Emotional Investment and such....

[trader4life]

I wanted to bounce a few things around here that I have been pondering on. For starters and as a little background, I know we are all here for different reasons and are at different stages of development, but my primary area of focus is not pickup, getting laid or even creating or keeping attraction with woman. Not that I am an all-star in these areas, but I do pretty well, and despite some minor improvements there my primary focus is being more genuine with not just women, but everyone in my life. As far as women go I would say my weakest area is shying away from commitment and having a REAL connection more often and not just here and there.

Okay, here are my questions/issues:

1. In Models Mark states that we should never be MORE invested than the woman is in a relationship or interaction. Isn’t the mere fact that we are trying to be aware of this and avoid it needy and NOT being genuine and vulnerable? This concept has caused a few problems for me with some women that I am almost paranoid about it, which results in me not being as genuine and/or vulnerable at times. To me, this is a form of neediness, and although possibly transparent to a woman at times, I know the truth and it is something I would like some clarification or insight on from you all.

2. My passions – The following from the blog REALLY resonated with me:

“If you’re going to try, go all the way. Otherwise, don’t even start. This could mean losing girlfriends, wives, relatives and maybe even your mind. It could mean not eating for three or four days. It could mean freezing on a park bench. It could mean jail. It could mean derision. It could mean mockery and isolation. Isolation is the gift. All the others are a test of your endurance, of how much you really want to do it. And, you’ll do it, despite rejection and the worst odds. And it will be better than anything else you can imagine. If you’re going to try, go all the way. There is no other feeling like that. You will be alone with the gods, and the nights will flame with fire. You will ride life straight to perfect laughter. It’s the only good fight there is.”

- Charles Bukowski

The reason it did is this, I am a self-employed guy (Equities Trader) and I am truly following my passion for this and I LOVE what I do. The process for me learning this an perfecting my craft has been five years plus and I am at the point now where I have started and will soon be launching my own advisory company as well to manage money for others. About three years ago I split up with my wife of 12 years and went through a pretty rough time with that but have come out the other side as a MUCH better man and it forced me to take a look at some issues I had and work on those.

Just a few days ago I was speaking with my ex wife (we are on great terms and actually pretty good friends now) and she knows about what I am doing and how successful I have become. I told her how a lot of people that know me think and always tell me that I have this great life and some even think my life is “easy” because I do not answer to anyone, come and go as I please, make good money and on the surface (and in reality) I do have it really good. The thing that people don’t see is I worked my fucking ass off to get to this point and made a lot of sacrifices that others don’t see. So when I told her this she said “Don’t take this the wrong way please, but next time someone says that to you tell them that you did work very hard for it and it even cost you your family due to the time that you spent on that when you could have been focused on us.”

Now, I know this sounds like she was being bitchy, but she wasn’t and I knew this to be true already so it was not a surprise. However, it really made me think how much of my life is driven by this and as a result it has affected many of my relationships with women since my ex wife. In a nutshell women want more and more of my time and I end up having to cut them loose most of the time because I refuse to sacrifice what I am passionate about. Not just because it is my career either, but because I really enjoy what I do and at times it requires mass amounts of time.

In ‘The Way of the Superior Man’ Deida says something along the lines of spend time on your passions and nothing else and when it is time to give your time to a woman (or family) focus that time on her only. Basically she will appreciate you for it and love you more was my take on what he was trying to convey. I know he states it differently than that, but you all get the context of what I am saying hopefully.

I’ve had a ton of women say that it is so attractive that I am so driven and took this big risk to step out on my own, etc., etc, but it normally ends up in them resenting me for it in some way. Bottom line is I do not want to change and I love what I do so much that even if it results in me being alone I am fine with that. Oddly enough this mindset also often results in more attraction, but still there ends up being issues with relationships it seems. I guess I just want a sanity check if my thinking is skewed here.

Thanks for taking the time to read.

[Mark]

Quote:1. In Models Mark states that we should never be MORE invested than the woman is in a relationship or interaction. Isn’t the mere fact that we are trying to be aware of this and avoid it needy and NOT being genuine and vulnerable? This concept has caused a few problems for me with some women that I am almost paranoid about it, which results in me not being as genuine and/or vulnerable at times. To me, this is a form of neediness, and although possibly transparent to a woman at times, I know the truth and it is something I would like some clarification or insight on from you all.

Almost all of the confusion that guys have with the content of Models is that they interpret it as a prescription for behavior rather than simply an explanation of how attraction functions. This is no different here.

