Dr. Robert Glover on pickup podcast

[Trickster]

http://pickuppodcast.com/2012/01/16/epis...-nice-guy/

I think it's really good.

[Guyintheback]

Thanks for the link. I'm listening to it right now. Read the book already, so it isn't that much new stuff, but nevertheless interesting to her it once again, with the Dr.'s comments.

The person doing the interview seems out of his depth sometimes, though.

[Andy]

Listened to the whole podcast at work today. Really really enjoyed it, a lot of the things he was saying about being "nice" really hit home for me. Some of it borders on what Mark says about being honest, and being nice in a way that's truly genuine, rather than being somebody who uses niceness as a "bartering system" to get something in return, basically expecting good things via dishonesty.

Thanks for the link!

[Mark]

Haven´t heard this, but Glover has been very influential on me.

[Trickster]

Yeah, it pretty much covers the main points of his book: that nice guys usually operate under a covert contract with the world that if they're good they'll get what they want. This leads them to behave in ways that are not genuine. This behavior is usually inspired by some childhood/adolescent trauma, like divorce, or an absentee father, which led their subconscious mind to blame themselves for an imperfect youth, and a belief that if they do things "the right way" that they can have the perfect life they were missing as a child. This is called the concept of "toxic shame".

But what ends up happening is that they become doormats for others and people end up not respecting them because of this "nice guy" nature. And they usually end up pretty angry and resentful at the world for it not conforming to their expectations. Read any online rant from "nice guys" about how all women like "assholes" and you'll see seeds of this in there.

It resonated with me especially since my parents split into a dysfunctional estranged pseudo-marriage when I was young and I grew up resenting my father. I also realized recently that my anxiety with women may be coming from this desire to make everything perfect and conform my relationships with women into this idealized version of how I want my life to be. This leads to neediness, and, of course, rejection, then disappointment and then self-loathing. Beginning the process of letting go of that has been a big part of me moving forward as a man.

[Guyintheback]

Trickster Wrote:It resonated with me especially since my parents split into a dysfunctional estranged pseudo-marriage when I was young and I grew up resenting my father. I also realized recently that my anxiety with women may be coming from this desire to make everything perfect and conform my relationships with women into this idealized version of how I want my life to be. This leads to neediness, and, of course, rejection, then disappointment and then self-loathing. Beginning the process of letting go of that has been a big part of me moving forward as a man.

Would you mind sharing how you did that?

[Andy]

Trickster Wrote:It resonated with me especially since my parents split into a dysfunctional estranged pseudo-marriage when I was young...

Yeah I can sort of relate; throughout my childhood, I noticed my parents becoming more and more distant as time went on. I had the absent father until about the age of 5 or so. On top of that, I repeatedly got the "don't ever be like your father...ever" rant from my mom many many times in my adolescence as well. All that shit eventually takes it's toll in different ways, as Glover points out in that podcast.

For many years my niceness came from a very needy place, and I'm also working on becoming less needy, but it's a long process and takes time. At the end of the podcast Glover gives small practical examples of how to be a better "receivers" ('nice guys' are usually excellent givers but suck at receiving), which I thought was interesting. Stuff like going for a massage, spending some time alone, investing in yourself.

[Trickster]

Guyintheback Wrote:Would you mind sharing how you did that?

Well, the first step is realizing that this was what was happening. That took some therapy, but it also took a lot of introspection. After I realized that, I was able to forgive my dad and mom for being human and for having human flaws. I finally, after like 28 years, bonded with my dad in a man to man way I hadn't before. I realize this isn't an option for some people, but it was very good for me.

And you know, it's still a process. But you have to appreciate gradual improvement too. I just got over-invested and too needy with a girl I liked and it ended up falling apart. But instead of going into resentment and self-hate, which I had done before, I went into a place self reflection and rejection wasn't nearly as bad. Transforming those sorts of deep psychological beliefs is tough and takes a while, but you gotta be aware of what's going on and correct your self-thought. Eventually, I think, you get to where you're going. At least, I hope so.

[Guyintheback]

Thanks for the reply Trickster!

[trader4life]

Andy and Trickster - I find it very interesting that you all had absentee Fathers and it ended up causing you to be "nice guys". I had one also and along with you Andy always got the "your father is an asshole, don't be like him". Of course my parents divorced at a somewhat young age for me (11). However, instead of being a nice guy I have always been an asshole, but I have recently realized (since my divorce 2 yrs ago) that it was simply a defense mechanism of sorts. Never had problems getting girls per se or getting laid and was usually in "control" of things, but never had healthy relationships and always had a motive (although subconscious).

I guess I had neediness to some extent but I hid it well (fake alpha), which in my opinion can be more detrimental in the long run if one basically starts from that place. I feel fortunate to have realized this, even though it wasn't until well into my 30's and through a lot of reading and introspect being able to make some changes.

[Mark]

I had an emotionally absent father as well, divorced at 13.

One thing that has been almost universal across every client I've ever worked with is that they grew up with a weak father figure or no father figure. It's really incredible. It's when I started to realize this a couple years ago that it really made me start to think of the pick up community as a support group in disguise, and that the men who are driven to this kind of behavior are men who never had a clear model of masculinity growing up.

