Forum Activity

[Mark]

Tim: I agree... I feel like for the past 2-3 years I've been slowly figuring out what the big vision is. Now it's time to really just go for it.

And thanks.

[Schmechti]

Another idea could be to make an ebook about your best blog articles, and sort them by year and category. Then sell it for like $10 including regular updates. I would like to have all articles combined in a handy way to have fast access to it.

[Chaos]

Schmechti Wrote:Another idea could be to make an ebook about your best blog articles, and sort them by year and category. Then sell it for like $10 including regular updates. I would like to have all articles combined in a handy way to have fast access to it.

Wouldn't work, I would like that too, but people don't pay for what they can easily get for free, and anyway Models is very similar to that... not completely but basically all the old articles I feel are covered mostly in Models.

[Mark]

Ultimately what I'd like to do is every year or two, take the best handful of articles I've done, and incorporate them into a full book. That's kind of what I did with Models (about 25% of is adapted blog articles) and I'd like to do that this year with a travel/life experiences book.

[Leo]

Mark Wrote:Iyet another case of me prioritizing "what works" over "what sells."

PLease, never change this, never stop being honest. That's the main reason I'm still following your advice after so many years. At least I appreciate it. Sure, a lot of guys would like to buy products that offer the "solution" to never being rejected, date girls 20 years younger, date models, etc. But we know that's not true or in the best case very hard to achieve.

[IdEngager]

I don't know if you are a sports fan or not, but I feel like Bill Simmon's Grantland site would be a good model to follow. He's gone from being the sole writer on his Page 2 column to now having a revolving staff of writers producing content. Some of them were already known for other work (Klosterman), some of them are well-known bloggers (Carles from HRO, Molly Lambert, Chris Brown and Sebastian Prutti of SmartFootball and NBAPlaybook), and some are primarily known from Grantland. But they do a good job of producing a ton of interesting and varied content on a daily basis (even if I could do without the dissertations on reality TV), and quality of writing is definitely a level or two above what you seen on ESPN.com or similar sites. Granted, Grantland has ESPN money behind it, and you have just you, but I think it'd be a valid example to follow.

Really as far as the main site goes, content is king. I don't care who writes it or how much they get paid for it, as long as you deliver something original and interesting, I'll read it. I think since the switch to PostMasculine, the content's been a bit, well, bland. If you're serious about going from a PUA-centric audience to a more mainstream audience, you're going to have to stand out against a far larger group of writers. You can't just seem saner than the guy writing PUA blogs, you'll have to stand out against what I read on The Economist, Grantland, Hipster Runoff, any number of blogs and sites for various interests that I browse through daily. I hardly think I'm alone here, I'm intelligent and college educated, I work a job where I work roughly 4 hours of real work a day and have a ton of time to kill on the internet, but my attention span is limited. It's an Attention Economy these days (there's a couple good books on this subject). You're a talented writer but there's not really enough good content to justify checking the frontpage more than once a week or so. I don't want to tell you (or the other writers) how to write, but try some articles where you really go gonzo and really inject your personal voice into it. It's alright to be sorta general when you're dishing dating advice, but it doesn't really work as well with some of these other articles.

Like for example, taking from some recent stories, there was one today for "Highs and Lows of an International Lifestyle". I feel this is something that should be deeply personal to you, but it comes off as a bit too essay-ish as it is written. I don't particularly have any interest in being a perma-traveler, but I'd be interested in hearing something interesting about it. When you're sick and run out of potable water in India at 10 PM, I want to feel what that's like, not hear about it. I know you have cell phone troubles in other countries (I know this personally from traveling to the Philippines), but I want to feel your confusion when this happens. Think Hunter S. Thompson, not self-help. Another one, the posture article, is nice enough but nothing I wouldn't see on the Yahoo frontpage or something like that.

Anyway, regarding the forum itself, I feel the one thing the PUA movement really had going for it is that it really encourages people to participate and track their progress online. Now it's arguable that you'd actually want to spend all that time online, but it does keep a forum active. I don't think it's any surprise that the most active and interesting thread right now is the No Porn thread, cause it actively requires participation. The rest of the time, what is there to post about? The articles already have a comment section, and it's not like I'd want to start a thread for every personal question I have that could possibly be answered here.

[zkelvin]

Mark Wrote:I do think the pick up guys are a little more hardcore about being active. I think a lot of the new traffic is very much random people just interested in reading some articles. I've never been good at getting my name out there, and I plan on hiring someone this year to help me with that.

