Focus on the content not the people - avoid Guru worship

[Jon]

I have noticed a trend where people are discussing coaches or companies in broad generalizations. I think this misses the point to an extent. creating a good product, coaching, and running a good forum are separate skills, and different coaches vary in their abilities. For instance, Mehow's books are, in my opinion, terrible. He uses an excessively over-formalized structure, goes into totally irrelevant details, and is so out of touch with what people in their 20s talk about that his lines are embarrassing. However, back when he had DJ Fuji as his head instructor, you could have done much worse than a Mehow bootcamp, since Fuji is quite well regarded as a coach.

On the flip side, Jeffy show is actually pretty good, but apparently the guy gets black out drunk on boot camps. Don't take a boot camp, but if you are interested, maybe think about buying the Jeffy show.

[IdEngager]

You mean I should stop work on my Mark Manson shrine so that I can channel all of his women talking karma? OK then.

[Tim]

I agree with you Jon, and I'd add a couple of things.

Firstly, it was something really powerful and obvious I read a couple of years back that made me change the way I look at how I review advice in any given area (dating or other). It might have been Mark or it might have been someone else, but either way they said that (and here they were referring to PUA), you should only read/take courses for improvement, and not as a pleasurable activity. And when reading reviews, to focus on the results that people claimed to have got from reading the ebook/taking the seminar/etc, and not how much they actually liked it. I remember I used to read reviews all the time that started like this: "I really enjoyed reading blah blah blahs book, in my opinion they have put forth the best model for blah blah blah, and it's really good at breaking down blah blah blah concept". Very occasionally would I read a review that was like this: "The most powerful thing I took from blah blah blah's book was that you if you have X problem like me you can blah blah blah. Now I do blah blah blah and I am hooking up with more girls as a result. If you also have issues with X problem, I recommend this book". Guys in the PUA community (especially including myself back when I was in it) read books too much for entertainment and not to target and deal with specific issues. If you want to know whether to buy or use a product, look for feedback from users that tells you whether it has helped them or not with what you are trying to deal with.

Secondly, I just mentioned this in another thread, but what are you trying to find from other PUA products out there? The thing about Mark and this site is that once you've read a few key articles (and probably Models too), in my opinion you should realize that there's no point using any community stuff to improve yourself. He covers nearly everything the community does, and with a far better explanation too. I know I might just sound like a huge fanboy here, but seriously, who else (in the community) is talking about things on the same level? He explains very clearly why routines, tactics, etc are all just a distraction from the bigger issues of managing anxiety, having high self-esteem, and being attractive rather than seeming it.

Once you've read that, how can you agree with it and then still use PUA stuff? Sure, if you disagree then it's fine, but otherwise in my mind there's a massive incongruence. I couldn't go take a Love Systems boot camp now, because I know that they'll be telling me stuff about how you should loosely go from attraction to qualification to comfort to seduction. Once you agree with Mark that seducing a woman usually doesn't follow a linear model, and certainly doesn't need to, why would I go back to these guys who are going to tell me it does?

I'm not saying ignore all other advice by the way. If you think that your interactions with women lack humour, definitely look at taking an improv or comedy course, or reading a couple of highly recommended books by comedians. Or if you feel that the vast majority of your issues come back to low self-esteem (as I do), then find a therapist and read 'The Six Pillars of Self-Esteem' (as I did/am).

But seriously, what can PUA offer you now? I've met most of the Love Systems guys, and I think that if they wanted to help me improve my sense of humour, or help me overcome approach anxiety, they could help me do those things. The problem is that it would come with a whole lot of bullshit reasoning behind it, or with over analysis of side issues that would simply distract me and make the process take much longer than it needs to. In my opinion the same is true for everyone in PUA, it's just how much the damage, effort, and time will vary. In the case of a few (RSD), I'm completely confident I'll end up worse than I started.

