Cockiness does not equal confidence

[Zac]

A few months a go a girl messaged me that I haven't spoken to much in years. She was talking to me about how much she wants to hang out and talk because she was going to visit for a week.

I basically take this as a "I'm hitting on you" type of situation on her part. I'm so awesome right? Of course she is into me. I respond with some cocky bullshit basically trying to push her off but keep her interested. Overgaming alone has always been a huge problem of mine but any game whatsoever wasn't even necessary here.

Weeks later she doesn't end up hitting me up when she visits. Kind of sucks because we used to be pretty good friends and I would have loved to hang out in reality.

Looking back, I had absolutely no reason to behave the way I did besides the fact that I thought I was the man and every girl obviously must be interested in me.

All this stuff has screwed me up. This girl probably just wanted to be my friend because I'm awesome and she is awesome (I know that still sounds cocky but whatever). I've been thinking about how much my interactions are sneakily pushed in my head by "dating" and 'women" and it's kind of crazy.

I don't know if this all makes sense or this is the place for this but I've just been thinking about it a lot lately and wanted to share.

[SeXyBaCk]

Interesting topic...

I'm a cocky mofo but I really don't show it until I connect with a woman who I know is interested in me. In my every day interaction i'm rather humble, or rather neutral, as I would call it. Those who know me a little are well aware I'm not lacking in the self confidence department. I'm not cocky around other guys either, unless I'm being challenged about something.

I feel once I've established with a woman that something is going on between us (mutual respect) I can get away with being extremely cocky, at the same time I think it's important to be able to laugh at myself. Cocky behaviour inevitably leads to banter and playful criticism (at least from a woman who feels she's on par with you), and you have to be able to take that criticism and banter with a smile, as cockiness is a provocation to her. If you show that you're naturally confident but willingly taking expressive confidence to a ridiculous extreme you will be rewarded by woman rubbing your ego ("oh yes, you're so good" "really?" "yes"). That is something women enjoy, talking up their man, just like we enjoy complimenting our woman and making her feel she's attractive.

Being cocky right from the first moment on and never letting up... I don't see women (at least those I've been with) finding that attractive. It's douchy behaviour by definition, and eventually they're like okay, what else is there about this person? and if nothing comes but more of the same...interest vanishes.

I also don't see much point in faking cockiness if you don't possess a healthy source of confidence (regardless of what it is) behind it. At the end of the day, I regard being cocky as a sense of positive humour, mostly directed at myself.

Hard to say why that girl didn't get back to you... possible she just thought 'ugh, what a douche he's become'. Could have been many other reasons. At least you realised in time and learnt from the experience.

A lot of these "game" ideas are more harmful than helpful. For every guy out there there's a girl, more than 1.0 actually, as there are more gay men than lesbians in the world, and more women than men statistically. As long as a guy keeps himself in order, gets his shit together, makes the best of what he has and keeps approaching women, something good is bound to happen for him.

The worst misconception in PUA is that of women and how they're supposed to be these simple, judgemental, rejecting, man eating creatures that need to be and can be conned into the sack.

[trader4life]

Good post Zac and very interesting. I used to be pretty cocky but realized over the last few years it was just some form of insecurity manifesting itself. Basically, for me, I really used to utilize it as a "tatic" to seek approval and gain external validation. Also, I think in my case and this may apply to many others as well, that being super cocky is a defense mechanism. What I mean is when a guy ACTS cocky he is basically putting up a shield or even being on the offensive in the event that whomever he is dealing with (group or individual) cannot say anything to affect him. At least that is my two cents. I would be interested to hear what some guys that have really made solid transformations and have seen tremendous development as men have to say about this.

[baller08]

Quote:Being cocky right from the first moment on and never letting up... I don't see women (at least those I've been with) finding that attractive. It's douchy behaviour by definition, and eventually they're like okay, what else is there about this person? and if nothing comes but more of the same...interest vanishes.

Exactly. So don't throw the baby out with the bath water, Zac. Cockiness is just a word to describe a man who isn't easily swayed by what people think of him, that he values what he thinks of himself more than others. Any man who has had any experience with women can tell you how attractive that is.

So instead of saying that it doesn't work or has no place in the dating process, what you should get out of this was that it was mis-used and unnecessary in THIS CASE. I would bet you a $1 she was definitely interested in you. A woman isn't going to call a guy up to hang out out of the blue unless there is some interest (I'm assuming you don't come off as a man that would be put into the Friend Zone).

Think of it this way, ask the nice guys on this or any forum how many times a cute girl just called them up to hang out when they come into town. They never get these calls because women aren't attracted to them.

So just chalk this up to experience. Most tools you've learned are useful, it's just about the right time to use it. Knowing when the right time to use it will come as you get into more situations like these.

[Zac]

Well, cockiness still doesn't mean confidence either way you cut it. Cockiness can be you being absolutely stupid.