Also, I'm going to be running a new survey next week to cover some of this stuff... I've been thinking about it a lot the past couple weeks and is part of the reason I started this thread. The approach product didn't sell as well as I had hoped, and I'm starting to think that perhaps I'm still kind of selling myself to the old pick up crowd that used to read me, rather than the new crowd that reads me.

I feel like the site is really at a crossroads and could become many things right now. Once I get these other products out, I need to sit down and really figure out and create a brand that people can identify with and then push the site as a brand or an identity... not just interesting articles, or some good advice here and there.

Ironic as it is, I could probably take a few pointers from RSD on creating more loyalty and enthusiasm for my brand.

Here's the thing: you're pulling yourself in different directions-- two different directions which may very likely be incompatible (or at best, have a very limited market). On the one hand, it seems like most of the active forum readers are most interested in the getting laid and pickup side of things. On the other hand, you're trying to de-emphasize the pickup aspect, and instead emphasize more general aspects of masculinity.

But the thing is, these two groups have very limited overlap, making for an awkward market. Most pickup community guys are convinced that what ultimately matters most is their "game", and so they hyperfocus on that and hardly care about fashion, fitness, lifestyle, well-being, etc. Or at best, they care about it mainly as a useful periphery to getting laid. The rest (and majority) are "normal" guys-- those who are interested in improving their peripheries and lifestyle in general-- often find discussion of cold approaching, same night lays, and "skill with women" to be unclassy or creepy.

In my opinion, you're the best in the industry at a kind of "holistic health" cold-approach pickup: meeting women in a way that is simultaneously fun, respectful, rewarding, emotionally healthy, and also effective. And I consider this (along with your excellent writing ability) to be your best asset. But it's a really hard sell to most guys who have only done a few happenstance cold approaches in their life, and who prefer to work on their peripheries (fashion, fitness, lifestyle, etc.) and just passively meet women.

I mean, look at this shit:
http://artofmanliness.com/2009/06/08/30-...on-a-date/
http://community.artofmanliness.com/foru...meet-girls
http://artofmanliness.com/2011/03/27/whe...eet-women/
http://www.primermagazine.com/2010/spend...date-getup
http://www.primermagazine.com/2011/love/...e-in-a-bar
http://www.kinowear.com/blog/how-to-buil...confidence
http://www.kinowear.com/blog/vocal-projection
http://www.kinowear.com/blog/why-passion...attractive
http://www.justaguything.com/datingsex/h...tive-guide

These are your current competitors before you reach the level that you can compete with AskMen. They very rarely give advice about women, but when they do, it's always incredibly vague, and always about normal, society-approved relationships (never about casual sex or pickup).

My guess is that most guys follow the same path I did. First, they're kind of passive with women. Second, they get fed up with not getting laid and partake in the pickup lifestyle, spending an inordinate amount of time trying to bang chicks to make up for lost time. Third, they realize that most of the pickup advice available is counterproductive and that this lifestyle is unhealthy, so they find "pickup detox": Mark's stuff, or in my case, also http://www.beyondroutines.com/

And I think this third group is where you get your most dedicated readers. Your approach to meeting women is too aggressive for the first group, and two passive for the second. It seems like you're trying to capture the first group at the expense of neglecting the third group and completely forsaking the second group. Personally, I consider this somewhat disappointing because that third group is the one you can benefit most (much more than just another general interest article on how to fix your posture), even if it's a smaller group. I also know that it was largely your articles that saved me from a lot of the unhealthy aspects of pickup, but any guys who are just now finding that they need "pickup detox" wouldn't realize that your site was ever about that.

So, I guess the point I'm making is that most audiences will find either the pickup articles to be offputting or the other topics to be distracting, and you might want to reconsider how much and how quickly you're prepared to dilute your best asset for the sake of broadening your audience.

[zkelvin]

Mark Wrote:You absolutely nailed it here. And I'm surprised I didn't think of it earlier. But I kind of freaked out last week because the Approach Program sold about 1/2 as much as I expected to. But in the survey I just put up, for every person who responded "I already signed up," over two people responded "I plan on signing up, but am not ready yet." It occurred to me that the way the program is structured -- forcing people to be so accountable -- actually causes people to DELAY signing up. Sigh... yet another case of me prioritizing "what works" over "what sells."