[Traindom]

I've definitely reached a point where I literally do not need anything from the PUA community as a whole. Everything I've ever wanted to hear or learn I have already assimilated. It's great that Mark decided to take his work into a new, broader definition because I feel that everything related to picking up women has been covered to some extent. Sure, there might be some new gimmicks here and there, but after you've read this blog or Models, you just don't need it as much. It's like you've shed all these trinkets and just have this emotional source to evoke and encourage deeper, more meaningful relationships with not just women, but men as well.

Of course there's still the anxiety and the calibration issues, but these are a matter of time, experience, and maybe some finite amount of knowledge. I appreciate the community for the great knowledge it has spawned in its course, but I feel it's reached its peak. It can't offer as much as it seemed to before simply because of its predetermined boundaries that need to be pushed, but in doing so would change the identity of the community itself. For us to learn more, we needed to define new boundaries. That's essentially what Mark did. He pushed the boundaries further to encompass the life of men as a whole in relation to the world around him, which, in my opinion, makes for deeper and more meaningful material.

[Brian]

While mark's book model did really well to cover which is basically the backbone of anything inner game pua related you can think of. I think some of mystery's book, especially his newish one which cover mainly his FR, is great in describing calibrating while infield.

As for rsd, almost all their materials are garbage. After you listen to them, you have to waste more time going out and figure out why they're wrong. Why going through the headache of that mental masturbation time waster when you can listen to us and realize it's shit and ignore it lol.

[Alvar]

Quote:Secondly, I just mentioned this in another thread, but what are you trying to find from other PUA products out there? The thing about Mark and this site is that once you've read a few key articles (and probably Models too), in my opinion you should realize that there's no point using any community stuff to improve yourself. He covers nearly everything the community does, and with a far better explanation too. I know I might just sound like a huge fanboy here, but seriously, who else (in the community) is talking about things on the same level? He explains very clearly why routines, tactics, etc are all just a distraction from the bigger issues of managing anxiety, having high self-esteem, and being attractive rather than seeming it.

Once you've read that, how can you agree with it and then still use PUA stuff? Sure, if you disagree then it's fine, but otherwise in my mind there's a massive incongruence. I couldn't go take a Love Systems boot camp now, because I know that they'll be telling me stuff about how you should loosely go from attraction to qualification to comfort to seduction. Once you agree with Mark that seducing a woman usually doesn't follow a linear model, and certainly doesn't need to, why would I go back to these guys who are going to tell me it does?

You are right.

But you are incorrect, also. Although this may be self evident for most of us, it is not for many other guys. Just think back of what it took you to get to this point. Or try going to any young and aspiring PUA and tell him that all he needs is get some self-esteem, do some inner work, take the higher road or the road less travelled and voila, he'll be must better off than laying some drunken fatties.

Routines and tactics are enticing because they "work", they permit the student to earn a sense of control, and to feel like he is reaching his goals and is getting somewhere. I've heard somewhere that one of the most important things in self improvement is fast success, that is if you don't see quick improvement you'll be discouraged and give up.
The problem with PUA style of game is that the more you need the more you need to internalize self defeating behaviours. I think was Sinn who wrote that "[any school of gaming] works if you are a normal socially adjusted guy". If you are that guy you don't need game, but surely will benefit you. If you need you'll need to revamp yourself and, in the process adopt and create a bunch of negative beliefs that may get you stuck for a while.

I wish that when reviewing gurus or gaming theories we would pay more attention to these trade-offs. If you know beforehand that Pualand will make it possible for you to date and lay a bunch of crazy/low self esteem girls but that will came at a price you may still want to go for that but you may be more receptive to changing gears, when it comes time to evolve.


I've felt this trade-off first hand in the last months. While I've never used routines I've been pretty brash with girls and was having sex with 2 or 3 girls a week during the summer. Nowadays I have a hard time connecting with many of these girls with low self esteem and have time getting the ones I connect with to sleep with me on the first night. I haven't had it in 6 weeks partly because of really bad luck, partly because I am wearing new cloths and learning to walk. Not that I regret it, It's actually been very rewarding. However, back when I was a newbie I would definitely not look at a 1,5 month dry-spell as an enriching and worthwhile experience.

[Tim]

Alvar Wrote:You are right.

