Fashion and attraction, about Marks opinion

[sledgehammer]

Heya Mark. You seem to talk pretty much about having good fashion sense and looking your best. I see where you are coming from, its very "logical" and eh.. "normal".

However, have u ever thought about what Tyler said in blueprint? That the reason you get better responses when you are dressed well is cause u feel better and the girls can sense that?

He seems to say that dressing good is correleation, not causation.

Whats your opinion on this?

[Mark]

Feeling better is part of it, I guess. But that's like saying, "Skinny guys only get more girls because they feel better about themselves and have more energy." It's not wrong, it's just kind of a dumb argument. At the end of the day it doesn't really matter WHY it gets better results, just that it gets better results.

But I do disagree with him that fashion doesn't matter. This kind of falls under the whole "looks don't matter" thing, which is plainly bullshit. Looks do matter. Fashion is the largest component of looks for men. Therefore fashion matters. There is causation. Fashion and looks don't DETERMINE your results, but they absolutely, positively influence them to a significant degree. Yes, you can pick up hot girls while dressing like shit. But it's much easier if you're dressed well, so you might as well dress well.

Just the other night, the girl I SNL'd told me something like: "I love your jeans. Not enough guys wear tight jeans that fit them well. I couldn't stop staring at your ass." Another example is a leather jacket I had for a few years (until I lost it in Prague). It was amazing and I looked amazing in it. I probably had 30-40 women approach me over the course of two years for no other reason than I was wearing that jacket. It was like a magnet. I'd get complimented on it every single time I wore it out, sometimes by multiple women in the same night.

To me, the difference in the amount of stares I get is really obvious between when I'm just wearing a T-shirt (very few) and when I'm wearing a really nice shirt and nice shoes (a decent amount per night). I've given a few dozen guys fashion makeovers when coaching them over the years and they've seen immediate positive results too... and trust me, not all of those guys felt confident about their new clothes. But women sure as hell treated them better.

So yeah, Tyler's full of shit. It's more bullshit RSD ideology and marketing hype. Fashion is the quickest way to improve your results with the least amount of effort. And everyone can do it. So there's really no excuse not to.

Here's another example... and this is changing nothing but the size of the guy's suit. Look at it and tell me that girls wouldn't treat him differently:

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Anyone who looks at that picture and tells me that dressing well doesn't matter is either blind or an idiot.

[CHB2]

Well, since I have stepped up my fashion by buying better fitting clothes, getting a few blazers that fit well, etc. I have gotten a lot better results. Part of it is definitely been that I feel better in those clothes than I do if I am wearing poorly fitting jeans and an old t-shirt, but part of it is also that women react better to me when I am dressed well and look my best. I find that it matters a lot for the first impression - if I am well dressed, beard trimmed, good haircut etc. I am starting from a good point and it shows in how a girl looks at me.

[Tim]

This is the cynicist in me but ahem, here's my opinion:

First off, Tyler doesn't and couldn't dress well. Not by the definition of normal cultural standards. Which is a good start for thinking it's an area he doesn't know much about.

Secondly, the vast majority of guys he's selling to are quite socially unaware. Many of them don't 'get' fashion on a number of levels; why people like to dress well, what dressing well can look like, why it might be attractive to women, and most importantly; what looks good on them. The fact is that getting a better understanding of fashion and dressing well can be a slow and painful process if it's not something you have an interest in. And more importantly, it's not a centralized and linear learning process, which is what really gets to these guys. You can't look it up in a book and have all the answers, nor can you easily discern when you are dressing better than before unless your overall social and fashion awareness increases, which is what unfashionable people are lacking in the first place. So these guys would much rather believe that wearing something that simply makes them feel powerful and confident is enough. When the reality is that they're still not fashionable by normal standards.

As a result you end up with a lot of community guys wearing some really lame clothing. And I don't just mean peacocking. I mean like Ed Hardy (I remember the moment of horror when I realized a Love Systems instructor I idealized was wearing some EH shoes), overly ripped jeans, shirts with eagles, snakes, or weird mystical symbols all over them, and much more. Now if you're a guido from Jersey shore or you hang out in the not so picky parts of the LA night scene, you'll find a relatively decent sized niche that will like that, especially if you combine them with a whey protein addiction, overly tight shirts, and a strut that (for the majority of people) screams out overcompensation.