Suggestion to resolve this problem: Give people an option to sign-up and see the first lesson (or two or three or whatever) without having the weekly payments start. Then, they can understand better what kind of place they'll need to be in their life before they actually start the program. Then once they complete the first lesson, they can see the next few, and the weekly payments immediately start, forcing them to be accountable.

For me personally, I'm not in a place in my life where spending an hour or so per day approaching really makes sense.

[Jon]

Mark Wrote:You absolutely nailed it here. And I'm surprised I didn't think of it earlier. But I kind of freaked out last week because the Approach Program sold about 1/2 as much as I expected to. But in the survey I just put up, for every person who responded "I already signed up," over two people responded "I plan on signing up, but am not ready yet." It occurred to me that the way the program is structured -- forcing people to be so accountable -- actually causes people to DELAY signing up. Sigh... yet another case of me prioritizing "what works" over "what sells."

I hate to say it, but a huge part of the revenue of any self-improvement business is people who buy things and then never use them. Your program is structured to penalize that, which is good from a pedagogical standpoint but not good from a marketing standpoint. Maybe you need to use a carrot instead of a stick, OR be more blatant that you are doing this to incentivise people.

[playmaker001]

There hasn't been as much forum activity because I haven't started any awwweeessssooommmeeee threads in a while. On my journey to 100 lays, I'm about to be 1/5 of the way through, and it hasn't even been a full year. I'm excited to talk to you guys about what I've learned so far. I'm also signed up for Mark's Approach Women program because even though I've improved a great amount with women, I still get anxiety in a number of situations. I think deep down inside, I still don't believe I deserve some of the hottest girls in the school. I'll take you guys along as I try to conquer my fears once and for all. I've been working out hard because i lost a lot of muscle also. Maybe that will help boost my confidence as well. But, I'm excited to tell you guys stories about all the cute girls, butterfaces, and slamhogs I've hooked up with.

PS. Brian was annoying as hell and worshiped his "natural" black roommate. I wouldn't mind having him back though, so I can shit on him intellectually..

[Mark]

IdEngager Wrote:I don't know if you are a sports fan or not, but I feel like Bill Simmon's Grantland site would be a good model to follow. He's gone from being the sole writer on his Page 2 column to now having a revolving staff of writers producing content. Some of them were already known for other work (Klosterman), some of them are well-known bloggers (Carles from HRO, Molly Lambert, Chris Brown and Sebastian Prutti of SmartFootball and NBAPlaybook), and some are primarily known from Grantland. But they do a good job of producing a ton of interesting and varied content on a daily basis (even if I could do without the dissertations on reality TV), and quality of writing is definitely a level or two above what you seen on ESPN.com or similar sites. Granted, Grantland has ESPN money behind it, and you have just you, but I think it'd be a valid example to follow.

Really as far as the main site goes, content is king. I don't care who writes it or how much they get paid for it, as long as you deliver something original and interesting, I'll read it. I think since the switch to PostMasculine, the content's been a bit, well, bland. If you're serious about going from a PUA-centric audience to a more mainstream audience, you're going to have to stand out against a far larger group of writers. You can't just seem saner than the guy writing PUA blogs, you'll have to stand out against what I read on The Economist, Grantland, Hipster Runoff, any number of blogs and sites for various interests that I browse through daily. I hardly think I'm alone here, I'm intelligent and college educated, I work a job where I work roughly 4 hours of real work a day and have a ton of time to kill on the internet, but my attention span is limited. It's an Attention Economy these days (there's a couple good books on this subject). You're a talented writer but there's not really enough good content to justify checking the frontpage more than once a week or so. I don't want to tell you (or the other writers) how to write, but try some articles where you really go gonzo and really inject your personal voice into it. It's alright to be sorta general when you're dishing dating advice, but it doesn't really work as well with some of these other articles.

Like for example, taking from some recent stories, there was one today for "Highs and Lows of an International Lifestyle". I feel this is something that should be deeply personal to you, but it comes off as a bit too essay-ish as it is written. I don't particularly have any interest in being a perma-traveler, but I'd be interested in hearing something interesting about it. When you're sick and run out of potable water in India at 10 PM, I want to feel what that's like, not hear about it. I know you have cell phone troubles in other countries (I know this personally from traveling to the Philippines), but I want to feel your confusion when this happens. Think Hunter S. Thompson, not self-help. Another one, the posture article, is nice enough but nothing I wouldn't see on the Yahoo frontpage or something like that.

