Dated this girl need some advice on where I went wrong

[Thor]

Approached this girl in her mid 30s in a shop whilst she was browsing some clothes and said "excuse me" she turned to me and smiled then I said "you look absolutely gorgeous" she smiled and stood their silently and said thankyou. She continued to gaze at me I kept looking at her she asked me where I was from.

We had a where are you from conversation. It turned out she was from New York and was living here in London on a business trip. After about five minutes of chatting I invited her for a coffee at starbucks. She said she had to meet friends in 20 mins she offered her number and said "callme later". We swapped numbers, the same evening I called her she picked up the phone right away

Oldguy: "Hey its me how are you"
Girl: "Heyy I am good how are you ?"

We chatted for a few minutes on the phone and talked about how different New York is compared to London. I asked if she was free tomorrow afternoon for a drink.

She said replied "Listen I am going out tonight to XXX bar why dont you come down and join me for drinks"

I said I couldnt as I had already planned to see a movie with a friend that evening. She was cool about meeting up the next day. We kept sending each other texts that evening. It was like she was so into me.

The afternoon we met up. Gave her a hug and we sat down over a drink. She told me how she had broken up with her boyfriend the day I had approached her and I had reminded her of a movie she watched cant remember the name of the movie think she said vicki in Barcelona or something.

Next she started talking and talking about her company and how she was the managing director of her own company. I had talked about my previous online business and we talked about movies. The thing is she was doing nearly 70% of the talking.

I recall Mark saying I should escalate so I attempted to, was feeling alittle nervous. I interrupted her and said "I love the look and smell of your hair" she smiled and said thankyou and then said "ohh I didnt get time to do my hair this morning".

She then switched back to talking about movies. After a drink I said lets go for a walk she agreed so as we got outside the bar. I grabbed her pulled her close to me and began making out with her.

She made out with me and then turned away and said "Ohhh I cant do this so sorry I just broke up with my boyfriend".

I said no problem we went for a walk continued to chat. I held her hand as we walked near the river then she said "I have to meet friends soon".

I said thats ok no problem. I walked her back to the station. An hour later I sent her a text saying "It was nice chatting" she never replied.

I called her the next day I hit voice mail. Left her a voice mail..Havent heard from her for days. It would have been nice if she had at least replied back to my texts. What the fuck did I do wrong ? I dont understand ?. One minute shes sending me loads of texts next shes gone silent !.

[Chaos]

You didn't make anything wrong. This shit happens from time to time... Maybe she was feeling guilty and perceiving herself as slutty for being with another guy so soon or whatever, there might me a thousand reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with you or anything you did.

Anyway don't give up just because she isn't answering. For your description we was really into you, if only because is the ideal Hollywood romantic scene where just after she breaks up another guy approaches her in the middle of the day. Just keep it soft, wait for her to give you a sign (call or text) and if she doesn't in two or three days just give her another call. If she still doesn't answer just move on.

Rereading I see that you already made the above, so just move on. Keep in mind though that this shit happens and please don't think it has anything to do with you. In fact, when this happens what you must be thinking is that, no matter what, is really rude of a girl to behave like that... I would prefer to meet a girl that acknowledge that she's been getting me mixed signals (like going on a date and making out) and that she's sorry, rather than a girl who just stops answering.

[Salaam]

This woman has a lot of emotions on her plate right now, especially if she broke up with her boyfriend that very same day. Emotions tend to get jumbled up, the good feelings you brought about in her are in the same space as all the other stuff she's dealing with in her life. That doesn't make them any less important, but you need to keep in mind the complexities of a person. Reactions will not be all about you, her not responding to you is not all about you. All you can do is be you and extend out your hand to her in invitation, its up to her to accept, and says nothing about you're sense of self if she doesn't.

Give her space, let her come to terms with her life and her feelings. If she contacts you cool, if not, you had a nice time with someone, appreciate it, move on, and look forward to the next one... when its all said and done, its those beautiful moments that really matter.

Just keep plugging away my dude, you'll get to where you need to be soon enough.

[Thor]

Thanks for your input guys. I tend to be very logical when I approach matters like this. I have to say I did have a fun time with her will try calling her in a few days if she doesnt respond will move on.

[Trickster]

One of the most important things I've learned in "the game" is how little of the process we actually control. We can't control how people react to us. We can only influence this by controlling the person we put out to them. Influence does not equal control. Even given that, how someone reacts to the person we put out is largely more about their wants and their desires than it is about ours.