But it doesn't make you fashionable.

I think it's kind of ridiculous a question like this could possibly be asked. Brad Pitt, Johnny Depp, George Clooney, three of the most regular names on 'worlds hottest men' lists, also happen to appear on 'best dressed men' lists about as much. You're telling me that's a coincidence? Guys think 'oh, you could put those guys in anything and girls would still think they were hot'. Except you couldn't. If you want to be an A-list celebrity in Hollywood you have to dress like one, and not just to make your peers accept you, but because that's what fans want. That's how important fashion is.

[Mark]

You raise a good point Tim, most PUA coaches don't know how to dress well. I can't think of one off the top of my head who dresses particularly well. Just flashy shit with obnoxious designs on them.

[Schmechti]

Mark Wrote:Just the other night, the girl I SNL'd told me something like: "I love your jeans. Not enough guys wear tight jeans that fit them well. I couldn't stop staring at your ass." Another example is a leather jacket I had for a few years (until I lost it in Prague). It was amazing and I looked amazing in it. I probably had 30-40 women approach me over the course of two years for no other reason than I was wearing that jacket. It was like a magnet. I'd get complimented on it every single time I wore it out, sometimes by multiple women in the same night.

I've noticed that too. When I'm wearing ultra tight jeans that stress the shape of my legs, I get far more looks from women on the streets. Some women even look only at my legs when they pass me

[Chaos]

From the videos I've seen I like Neil Strauss dressing style.

[Halo Effect]

Schmechti Wrote:I've noticed that too. When I'm wearing ultra tight jeans that stress the shape of my legs, I get far more looks from women on the streets. Some women even look only at my legs when they pass me

Are you talking about skinny jeans here?

[Schmechti]

Halo Effect Wrote:Are you talking about skinny jeans here?

Yes. You don't see many men wearing skinny jeans. Women wear them like 10 times more. I also find women wearing skinny jeans far more attractive. So for me it is understandable that they also find men more attractive who wear skinny jeans.

I think Mark was also talking about skinny jeans.

[Halo Effect]

Brad P is all for skinny jeans. I've had them and wore them once or twice, but felt very uncomfortable. I did get looks, but who's to say they didn't just find it odd on my tall skinny frame?

[Schmechti]

Halo Effect Wrote:Brad P is all for skinny jeans. I've had them and wore them once or twice, but felt very uncomfortable. I did get looks, but who's to say they didn't just find it odd on my tall skinny frame?

You mean in terms of looking gay? Let's hear what Mark has to say about skinny jeans. I find myself far more attractive wearing them. However, like you said, some looks might be because they think you look odd with it.

[Chaos]

Well, don't know about Mark but if you read "The Guide to Wearing Jeans" on PostMasculine:

Quote:Slim jeans. Forget about them. They will make your legs look like a woman’s arms ready to break off. And that’s assuming you can even fit into them. And if they don’t, you’ll look like some hipster kid who just wandered out of a Okkervil River concert. If that’s your scene, then go for it. But if not, stay away.

[Matty]

I think skinny jeans are fine if your in the small minority of men who can pull them off. I'm short and stocky, so for me, they're out of the question.

[Schmechti]

Chaos Wrote:Well, don't know about Mark but if you read "The Guide to Wearing Jeans" on PostMasculine:

Yes, but usually they are not so slim for men as they are for women. They come off more as semi-slim. My legs are more skinny but also muscular. Looks better on me than normal jeans. At least this is my impression.

With a leather jacket you also get more looks. In the past I was always against wearing one, but now I feel comfortable with it.

[Edmond Dantès]

@Schmechti: Mark talks about Jeans that fit. I bought last week a jeans that really fits well and it's just great (Here a big thanks to Mark for the Jeans article)

I am actually against skinny jeans. IMO does it look bad and I heard a few negative opinions about it from girls I know.

[Mark]

No, I look terrible in skinny jeans. Very few guys pull them off well. My legs are very long and thick around the thighs, so I wear boot cuts. The specific jeans she complimented me on are the Zatiny cut from Diesel (about $190). They've gotten complimented a few times over the years.

