving into deeper topics. She remarked how I went too deep too quickly, not sure if that was a problem though. I did think she didn't open-up about emotional stuff much.

I really regret not pushing my comfort zone and escalating physically. I will try to slow-boil, rather than flash-bang, the connection process.

The good part is that now I've been on three dates with pure strangers so my mind is starting to accept this more. Also, I found this llast girl quite sexy (the first one was significantly older and we didn't really feel any chemistry; the second one was a devout Christian, and again no chemistry, I pushed for the close simply for experience). This last chick was of the age and temperament I'm trying to target.

Questions
1. Is there a step-wise process to physical escalation or should I just wing it?

Finally, public service announcement: all three of these girls told me they thought it was fucking ballsy as hell approaching them as I did. So all of us who are doing this, know that you are The Boss for even trying.

[Creatine Dreams]

I do not have a ton of experience, but I have successfully escalated on a lot of the dates I have gone on. Here are my thoughts and anyone who does not agree with what I am saying should feel free to voice their disagreement.

1. She went on a date with you. That means she is open to having sex with you if you play your cards right. Maybe not on the first date, but at some point. Always keep that thought in your mind.

2. Smile like you mean it. Have fun talking to her and look into her eyes when you talk. Not all the time, but make it a point to make strong eye contact when you talk to her. If she is giving off good vibes, you will likely be able to kiss her. Take some responsibility for facilitating those good vibes.

3. A simple touch on the shoulder or hand when you say something to her gets the ball rolling. Also, the proximity of where you sit with her. That is why it is often good to sit at the bar with a girl.

4. Alcohol. Don't get drunk, but get a solid buzz going. You want to be in state where you are relaxed, but coherent.

5. Once the good vibes are strong and you find each other looking into each other's eyes alot, you can go for the kiss. You might get rejected but who cares? Most of the time a kiss just happens. You stop talking for a second and just go for it.

6. After you kiss her, it usually gets easier. Just play it cool and go with the flow.

Also, are you gonna go out with this girl again? I think you should.

---

Also, and anyone can feel free to correct me, but I think fun comes before emotional connection, right?

Dates are supposed to be fun, and if you can have fun together, that makes the entire process go much smoother.

[The Notorious PhD]

@Creatine - thanks for your pointers. Number 1 makes a lot of sense actually and I should keep that in mind.

I will ping her one more time to see if she comes out again. I can't really gauge her interest level so that should give me a clearer answer.

Just did 5 approaches in the last hour. All rejections, so it doesn't feel all that great, but I'm getting used to it now. It's still not as effortless as I'd like it.

The last one was this Colombian chick...oofah delectable!

[Creatine Dreams]

No problems, man. As I said, I have not been on a ton of dates, but the ones I have been on have usually been pretty good.

I definitely do not approach enough so props to you for making that effort. In fact, the last girl I dated actually asked me out. If that happens, you definitely know that she is interested!

Either way, keep up the good work man!

[The Notorious PhD]

Is it possible to develop a social circle through cold approach?

The last couple girls I talked to had boyfriends but we had a good vibe going. I didn't push for the number because, at the time, I didn't see the point.

But now I'm thinking girls have girlfriends and it might be something to try. The only question is, how do I push for a non-flakey number? Do I just say, hey I know you have a bf, but I think we're getting along so it would be fun to hang-out socially... etc.


Then, I'm thinking, the way it would go down is: number, harmless coffee/lunch day2, then I invite them to a party I'm throwing, they reciprocate. Is this right?

[The Notorious PhD]

Nothing to report, except that apparently all women have boyfriends. Every single one I've spoken to.

Frustrated. I feel like tossing a fucking grand piano off a rooftop, and watching it disintegrate.

[SeXyBaCk]

Maybe give squash ("racquetball") a try instead? Pianos are expensive.

Some girls really do have boyfriends, it happens, some women are wives too. Others say it to get rid of unwanted attention and some just always say that as an automated defence mechanism.

Without really knowing what you're doing I suspect you might be coming onto them too strong, which is triggering them defence.

I believe (this was later denied) my last 3 more serious relationships all claimed to have boyfriends when I met them, and only one really did (sorry mate, my bad). What I usually say is "great, I don't want to be the one having to wine & dine you" if it comes up again at a later stage (when clearly you're getting on well with each other) you can say "Good, I'm just looking for a wicked affair", if the lady of interest says no, I really have a boyfriend and love him ... back off, say he's a lucky guy and stop flirting.

[The Notorious PhD]

Thanks sexy. I really gave it to the punching bag yesterday - so much pent-up steam, James Watts would've been proud.

With the girls who told you they have boyfriends, did you get a little Pinocchio from them?

A priori, I have no reason to believe these girls are lying. I think they genuinely have boyfriends. And -- strangely perhaps -- that is precisely what pisses me off. It's like I'm trying to get in shape, but the gym is always closed.

For the ones who do say it as a defense mechanism, I've always believed in moving on, even if the conversation was good. I'd rather bust ass presenting the truest expression of my identity and let the chips (chicks?) fall where they may. Is this not right? Should I instead push for the number if the convo ended-up being good?

Another thing I'm gonna start doing is asking the boyfriended girls about the technical aspects of my approach/conversation/tonality/body-language. Fuck it, if they don't wanna go out with me, let's put 'em to work

Let's get back to it.

[Drewid]

I'm hitting a similar wall.

A friend of mine suggested congratulating them and asking them when they're going to get engaged.

Perhaps a little too PUA? But I like that it pushes them to reveal the real depth of the relationship.