In that way, "game" is more about controlling two things: the image of yourself that you put out, and the fall out from the consequences (be it acceptance of that you, or rejection of that you). As a sufi proverb puts it, "The sage tries to control his own ego, while the fool tries to control the ego of others." As long as you are operating honestly and openly with women, then playing the second guessing game is really a waste of your time and mental energies. So the answer is, you did nothing wrong, as long as you look back and can tell yourself "I put myself out there and showed someone part of who I am." Every time you can say that, it's a success, no matter the outcome.

[Tim]

(04-06-2012 10:44 PM)Trickster Wrote:  In that way, "game" is more about controlling two things: the image of yourself that you put out, and the fall out from the consequences

I've never heard it said in those exact words, but that is the perfect summation.

[James]

This kinda reminds me of a date I had a few years ago with this model girl who I was so into. She was super into me before the date and then "i somehow messed it up" and she was no longer interested.

Looking back on that date now, I cringe at my old behaviour. This may or may not be the case, but from reading your post, my number one thought on what the problem was for you was: neediness.

I'm going to point out every part of it that I noticed. It's probably way too nitpicky but losing neediness helped me so much (or pretending to lose it in some cases). Also, I think the hotter the girl is, the more she notices it.

The non needy behaviour your did was that you asked her to meet up the next day even when she invited you out that same night. That was good.

Anyway here goes with the needy stuff that I noticed:

You said that you guys were texting a lot back and forth the night before you met. I would have left it at a few times and keep her curious and excited to see/talk to you. Just end the texting on your terms soon.

Your compliment to her "I love the look and smell of your hair" may or may not have been awkward. Sounds like it came out of nowhere so that could have maybe seemed weird to her. Also depending on if you were sitting beside her or across. Beside would make more sense for that comment. Being really close to her would also help making the escalation more natural.

Personally I would try not to be so serious with compliments/escalation. I would make sure I'm sitting beside her and look her in the eyes. I usually do something more like "hmm you're kinda sexy". For some reaon I feel that something like that is less weird than a really serious compliment. It's more forward but more flirty or something. Anyway, up to you of course.

It's good that you pulled her in and went for the makeout! So after her reaction, I kinda cringed. You started to hold her hand while walking by the river. To me that seems really needy/try hard. Especially on a first date and also after her reaction. I would pull back more and be cool. No hand holding or romantic walks that soon.

Here, SHE decides it's time for her to leave instead of you ending the date (having other important things to do).

Then you walk her back to the station. OK that is polite and understandable at night time etc but again it's you putting in effort.

Then you text her a message saying it was nice meeting her which could be very needy after a date. It's basically asking her to agree and showing that you're not sure how she's feeling and you're trying to persuade her to agree with you. Also, remember, you are an important guy with lots of things going on. After you leave her, you shouldn't be thinking about her and sending texts that night, you're out having fun or getting things done.

You probably know what I'm going to say next. Calling her the very next day. To me that shows tonnes of neediness. She didn't answer your text, so you call her the very next day. On top of that, you leave a message. Again, you're important and busy. You don't have time for that. You have other things going on.

I hope that didn't seem harsh. It just totally reminds me of that date I had and I know exactly why I messed it up. But I didn't know at the time. Becoming aware of the whole needy thing really helped me with all this stuff. I've also had the reverse, where girls act needy and it's a huge turn off. It's funny to be on the other end of it. I know I was really nitpicky and I'm sure some people will say that by being so careful of neediness, I'm in fact being needy, but for the learning process, I think it's very good to be aware of these things. Also, the "natural" guys I've met who do well with women have always had this mindset.

I remember an old quote from David DeAngelo - "Give her the gift of missing you" She wants to miss you and think about you and have to work for you. If you give it all away, especially so early, there's no challenge or excitement for her.

Just my thoughts

[Thor]

James theres and old saying the truth hurts well thankyou for pointing out where I was being needy. This is exactly what I needed to know,Will keep these points in mind for future dates. The texts I was sending to her the day before I guess I get all excited about her being into me.

(04-07-2012 04:45 AM)James Wrote:  This kinda reminds me of a date I had a few years ago with this model girl who I was so into. She was super into me before the date and then "i somehow messed it up" and she was no longer interested.

Looking back on that date now, I cringe at my old behaviour. This may or may not be the case, but from reading your post, my number one thought on what the problem was for you was: neediness.