[Trickster]

trader4life Wrote:Andy and Trickster - I find it very interesting that you all had absentee Fathers and it ended up causing you to be "nice guys". I had one also and along with you Andy always got the "your father is an asshole, don't be like him". Of course my parents divorced at a somewhat young age for me (11). However, instead of being a nice guy I have always been an asshole, but I have recently realized (since my divorce 2 yrs ago) that it was simply a defense mechanism of sorts. Never had problems getting girls per se or getting laid and was usually in "control" of things, but never had healthy relationships and always had a motive (although subconscious).

I guess I had neediness to some extent but I hid it well (fake alpha), which in my opinion can be more detrimental in the long run if one basically starts from that place. I feel fortunate to have realized this, even though it wasn't until well into my 30's and through a lot of reading and introspect being able to make some changes.

I think people have different psychological responses to this kind of trauma. If you read Tucker Max's story, he clearly went the "narcissistic asshole" route, which got him laid a bunch but didn't lead to any sort of life satisfaction. Being a nice guy is at the opposite end of the spectrum: castrating yourself sexually and socially to try to please others. Finding a healthy and genuine masculinity isn't so much about a middle ground but more about finding a new way to look at the world.

[Mark]

The difference is that Tucker also had a very estranged and poor relationship with his mother. Generally, guys who suffer from nice guy syndrome do so because their mother was a much more dominant figure in their lives growing up. Guys who grow up with poor/abusive relationships with both parents usually completely dissociate and go the Fake-Alpha over-compensation route. Tucker would be an extreme example of that.

[trader4life]

For whatever reason this just interests the shit out of me. Especially that last part, Mark. I know there is no one size fits all, but I had a really good relationship with my mother, and if anything, she was too over protective. That caused me to rebel a lot as a teenager in an effort to shed my self-label of being a "momma's boy". I can see now that getting my way when I was younger carried over to my relationships in many ways by being passive-aggressive with women.

I'm not sure if that is the best label because I wasn't passive so much, but very manipulative (i.e. if you do this and validate me I will treat you good, if not I won't). Even though this often ‘worked’ and I got my way it was completely unhealthy and VERY needy behavior. Generally, once I got my way for a certain period of time I would still end up treating girls/women like shit and taking them for granted and such. Basically it was a machine that needed to be fed more and more to sustain.

From whichever end we start I think there are certain aspects of being nice or being a jerk than can still be good but it comes down to our motives, or lack of I guess.

[Guyintheback]

Well, in the interest of science:

My father is a weak guy, shies away from confrontation, is passive aggressive, and alcoholic since I'm eleven.

Unfortunately I picked up many of these traits from him, which really affects my relationships with women.

My mom was very protective of my younger brother and me. On a conscious level she always encouraged us to go out, live life, be independent etc. But unconsciously she relied a lot on me (I am the older one) to support her, and be "not like your father", be reliable and so on.

I can't blame her for that, it was very hard for her, and I guess if I hadn't helped the way I did, things around here would have pretty much broken down for good.

But in the long run it made me a textbook Nice Guy, and I am struggling really really hard right now to make some changes, and get out of this downward spiral.

[Edmond Dantès]

Guyintheback Wrote:Well, in the interest of science:

My father is a weak guy, shies away from confrontation, is passive aggressive, and alcoholic since I'm eleven.

Unfortunately I picked up many of these traits from him, which really affects my relationships with women.

My mom was very protective of my younger brother and me. On a conscious level she always encouraged us to go out, live life, be independent etc. But unconsciously she relied a lot on me (I am the older one) to support her, and be "not like your father", be reliable and so on.

I can't blame her for that, it was very hard for her, and I guess if I hadn't helped the way I did, things around here would have pretty much broken down for good.

But in the long run it made me a textbook Nice Guy, and I am struggling really really hard right now to make some changes, and get out of this downward spiral.

Ever thought about moving out? I'm sure it would be really benefitial for you as you get out of your familiar environment and in your new environment it should be easier to change your nice-guy behaviour.


The Podcast is golden. Thanks for the link! Listening to it right now as I'm writing this.

[Guyintheback]

Actually moving out is my top goal for this year.
I'll also try to move to another country for half a year or so to leave all that behind for a while.

[Andy]

trader4life Wrote:I know there is no one size fits all, but I had a really good relationship with my mother, and if anything, she was too over protective. That caused me to rebel a lot as a teenager in an effort to shed my self-label of being a "momma's boy".

Heh, funny I went through the SAME thing. Always got that classic momma's boy label in grade school, and made a point to changing that in high school by being as much of a bad-ass as I could. Thing is, somehow I couldn't keep up that image very well (somehow people's first impressions of me was the 'nice guy'), it was something I tried to prove to myself more than anything.

Guyintheback -- regarding moving out to another country. I say DO IT... even if you have only a small urge to. This is coming from a guy who actually did it himself I'm originally from Canada (born and raised in Toronto if you're wondering), and I've been living abroad for almost 5 years now, and currently live in Prague, Czech Republic. I can say without a single doubt in my mind that this experience has helped me in my self-development, self-esteem, and made me trust myself more as a person. Also because I've met up with so many new people, my social skills have improved and i feel now I'm more socially aware than i was a few years ago. Basically helped all areas of my life. Plus the whole being independent thing really does make you feel like more of a man. Dunno how that works but it just does, at least for me.