[I_Dare]

There are guys here that are way more experienced at approaching than me... but I noticed some patterns in your experiences. You're so caught up in getting results in this area that you sometimes bullshit yourself that girls are interested... like that vitamin girl.

Another common pattern is that you'd settle for anyone that gives you some attention. You don't project yourself as a guy with options. You don't make girls feel special...you're rushing and it shows desperation.

Stop thinking in terms of game and be genuine.

Are you truly interested in these people(girls) or you're just doing the program? Approaching women that are clearly busy without having a genuine interest in them IS INDEED WEIRD. Normal people don't do that.

No, building connection is never about chit chat / small talk. Small talk is not sexy.

You're too eager to number close. You have the time to get to know each other a bit with the girl but you instead go directly for the close... probably showing that you're just collecting numbers or that you feel lucky that a girl like her even talked to you. Stop seeing numbers as results. Many girls give their numbers to get rid of guys.
Getting her number is a logistical step because you want to keep contact because you have some kind of a connection. The PUA term "number-close" is bullshit... and misleading.

Alan Roger Curie does this very direct "Hey. Friday at my place?" thing. But he's very sexual, confident and knows what he's doing. He's connecting on a sexual level...

You're more like "Hey you're cute, can I have your number?"

---------------------------------------

Your comments scream NEEDINESS. ("Somebody PLEASE say yes already!") I believe that you're taking the wrong approach. You're too focused on technical stuff and you project neediness. You're too attached to the outcome because you're so desperate to figure it out...like most guys doing this.

STOP CALLING PEOPLE SETS! They're called GROUPS OF PEOPLE. You're not on a PUA forum where people are treated like "sets to be gamed".

You're also REALLY clingy.

Fixing you inner game will help you a lot with your approach anxiety and most of your other stuff. You'll also have a WAY better vibe... less NEED, start being selective...and a lot of other stuff. The most important aspect is that you'll feel more valuable, thus less attached because you'll know many girls would want a guy like you.

There are better ways to start than desensitize yourself step by step if your initial anxiety level is pretty high. Women don't like guys that are scared of them... it's not manly. You should think that they would be lucky to meet you. Developing that mindset authentically is done by working on yourself...which you're already doing AT SOME LEVEL.

You gotta know what you want ! What do you want when you approach a woman? You probably want to get to know her to see if you guys are compatible...then something sexual.

This seduction thing is not about finding the right linear method of getting women... I sense a PUA-ish mindset in you. I've struggled with that shit enough... Women could sense my neediness and reject me.

I had a buddy that was doing Zan's Ars Amorata... the guy approached 1000+ women by following Zan's advice but lacking inner game and understanding of himself, women, sex. Know how many times he got rejected? EVERY SINGLE TIME. That program left him traumatized...0/1000 is a humiliating success rate.

I didn't wrote this to discourage you. Taking action is good. But by developing a high self esteem you'll find yourself asking WAY LESS technical questions like "what should I do in X situation?".

"What do you bring to the table? Would you date YOU?" Hypnotica.

I found myself feeling way better about myself after reading books like Sex God Method or Revolutionary Sex, working out, going to swim and going out and having fun with hot female friends that enjoyed my company a lot. I felt like I had a lot to offer to any girl that meets me. Then I opened a conversation in a pub with this totally hot milf and we had a great conversation... she thought I was a really cool young guy and looked intrigued...so I lost most of my anxiety. I practically talk to people in general like they're old friends, knowing I don't need their approval (because I'm a valuable person)...this makes me feel very comfortable.

REMEMBER: Most of your anxiety comes not from a lack of experience, but from a belief that that person has more value than you and you have to gain her approval. "OMG look at that hot chick, I hope she says HI back". As opposed to thinking what would be the perfect thing to say to girls, just know what you want and speak your mind in a very natural emphatic way. Also stop being so fucking needy

----------------------------

I apologize for my harsh comments ... I just have bad memories connected to the times when I was TRYING to be/seem attractive as opposed to genuinely having my shit together. I still have some stuff that bothers me about myself....but they're not insecurities like "I'm not good enough because X"...they're just barriers.... something in the lines of "My kid-face will prevent her from finding out what an incredible guy I am..."

We all have stuff to learn and I don't consider myself good at this cause my number of success stories is very limited... but I think my observations are pretty objective.

I hope they help,
I.D.

PS: More experienced guys can probably analyze specific situations that you posted about. I just gave you my general impression about what I've read. If you think I'm not right about certain things about you, it's OK. I can definitely be wrong about certain stuff.

[The Notorious PhD]

@ Drewid - I think if the girl talks about boyfriends, then she's just not interested. I'm inclined to move on.

Sexyback does have a point, though, that it may just be a knee-jerk defensive reaction. I'm fairly laid-back in my approaches (I think anyway) so I'd be surprised if I'm still putting them on the defensive, which is why I'm curious to hear about Sexyback's experience.

@Sexy - Could you elaborate where you met these girls and why did they initially claim to have boyfriends?

[The Notorious PhD]

Investigations

Talked to around 15 girls today. 10 said they had boyfriends. A couple were married. Only three were available. Got one number.

I decided to push a little on this boyfriend thing because it's been bothering me. Obviously the married girls were married coz I saw the ring (too late). In 6 of the 10 cases, the bfs actually just came up and we had a chat. In 4 cases I didn't see the boyfriends, but I pushed them a bit on it, and most seemed legit (when asked, they shared about how they met, etc.) In only 1 case was I unsure whether the girl was going steady or not.

Sucks that the distribution is so skewed.