Anyway, regarding the forum itself, I feel the one thing the PUA movement really had going for it is that it really encourages people to participate and track their progress online. Now it's arguable that you'd actually want to spend all that time online, but it does keep a forum active. I don't think it's any surprise that the most active and interesting thread right now is the No Porn thread, cause it actively requires participation. The rest of the time, what is there to post about? The articles already have a comment section, and it's not like I'd want to start a thread for every personal question I have that could possibly be answered here.

This is a great post. Thanks for the feedback. I do read Grantland. And it's funny you mention Bill Simmons... I've read him weekly since 2003 and I feel that he's actually had a not-insignificant influence on me... but the funny thing about Simmons is that from a purely literary point of view, he's not a good writer. In fact, in may ways he's a bad writer. But the one thing he does well -- communicate himself in an incredibly casual and friendly tone -- he does so well that it compensates for it... when you read him it's like you're sitting with your buddy watching a football game together and just chit-chatting about this player and that player.

You mention the international travel post... I don't think that's my best written piece by any means, but I do think it's more personal than average for me. And I don't think there's much self-help content in it at all... I would say the centerpiece for my "non self-help, writing at 100% capacity" ability is A Dust Over India. That's a piece I'll stand behind as far as my writing ability is concerned. I suppose a minor problem of where my site is, is that it's not a literary site. It IS a self help site. And so I feel that I can't stray from that self-help tone or purpose too far or for too long...

I'd be curious to hear what you think more on this topic. Because ironically, "A Dust Over India" has one of the highest "time on page" metrics of any article I've ever posted. I do agree with you, that although I like the content produced by the new writers, it's not good enough... and in generally I'd like the content on this site to take it to the next level... the level of Grantland or Deadspin or something... but the resources aren't quite there yet... I think I'm capable of it, but I'd need to dedicate more time to writing (which I'd love to do, but can't right now)... and then I'd have to get some serious writers and compensate them well as well... which I can't quite do yet.

[IdEngager]

I actually quite enjoyed the Dust Over India article. I could relate to it on a personal level, having traveled to the Philippines and Mexico and a couple other 3rd world countries, but even if I hadn't, I thought it did a great job of taking the reader there. It was a long article but a breeze to read. I don't think the International Travel article was bad by any means, it just could have been a bit better. The concept was strong. No writer (or anyone who pursues an artistic endeavor, really) bats 100%, and it's all subjective anyway.

I actually pretty much agree with you on Simmons, BTW. I actually don't think he's that great of a writer or analyst really, his scope can be limited at times. He's pretty much an interesting message board poster who happened to be in the right place at the right time to grab a wider spotlight. The smartest thing he's done ever since moving to Grantland is pretty much getting the hell out the way for the people who are better analysts and better essayists and pretty much sticking to what he does best, mailbags and lists about the NBA.

I've got more to say on this topic but it's 1 AM and my brain is dead! Will keep tabs on this thread.

[Chaos]

Mark, another suggestion for the front page. I miss the "best articles section" on the front page. PracticalPickup had one and I remember distinctly that when I hit the page for the first time, quickly directed me to the most valued content, which in turn was what really convinced me to stay and read every other article.

I don't know what the bounce rate was for practical pickup, but I'm assuming it has grown for PostMasculine and I think the "Best of practical pickup" section would help improve that part. If you review the visitors path in practical pickup and compare them to the ones in PostMasculine you should be able to really tell if the section was helping or not, but in my opinion, it's something completely required in almost every website. A random visitor might not be too attracted to what's currently on the front page, or may not get an accurate idea of what's the site about, but having the most readed/valued articles linked in the webpage will help him discover the most relevant or representative pieces of the site.

[Mark]

Chaos Wrote:Mark, another suggestion for the front page. I miss the "best articles section" on the front page. PracticalPickup had one and I remember distinctly that when I hit the page for the first time, quickly directed me to the most valued content, which in turn was what really convinced me to stay and read every other article.

I don't know what the bounce rate was for practical pickup, but I'm assuming it has grown for PostMasculine and I think the "Best of practical pickup" section would help improve that part. If you review the visitors path in practical pickup and compare them to the ones in PostMasculine you should be able to really tell if the section was helping or not, but in my opinion, it's something completely required in almost every website. A random visitor might not be too attracted to what's currently on the front page, or may not get an accurate idea of what's the site about, but having the most readed/valued articles linked in the webpage will help him discover the most relevant or representative pieces of the site.

Yep... this is a pretty consistent point being made in the survey as well. I think it's clear that the site's design and navigation both need an upgrade.