I'm going to point out every part of it that I noticed. It's probably way too nitpicky but losing neediness helped me so much (or pretending to lose it in some cases). Also, I think the hotter the girl is, the more she notices it.

The non needy behaviour your did was that you asked her to meet up the next day even when she invited you out that same night. That was good.

Anyway here goes with the needy stuff that I noticed:

You said that you guys were texting a lot back and forth the night before you met. I would have left it at a few times and keep her curious and excited to see/talk to you. Just end the texting on your terms soon.

Your compliment to her "I love the look and smell of your hair" may or may not have been awkward. Sounds like it came out of nowhere so that could have maybe seemed weird to her. Also depending on if you were sitting beside her or across. Beside would make more sense for that comment. Being really close to her would also help making the escalation more natural.

Personally I would try not to be so serious with compliments/escalation. I would make sure I'm sitting beside her and look her in the eyes. I usually do something more like "hmm you're kinda sexy". For some reaon I feel that something like that is less weird than a really serious compliment. It's more forward but more flirty or something. Anyway, up to you of course.

It's good that you pulled her in and went for the makeout! So after her reaction, I kinda cringed. You started to hold her hand while walking by the river. To me that seems really needy/try hard. Especially on a first date and also after her reaction. I would pull back more and be cool. No hand holding or romantic walks that soon.

Here, SHE decides it's time for her to leave instead of you ending the date (having other important things to do).

Then you walk her back to the station. OK that is polite and understandable at night time etc but again it's you putting in effort.

Then you text her a message saying it was nice meeting her which could be very needy after a date. It's basically asking her to agree and showing that you're not sure how she's feeling and you're trying to persuade her to agree with you. Also, remember, you are an important guy with lots of things going on. After you leave her, you shouldn't be thinking about her and sending texts that night, you're out having fun or getting things done.

You probably know what I'm going to say next. Calling her the very next day. To me that shows tonnes of neediness. She didn't answer your text, so you call her the very next day. On top of that, you leave a message. Again, you're important and busy. You don't have time for that. You have other things going on.

I hope that didn't seem harsh. It just totally reminds me of that date I had and I know exactly why I messed it up. But I didn't know at the time. Becoming aware of the whole needy thing really helped me with all this stuff. I've also had the reverse, where girls act needy and it's a huge turn off. It's funny to be on the other end of it. I know I was really nitpicky and I'm sure some people will say that by being so careful of neediness, I'm in fact being needy, but for the learning process, I think it's very good to be aware of these things. Also, the "natural" guys I've met who do well with women have always had this mindset.

I remember an old quote from David DeAngelo - "Give her the gift of missing you" She wants to miss you and think about you and have to work for you. If you give it all away, especially so early, there's no challenge or excitement for her.

Just my thoughts

[Halo Effect]

James,

You are right that neediness is unattractive.

However, whether something is needy has more to do with the intent behind behavior than behavior itself. Much of the behavior you call needy could be anything but needy, like giving a sincere compliment without expecting anything in return.

Furthermore, you decide whether a behavior is needy by how you come across and what she will think of you if you act that way. Deciding what to do based on what you think she will think of you IS the very definition of neediness.

If you try to act in a way that does not seem needy to others, then you are still being needy, because it's needy when you care more about their opinion of your behavior than your own. Not being needy means that you do what you want to do because that is what you want to do; because that is how you want to express yourself.

[Trickster]

Yeah, I'm going to agree with Halo Effect here. Being "not needy" is more about the mindset than behaviors. Having a non-needy mindset will breed non-needy behaviors. Going into every interaction trying to act "non-needy" strikes me as robotic and probably counter productive. In fact, obsessing about all the small details about your interaction, whether they're needy or not needy, assumes that the other person cares so much about the little stuff that it is, in and of itself, needy.

Complimenting someone, for instance, is not in and of itself needy behavior. It can be, if you do it from a place where you're seeking her approval and a reaction. It isn't when you're doing it from a place of genuineness. Second guessing yourself about what is and isn't needy behavior will get in the way of being genuine.

Instead of focusing on neediness, focus on yourself, and the image you want to put out. Make this image an honest expression of yourself, regardless of what she thinks. If that honest expression involves compliments, then compliment her. If it involves texting her goodnight, than text her good night. Just don't do it expecting any sort of reaction on her part. That's up to her, not up to you.