One old school PUA thing that I still adhere to and listen to is to pay attention to how many compliments each of your pieces of clothing gets. Most of your "show pieces" should get be getting compliments (jackets, shoes, scarves, jeans, accessories). If they're not getting complimented, then you should stop wearing them after a while and find something that does. It's a strict code, but follow it for a year or two and you'll get a lot of looks and compliments.

But whatever cut of jean you wear, they should be tight from the knee up, and fit your figure pretty snugly. What's most important is fit. What cut you wear should be determined by fit. My guess though is that at least 50-60% of guys should be wearing straight leg jeans. Gill could probably answer that better than me though.

Speaking of which, the jeans article was written by Gill... who's been knocking it out of the park with the fashion articles the past couple months.
http://postmasculine.com/the-guide-to-wearing-jeans

[Edmond Dantès]

Mark Wrote:You raise a good point Tim, most PUA coaches don't know how to dress well. I can't think of one off the top of my head who dresses particularly well. Just flashy shit with obnoxious designs on them.

What about Christian Hudson? He seems to have a decent style and he always looks good in his suits.

[Mark]

Edmond Dantès Wrote:What about Christian Hudson? He seems to have a decent style and he always looks good in his suits.

Ahh, there's one. I'll give Christian some credit. He had a ballin' pea coat the last time I saw him. Made me jealous.

[sledgehammer]

Thanks Mark, great response.

Feel kinda redicilous to say this but before I got into RSD I actually got compliments on my clothes sometimes from girls, then I watched blueprint where tyler said its all bullshit and you just need to "generate that state from within", so I stopped putting much money on clothes and yeah well, never had any compliments on my clothes for like a year now lol.

Fucking damnit, I cant believe how this little thin haried dude could get into my head so much. Its kind of a fuck up cause some of the things he say seems legit and then theres shitload of bullshit that screwes you up.

[IdEngager]

I think what PUA generally tends to miss about fashion is just how much it is tied to your identity. I think it harkens back to Mark's point that no matter how you express yourself and no matter how attractive you think you are, you're going to be really attractive to some people and unattractive to some people. I mean, if you saw this girl and then saw this girl, wouldn't you instantly draw very different conclusions about what type of girl they are and what they like to do? They are objectively both good looking girls and probably aren't even really that different but that first impression is huge. I like Gill's articles and I think they hit the mark especially regarding fit and quality of construction, but to reach the next level, you're going to have to embrace what your clothes say about your identity. Leather jacket at a punk rock show? Cool. Leather jacket at your office programming job? You better be that programmer headed out to a punk rock show or something like that later. Same reason why fedoras look perfectly fine in pictures from the 50s but totally out of place now.

I feel like you really "get it" with fashion when you know how to look good in all situations. Anyone can look good if they're dressing up for a fancy dinner party or interview, but can you look good when you're out for a run? Could you look good on a trip to the store? It's hard to really quantify that without knowing everyone individually.

That being said, given how terribly most dudes dress, you're probably a step ahead by simply not sucking when you dress.

[Jon]

Girls definitely notice clothing. Some of the things that they notice are not discussed by PUAs (though some are). Everybody knows that girls notice clothes that fit well, community guys typically mention this, etc.

Other things that are noticed: The quality of fabric and the quality of tailoring. People who know about fashion, including most hot women, can tell (ballpark) how expensive a piece of clothing is just by looking at it, and without knowing who the designer is, by looking at fabric quality and tailoring quality.

Girls notice fashion "don'ts" such as wearing white socks, shoes and belt not matching, polo shirts tucked into jeans, etc.

[Alvar]

IdEngager Wrote:I think what PUA generally tends to miss about fashion is just how much it is tied to your identity. I think it harkens back to Mark's point that no matter how you express yourself and no matter how attractive you think you are, you're going to be really attractive to some people and unattractive to some people.

Exactly. It's part of who you are, it can tell something or a lot about you.

A few months ago I was struck when some girls that aren't exactly "my type" started coming to me: accountants/engineers types, girls that were almost as analytical as I used to be. One girl even told me that she though I was an artist. Looking back, I can see the pattern: I was usually wearing a black t-shirt or sweat (+ longish hair and beard.)
When I switched to yellow/orange t-shirts I got the more shy and emotional type of girl to react to me. I like them more, even though they can are often a pain.
It's actually been a interesting experience to get to know those girls but I've wondered how many girls reactions were negative because of my vibe. You just can't please everyone.