I've been told I'm cocky a bunch and it's worked out great for me, I'm just trying to highlight that sometimes it isn't confidence, it's just you being a fucking idiot.

[trader4life]

I think everyone likely agrees with the general theme that being cocky does not mean a guy has confidence. What I mean is this: Sure, a guy that is confident may act or say cocky things some of the time. However, I have seen a ton of guys that it is so obvious they are super insecure when they are over the top and trying to get attention/approval or whatever. I get what baller is saying as well. Being cocky vs. being a nice guy will definitely get a guy pursued more and obviously laid, but I think it comes down to what caliber of women will it attract. Sexyback saying it is "douchy" is spot on. As with anything else doing it in a playful way can be funny but think about guys that are TRULY confident. Do they have to tell everyone, women or otherwise, how great they are?

[baller08]

Right. It's just about using it at the right time.

And honestly, I rarely use the word "confidence" when speaking about this stuff because it's so misconstrued and people just throw it out there as if it's suppose to be this magical thing you're supposed to have.

Confidence is simply a byproduct. What you're looking for is competence. When you have competence in an area, you automatically exude calm, leadership, and knowing the right thing to do and say. All those things calculates in people's mind as confidence.

All the tools you've learned, when applied correctly, gives you competence because it helps you gain experience. The problem is most men are really kind of lazy; "tell me the answer and I'll just go do it", so a lot of dating advice is packaged to sell to that mentality. Then guys get mad and say, "It's all rubbish" and then go look for the next package. No. Nothing is all rubbish. It's just you're applying it wrong because you don't have the experience or take the time to truly understand why each skill you've learned has an appropriate place in the dating and interaction process.

[Salaam]

I used to be a cocky person, but its a trait I no longer feel is necessary in my present interactions, unless its couched within humor, and sparingly at that. I feel that it alienates people to some degree and is not conducive to deep conversation. Also, there are enough things about me that show excellence and are therefore attractive, that would make it redundant.

I found that in the past, my cockiness would manifest when I wasn't really seeing the person I was talking to... probably too caught up in my own shit to really connect with meaningful conversation and the cockiness played a part in keeping the conversation surface level at best.

[Chaos]

I think, in the end, it all boils down to congruence. Cockiness is a really attractive trait as long as it's congruent with who you are. There is something about a person which is cocky beyond belief because he simply refuses to accept his own limits, even when everything seems against him. But it has to be real, it has to come from inside. A good example would be James Kirk in the new Star Trek movie, he's extremely cocky but he doesn't believe in "no win scenarios" so it comes out as something extremely attractive (for some women at least).

Cocky-funny on the other hand displays the opposite. I'm aware of my limitations and I'm ok with them, I don't care what you think and I'm able to make fun of myself or exaggerate so that both you and me can have a good laugh.

Whenever there's no real congruency between what the cocky part and the interior part, the illusion breaks down and little subcommunications give you away. In this specific example, I think, "I respond with some cocky bullshit basically trying to push her off but keep her interested.", she probably picked on that... the actual purpose behind the cocky behavior and obviously she disliked it because of the incongruent message, either you're sure you can get her and will then assume you'll get her, or you know you can get her but, since you're trying to push her off, you don't express it to avoid her for falling for you... because cocky people do not keep orbiters.

[Thor]

Cocky & Funny in my humble opinion was the remedy to give guys who lacked confidence in talking to women instant confidence. Unfortunately I spent hours upon hours of my life learning every single C&F line there was on the internet. It was mentally damaging for me because even when I was in an interaction with a girl I would hide behind C&F even when the girl liked me. Its something I need to unlearn.

Today I screwed up an interaction between myself and this american girl I met. Will write it up at some point so maybe others guys can learn from my mistakes.

[Chaos]

Thor, C&F, as with a lot of things isn't a set of lines that you learn... It's an attitude. All the lines in all the PUA forums have worked at some point because they were congruent, they were relevant and appropriate to that specific situation and that's why it worked...

When you try to fit the lines into ANY situations, sometimes going out of the way to say them then they fail miserably.

[Thor]

Thankyou Chaos I have to remind myself its an attitude not the lines

(05-28-2012 10:02 PM)Chaos Wrote:  Thor, C&F, as with a lot of things isn't a set of lines that you learn... It's an attitude. All the lines in all the PUA forums have worked at some point because they were congruent, they were relevant and appropriate to that specific situation and that's why it worked...

When you try to fit the lines into ANY situations, sometimes going out of the way to say them then they fail miserably.

[baller08]

Basically what Chaos is saying is, "Most guys get super lazy and try to learn a "system". So like a shitty carpenter who only looks for one tool and chooses a hammer and now everything looks like a nail. In much the same way, men learn C&F and use it on everything even when it's wholly inappropriate".

Is the hammer "useless"? Should you never use a hammer? Of course not. But you need the experience to know when to use a hammer and when to use something else....you know....like a screw driver.

[Creatine Dreams]

So I guess the key to not being a tool is to use the right tool.