Hell, I don't know whether Mark will agree, but I'd even say that you should prioritize honesty over neediness. So lets say you go out with a girl on a 3-4 dates and have a great time. She seems to have a good time too. And yet you text her and she doesn't respond. If we're playing this "needy, non needy" game then we should be like "oh whatever" and forget about her. But hey, you went on a few great dates (so you thought) and you feel bad. Is it really that awful to just call her and ask her what the heck is going on rather than sitting around torturing yourself because you don't want to appear needy? I mean, who, in the end, would care more about that stuff than you? Do whatever helps you sleep at night.

[SeXyBaCk]

Yeah Halo & Trickster have nailed it. Many on here lately seem to be very concerned with not appearing needy. Like neediness is a huge bane that must be kept under the rug under all circumstances. All these question about is this or that needy behaviour, what do I say, how do I act... the fact that you're impatient and need to know everything right now about what a woman's intentions or feeling are for you and where it's all going is downright needy. By having all these questions and thoughts it's already established, you're needy.

Before you crucify yourself, we're all needy to an extent, it's normal. Secondly, women are not afraid of neediness or are turned off by it per se. That's PUA theary that you need to appear disinterested to get the woman. As far as I know women are more turned off by being hassled and too much serious attention too soon. As men are. I'm turned off if a woman is all over me right away. I feel like I haven't done anything to earn the admiration and there's no time or space for my own feelings to develop. And the question that pops into my head right away is "does this person actually like me for we've only spent little time together, or do they just want a boyfriend/girlfriend (and is just frigging needy)?".

So how do you snap out of having needy thoughts? Well, do other things, which OldGuy I know you are doing, you seem to be constantly approaching new women and doing stuff, great. Aside from that... train yourself in patience. Patience really is a virtue and one when mastered helps in all walks of life, especially in relationships romantic or otherwise. Being a patient man is a good thing. Thirdly... I don't like this word but mindset. How about you look at it this way. If you met your future wife tomorrow, and I told you, hey, this is your future wife (and you just believed me). Would you book the wedding venue and your honeymoon already? Start sending out invitations? No you wouldn't. You'd enjoy every single minute of getting to know your future wife right? You'd do all the things that are meant to happen. First date, first kiss, first fight, first make up and so on and on. I think you'd even enjoy the sensation of missing this woman when she's not around.

Essentially you need to let go of this "need to know everything right here right now about what's going to happen with me and this woman". Time flies, a week, two weeks is nothing. All I know is if a mate calls me and wants to go for a beer and I'm feeling kinda lazy and say...hey, I don't know yet, maybe later, I'll call you, and instead they call back in half an hour and let it ring for 12 times...what do you think my answers going to be? You hassle people about something their mind isn't made up yet, they're going to make it up in a way you won't like.

This post is getting too long.

About your situation, nothing you can do. Write one single text saying something along the lines of "hey, you were just on my mind... i appreciate you have a lot on your plate right now, if you want to hang out in future, give me a shout, this is my number email etc, take care of yourself, I hope you're well. ... basically saying you're interested, but don't expect to hear from her anytime soon.

[James]

I agree with you guys in theory. And Sexyback, you're still saying not to be needy. You're pointing out that being needy too soon is annoying and a turn off. I agree.

I said that I was being really nitpicky on purpose and I agree that really fussing over every detail is needy in itself.

On the other hand, some of you are saying to just be honest with yourself and her. Well, if you're at a certain stage in this process, you honestly really really want that girl and want to call her all the time and text her etc = a big turn off.

So, while I agree with you about those mindsets in the long run, at certain stages, I think it's really important to be aware of neediness and the amount of effort you and she are putting in, so that you don't end up way over doing it. Once you get these concepts and then get more life experience, then you will probably start to have those more natural mindsets.

But from my own experience, if you just tell a guy to be honest with himself etc, then it's so confusing. Kinda like RSD terms..really vague and broad concepts that you can't understand yet.

A small example. Let's say you get a guy who doesn't know anything about game and he's not a natural. He gets a girl's number and wants to text her right away and call her and tell her how excited he is and how much he likes her. He can't stop thinking about her. So, are you going to tell him to be honest with her and tell her his true feelings or are you gonna tell him to chill out and just wait a bit and be cool? Give her some space. I know that even just giving her a day of space would be hard for a guy in that situation.

So I just wanted to break it down. Just my opinion but for me, becoming aware of this stuff has improved my "game" hugely and I cringe on my old behaviour and know why things went wrong.