So yes, being aware and TRYING to be less needy and more vulnerable is, paradoxically, more needy and less vulnerable. The idea is to focus on developing yourself and only yourself, and the lack of neediness and greater vulnerability will begin to naturally happen in your interactions.

Guys keep interpreting the neediness/vulnerability stuff as some sort of outward action or metric for their behavior or success. This goes completely against the entire point of the book, and that is: work on yourself, become an amazing person, open yourself up to your emotions and express them freely... the rest will take care of itself.

[Leo]

(05-13-2012 07:16 PM)Mark Wrote:  Guys keep interpreting the neediness/vulnerability stuff as some sort of outward action or metric for their behavior or success. This goes completely against the entire point of the book, and that is: work on yourself, become an amazing person, open yourself up to your emotions and express them freely... the rest will take care of itself.

Mark, how do you find a woman with the same traits? I find that really hard to do. Lately, I've been behaving in the way you mentioned but I still keep finding women that hide their emotions, that play games, that are not honest with their feelings or don't know how to communicate them, etc. Eventually I get bored and lose interest and don't pursue this kind of woman anymore. What do you do to find a woman with the same traits, or in the case she's hiding her feelings, playinmg games, etc, do you talk with her about it? Do you say to her what do you expect from her?

[shadow]

Leo, for the fifty thousandth time - if you are constantly finding women who are playing games, chances are the problem is........................ YOU!

[trader4life]

Right on. So, just be, or if not already, BECOME an awesome and great guy and you will NEVER BE more emotionally invested than a woman. As with everything else, it is not the goal, but rather, just a by-product of being a great man. In my OP I was not saying that I find myself being more EI, but rather, analyzing too much whether I am (which is neediness also). Either way, this just means I am not where I need to be (which I already knew).

[Mark]

Yup, pretty much... I went into a bit more depth here:

http://postmasculine.com/a-note-on-vulnerability

[Leo]

(05-14-2012 06:46 AM)shadow Wrote:  Leo, for the fifty thousandth time - if you are constantly finding women who are playing games, chances are the problem is........................ YOU!

No, it's NOT me, they are AMERICANS! Fuck it, I'm gonna keep dating latinas and asians, normal women. Period.

[Mark]

Stick with the Latinas.

[Leo]

(05-15-2012 05:35 AM)Mark Wrote:  Stick with the Latinas.

That's for sure, Americans are ADDICTED to playing stupid games. What a waste of time. Pfffffff!

[trader4life]

For me, there is no choice. Latina women are the best! Far more sexy and passionate than most, if not all, American women I have been with.

[Chaos]

You're joking right?

[Leo]

The main difference for me? Latinas LOVE to express their emotions; while americans seem to love to hide their emotions. Huge difference!

(05-15-2012 02:15 PM)trader4life Wrote:  For me, there is no choice. Latina women are the best! Far more sexy and passionate than most, if not all, American women I have been with.

[trader4life]

Absoulutely, when I said passionate I meant not just sexually, but that too. Very well said, Leo!

[Chaos]

Seriously? We tell reesays to stop generalizing and you're gonna do just that here? Granted you are not distilling the bitterness he does but still I find it a bit unfair...

[Leo]

http://www.practicalpickup.com/lame-american-girls

emphasis on: "Sex drive is plummeting."

[crazyhorse]

Chaos by all means....

There are certain traits that occur more in certain populations. If you can't deal with that, then it's just your own politicall correctness that is showing.

[Mark]

There are legitimate cultural difference between people from South America and people from the United States.

There are very few or superficial differences between white people and Indian people within the United States.

I think you're taking this thread too seriously.

[Chaos]

That's why I asked if you were joking.

I don't like the reasoning though. Don't get me wrong, I get the general "feeling" of the conversation but about two or three months ago I had a conversation with a friend that was something like:

- I hate Spanish girls, they're always playing games, they feel like they are always the prize and you have to always initiate with them. That doesn't happen in northern countries.
- (me) you're generalizing and exaggerating. Not all the girls are like that, in fact most girls are NOT like that... True, you have to take the first step but they will usually and willingly lead you to it and are open to it. Not all of them but most are.
- No, because this one time in Germany this one girl just saw me and was with another guy and just pushed him away and give me this look and...
- so did you talked to her, did anything happen?
- No, because she wasn't actually that cute and I didn't approach but you don't get it, I'm telling you, Spanish girls are just harder and a bunch of whores.