But you are incorrect, also. Although this may be self evident for most of us, it is not for many other guys. Just think back of what it took you to get to this point. Or try going to any young and aspiring PUA and tell him that all he needs is get some self-esteem, do some inner work, take the higher road or the road less travelled and voila, he'll be must better off than laying some drunken fatties.

Routines and tactics are enticing because they "work", they permit the student to earn a sense of control, and to feel like he is reaching his goals and is getting somewhere. I've heard somewhere that one of the most important things in self improvement is fast success, that is if you don't see quick improvement you'll be discouraged and give up.

Great points, and I agree to some extent. That's why a large percentage of Mark's readers are disillusioned ex-community guys. Other community guys just aren't mature enough and ready to move on (which I understand, a lot of them have committed so much). Probably why it's sensible for this site to diversify away from just Pickup, because Mark needs to focus on creating a new market from guys who have never known about or shown interest in PUA, rather than trying to convert guys who are still stuck on the need for denial and avoidance that PUA provides.

Even though I invested a lot of time and money in PUA, I never got that far with it, and it always felt very incongruent, so it was much easier to make the transition at the same time that Mark's content did. I'm also still young, so I think I'm more open-minded, and it didn't feel like I was throwing away anything by giving up PUA. It must be a lot harder for guys who have spent so much time there and got some results from it, even if they no longer do. If you weren't good with women for most of your life, and felt like you never would be, it must be hard to give up something that finally told you that you could be. Mark doesn't actually say that, but he lays down the reality that you're going to have to work hard to get there, and that pain is inevitable. If you're not willing to hear that, I can't say I approve of it, but I understand it.

Anyway, my post was also strongly directed at more prominent forum posters like Brian, Jon, and Leo. I respect these guys and their experience, but I wonder why they still talk about PUA content, guys like Mystery, and so on. Obviously they've gotten on board with what Mark says to some extent, but they still mention PUA or seeing themselves as PUAs. Why, is my question?

Brian, you said that Mystery's book is great for helping you calibrate in-field. Isn't the point of calibration is that it's something you learn over time, with plenty of failure to show you the way? I don't see how a book can help you, because calibration is unique to each individual. For example I just posted a thread about whether I was being neurotic or reasonable in worrying about flakes. This is the kind of question a book can't answer because it doesn't understand my neuroses or situation. What might be overly sensitive for me might be a boundary issue for another guy. Even asking a question on this forum is of limited use to me. It's helpful because I can lay out my situation clearly, and the guys who respond might know my personality defects that will be relevant to the answer, but in the end I'm only really going to figure out this situation when I can look at the situation as objectively as possible and can honestly realize that 1) I'm being too needy by letting her flake or 2) I'm being too sensitive and she's canceled for legit reasons.

[IdEngager]

I've always found it a bit strange how someone could self-identify as a Pick Up Artist. If you are supposed to be so outcome independent, how are you supposed to tie so much of your identity to your ability to pick up women? If you could barely play an instrument, would you identify yourself as a musician? If you were an extra in one commercial, would you identify yourself as an actor? So if you are a PUA, shouldn't you be really good at women and thus be basing part of your self-worth on the whims of women? Is that not antithetical to what most PUA's teach?

Which also takes me to how a lot things are "community this" and "community that". If it is such a community, how is it supposed to help you when some real shit happens? Will the Mystery Method help me out if my dog dies? If I lose my job, can I go sarge on the weekend to feel better? At least if I'm a big fan of a football team, I can watch a game on the weekends to escape. Granted, I root for some bad football teams, this may in fact make me feel worse, but it is an escape. If I'm in a horrible car accident and need help paying the bills, will the community organize a fundraiser or benefit to help me out? Even the big pickup guru's are hesitant to attach their real names or real identities, am I supposed to send the check to some guy named Tyler Durden? It's not like most people are telling their sister, "Yeah, I'm practicing to be a pick up artist, and this dude named Mystery is coming over to help me move." Everyone is trying to out-alpha each other constantly and no one has time to be a normal ass dude.