[Mark]

zkelvin Wrote:So, I guess the point I'm making is that most audiences will find either the pickup articles to be offputting or the other topics to be distracting, and you might want to reconsider how much and how quickly you're prepared to dilute your best asset for the sake of broadening your audience.

I agree that broadening the content will dilute the brand and dilute the pick up content... in fact, that's kind of the issue I'm running into right here. But I disagree that pick up people find the other articles distracting.

Pick up is self help in disguise and marketing done by myself and others really have shown that. There are people in this industry who regularly sell diet and business products to their seduction lists and make a lot of money from it. Guys who get into pick up are almost universally interested in self-improvement in other areas of their lives as well.

You make some good points about the level in which guys are at when they're exposed to me. For a long time, I seemed to only net "advanced" readers... guys who had already been through the newbie PUA phases and were looking for something more practical and authentic. I'm trying to get away from that a bit as well and hit the newbie market a little better... but we'll see.

[Traindom]

You've managed to hit me (I'm really a newbie), like a year ago. But you probably mean through more direct means. The way you hit me seemed accidental (I found your video of "Casino Royale" on youtube). The funny thing is I didn't go to your website then and there. I waited a couple of months and got the curiosity and nerve to look at it. And then I was present for the first and then second transformations. It was pretty interesting to see the direction change so many times. I think the change from pp to pm gave you some solid foundation though.

I don't mean to drive a point too far but I agree with Chaos. A "best of" section would be amazing here, not only for us but for new readers. I almost always read those sections to get a taste for the best the site can offer without having to surf through the entire website. I did it for entropypua, although it was more like "popular now" and "most commented" sections.

[zkelvin]

Mark Wrote:You make some good points about the level in which guys are at when they're exposed to me. For a long time, I seemed to only net "advanced" readers... guys who had already been through the newbie PUA phases and were looking for something more practical and authentic. I'm trying to get away from that a bit as well and hit the newbie market a little better... but we'll see.

I think most newbies come to pickup after something fairly acute has happened to them-- either a rough breakup, or they've gone a record amount of time without getting laid since graduating college, etc. And I think their typical mindset is that some extreme action needs to be taken in response-- routines memorized, 100 girls banged, thousands of nights out approaching, etc. This is also probably why skeezy wall-of-text advertising works-- because it appeals to this mindset. I think the best way to sell your product to this mindset is to first acknowledge the way they feel (extreme circumstances require extreme measures) and then point out the ways in which that can be counterproductive and even ineffective. You probably have enough anecdotes from guys you've coached to make this argument.

At the very least, I wish I had followed the path of genuineness and vulnerability first instead of trodding down the path of routines, perfected lines, and overanalysis for two years.

[Jon]

Mark Wrote:You make some good points about the level in which guys are at when they're exposed to me. For a long time, I seemed to only net "advanced" readers... guys who had already been through the newbie PUA phases and were looking for something more practical and authentic. I'm trying to get away from that a bit as well and hit the newbie market a little better... but we'll see.

This is the case with me. I remember being linked to your site in two ways, not sure which came first but they were right around the same time.

1) I saw Sinn plug you as one of the only guys worth taking a bootcamp from.

2) Future linked to your article on DFW.

[Mark]

zkelvin Wrote:I think most newbies come to pickup after something fairly acute has happened to them-- either a rough breakup, or they've gone a record amount of time without getting laid since graduating college, etc. And I think their typical mindset is that some extreme action needs to be taken in response-- routines memorized, 100 girls banged, thousands of nights out approaching, etc. This is also probably why skeezy wall-of-text advertising works-- because it appeals to this mindset. I think the best way to sell your product to this mindset is to first acknowledge the way they feel (extreme circumstances require extreme measures) and then point out the ways in which that can be counterproductive and even ineffective. You probably have enough anecdotes from guys you've coached to make this argument.

Yeah... I'm actually not too concerned about the marketing stuff in general, as strange as that sounds. I *know* what needs to be done... but one problem is that the larger brand is not defined yet (needs to happen first), and the other problem is that it's just a matter of spending a shitload of time on the marketing -- something which I don't particularly enjoy. Right now, the money is decent enough that I don't have to worry about it yet. I'd rather get the brand and vision of the site set in stone first, establish what content is coming and where it's coming from, and then worry about scaling up with marketing.

Quote:At the very least, I wish I had followed the path of genuineness and vulnerability first instead of trodding down the path of routines, perfected lines, and overanalysis for two years.