For most guys that kind of generalizations are just EXCUSES. I'm convinced there are cultural differences of course but they're not such a big deal. Yeah Latinas are more straight forward (some of them anyway) and Swiss girls are usually a little more shy... I was just pointing out how contradictory it might sound to voice it like that.

We can't bash reesays for being such a dick about making race generalizations and then proceed to do cultural generalizations... At least not with out explaining why there's a difference. Let's be honest, if it had been reesays the one saying:

Quote:No, it not me, they are AMERICAN

And

Quote:That's for sure, AMERICANS are addicted to games

What would have been our reaction? I'm just saying.

[trader4life]

(05-17-2012 12:06 PM)Chaos Wrote:  Seriously? We tell reesays to stop generalizing and you're gonna do just that here? Granted you are not distilling the bitterness he does but still I find it a bit unfair...

I can't speak for Mark, and I assume that is meant for him from the original statement, but I don't see it that way. For me it was more of a preference thing based on my experiences. I still date and sleep with American girls and some are really great women. However, given my choice I have just had some of the best experiences of my life (and not just sexual) with Latina women, as a result I find myself more attracted to them.

I took Leo's comments as more of a comparison thing based on HIS experiences vice a generalization of ALL American women.

[Chaos]

Trader4life I know. I get how this is different, basically because there's the difference between choosing between two options because you can and criticizing one option because you feel you can't choose it.

Still I wanted to point out the divergence in reactions and advice.

[trader4life]

I hear ya man. I can see how this had some of a 'reesays theme' to it though once we went down that worm hole. I had gone back and read what Leo said and it defintely had some of that flavor but he did say it "seems" that they play games or whatever, but I assume that was from his experience. Not to sure if that tone is prevelant in his other stuff on other threads though. Mark started the whole thing with his Latina comment so it's his fault anyway. haha

[Leo]

To me it's about a preference thing. I'm latino and of course it's a lot easier to communicate with latinas, IDK usually my interactions with americans go like this: Girl shows interest(or I show interest), I ask for the telephone #, she gives me the #, I text-call her, she doesn't answer or she is the busiest person in the world. Scheduling problems arise, if we go on a date she sees a guy that she thinks is attractive and she says that to me, she asks me if I am gay (for God's sake!), if we go to bed there's even some teasing in bed (read Mark's article about Lame American girls). I get tired of so much BS lose interest and move on. I used to think this kind of interactions were happening to me because I was hitting on young american girls, so I decided to hit on americans around my age (39 y-o), the same pattern repeats again. I don't like it, I don't enjoy it, I see it like something fake, boring, childish. To be honest I used to play along-play dumb before but if I'm congruent with this Forum, with what Mark teaches why I'm gonna be fake instead of being authentic?

My interactions with Latinas and Asians are usually like this: We show attraction to each other, we exchange contact information, they answer the phone, there's no problem to get together, just a little bit of teasing, we have sex and fun. There's an honest communication. I prefer this.

But it's true, generalizations are bad. To be honest the best sexual experience and emotional connection I've had in a short period of time (just 8 hours) it happened with an american girl. She used to date brazilians, but hey! She's american, she didn't play games, it was easy to go out on a date with her, she was honest and showed her attraction to me without any restriction.

[Leo]

[FirstAidKit]

I think a lot of it comes down to terrible dating advice aimed at women - REALLY FUCKING TERRIBLE. Play hard to get, don't give it up too easy, don't seem too keen, 3 dates!, seem like you are busy. The constant message is that expressing yourself openly, actually telling a guy 'I really like you, I'd like to be your girlfriend' is going to make them run screaming for the hills, telling a guy you are horny and want to fuck him is going to make him think you are a slutty mc slut slut and think less of you. It takes a lot to make yourself vulnerable like that and I don't think American or English dating culture rewards that vulnerability as much as latin culture. There's a lot more value placed on connection and openness and emotions. I don't really know how you could change it. I'd like to try, though.

I'm going to plug the pervocracy's Cosmocking series here - she does a monthly round up of all the terrible advice in that month's issue. Be amazed and appalled.

[Chaos]

Yeah, FAK, I agree. As time goes by I become more and more convinced there're less differences between dating advice for men and women. Basically, although we're different in some ways, the basics still stand. Be a confident strong man on woman and put yourself in the line, having the knowledge that you're able to handle anything that's thrown at you.

The tactics and strategies are just ways to cover what you lak of the above.