No kidding, me too.

[FirstAidKit]

For me I guess your pick up stuff is really new and refreshing - not really like anything else out there and very good, whereas your other articles.... well, there's a lot of other sites covering travel, fashion, sport, and they are covering them better. They are interesting, sure, but they aren't out of the ordinary and they aren't breaking any new ground.

[Mark]

I want to thank everyone for their feedback. I read everything on this thread, and writing out a bunch of my replies helped me to get my thoughts out as well. This thread, combined with the survey results, combined with some conversations I've had with some friends, have all really helped me crystallize what needs to be done over the next 3-6 months and where the site is headed. Will be making a post about it tomorrow.

[Schmechti]

Someone has already mentioned it in one of your blog articles, but I was wondering if you will post an article on body language sometimes soon. Your own perspective on tonality, eye contact, etc. I know you have mentioned the importance of tonality and eye contact in your book 'Models', but I would like to hear more in detail since it makes up most of our communication. I read books like "The Definitve Book of Body Language" and "Body Language of Love", but they are very general.

[Mark]

There's a section in Models on body language. General principle of eye contact: never break it first.

My belief has always been that if a guy gets all of the other important things together (confidence, neediness, gets exercise, relaxes), then the body language stuff largely takes care of itself.

[Edmond Dantès]

It's good to see that you'll write some articles on personality development (self-esteem, self-confidence, etc) as I actually wanted to write a few big posts on them. They are needed as nearly 50-60% of the threads in the dating section are correlated to these topics. But if you'll write them, I can use my time for other stuff. Would just have done it, if you wouldn't write them very soon.

Some more thoughts about the website (Can't stop thinking about it):

-I've got the impression that you try to put out the best content about the sections women & dating, mind, lifestyle, fashion, health& fitness, etc , but really ask yourself where you see your team's and yourself's ability to put out the best content in comparison to other websites. Their content is literally just a click away and I'm afraid the quality of your articles could suffer from it and decrease the amout of people who read it. I really liked a comment of one of us readers, who said you should focus on the areas where you can contribute unique, well-written content. I see your strengths in the areas of women, lifestyle, business and personality development. Another solutions would be to engage people who are really experts in their field. (Once again check your competition and compare yourself/your writers to them)

-Introduce your writers better. I was a bit disappointed with the little "About xyz" you've written for them. It was too short and doesn't help us readers to connect with them. I think the rest will agree with me when I say we stayed loyal to PP and postmasculine, because of you and not just because of the content. We want stuff from people we can identify with, with their identities, with their journey and with their ups and downs. We want personal stuff or at least a rough idea who sits behind the pc and writes the content we're reading. Or would you want to read articles from people you don't know or can't judge their knowledge about the topic their writing about?

- So much content is out there, it's really an information overload. Some readers and forum members are engaged in several forums and read multiple sites. I bookmarked my personal top site about fitness, fashion & style and dating. All of them produce high quality, well-rounded articles. But it isn't about content, it's about context. You can place yourself in an empty niche by putting stuff together in the right order and give the reader a step-to-step action - guideline for his problem/area he wants to improve. You know, a section, where you can click on your problem/are you want to improve and get a detailled guideline and articles you should read and implement their advice. This would lead to higher traffic as people click more often on your site to check their progress status and look up the next step and it would be something that fits into the philosophy of postmasculine to take action and not just stay a keyboard-jockey and read articles.



-This leads me to the next note. What about an FAQ-section on your main-site (similiar to the idea of the best-article-section, I endorse the idea) to commonly asked question (the famous rsd-refugees, etc)

[Edmond Dantès]

@Schmechti: I noticed that my body language drastically improved as I raised my self-esteem. I see it the way that your body language is a representation of your internal state [how you feel yourself (today and in general), what your mindset is like, how much confidence and self-esteem you have]

I mean think of "naturals" . Do they have to think about the way they carry themselves? Do you really think a natural thinks "I have to look here in the eyes. I have to stand like this and do this that slowly" Nah, man. They don't or at least not conciously.

An interesting experiment I did with a friend of mine a few weeks ago really supported this thesis. I asked him to walk confident. And he walked. But not confident. He walked "I think this is the way you have to walk as a confident guy". It wasn't authentic and it was definitely not attractive. And women can see your fake behaviour/body language 20 times better than men and you can't fake it all day long.

That's why I think most body language advice/workshops are crap.

Hope that helped.