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~~Reesays~~ · 03-17-2012 11:36 PM

(03-17-2012 11:11 PM)Mark Wrote: I think other guys are more attracted to Zyzz than girls are.

Men always assume that women find the same things attractive that we do (i.e., physical proportions, etc.). Can't tell you how many girls I've met who are grossed out by guys with big muscles.

Girls will say one thing but be attracted to another as well. As I said, usually a zyzz would be accepted on to the site but the reality is that he has been overdone and is an internet phenomenon. As a result he will see poor results.

Jon · (03-18-2012)

also, he's dead

Alvar · 03-18-2012 09:03 AM

I had to google this guy's name.
Nope, I didn't develop an instant "men-crush". Should I be worried? Wink

FirstAidKit · 03-18-2012 10:51 AM

I don't think Zyzz is enough of a phenomenon to be caught out on a dating site - I had to google him and didn't think he was all that.

I agree with Mark about the muscles thing, it's kind of a niche. I'd imagine he does well with girls who are really into working out, I personally find guys that buff to be a turn off physically but mentally as well - I imagine they're going to be obsessed with their image and their working out to the point they don't do much else.

My ideal body type could probably be described as 'snowboarder' - fit from sport rather than working out so much, not too bulky and sexy, sexy back muscles.

crazyhorse · 03-18-2012 11:09 AM

With muscles, it's all about proportions. Ever heared of the male shoulder to hip ratio? That's what you should aim for.

some muscle + low body fat=bingo!

usually if your muscles are well defined, you should be fine.

Also take up other sports besides lifting weights and these "bulky" issues will quickly dissapear.

side note: I actually think zyzz got ton of play from women. I really don't care about those few, who say "I don't like that physique". The majority will digg it.

Alvar · 03-18-2012 12:10 PM

(03-18-2012 11:09 AM)crazyhorse Wrote: side note: I actually think zyzz got ton of play from women. I really don't care about those few, who say "I don't like that physique". The majority will digg it.

Carzyhorse, maybe I'm reading too much from your post, but isn't this concern with the majority of women another form of obsession with validation from women? Even if only a small minority of women really dig this guy - or me or you, h(w)e could still have hundreds of them.

In my book, the important question is, did these muscles help him get enough girls that he really liked and made him happy?

crazyhorse · 03-18-2012 01:46 PM

(03-18-2012 12:10 PM)Alvar Wrote:
(03-18-2012 11:09 AM)crazyhorse Wrote: side note: I actually think zyzz got ton of play from women. I really don't care about those few, who say "I don't like that physique". The majority will digg it.

Carzyhorse, maybe I'm reading too much from your post, but isn't this concern with the majority of women another form of obsession with validation from women? Even if only a small minority of women really dig this guy - or me or you, h(w)e could still have hundreds of them.

In my book, the important question is, did these muscles help him get enough girls that he really liked and made him happy?

Well I guess Alvar, that in the end, we should try to be as happy as we possibly can. But nobody said anything about him not being happy. As with most guys, who's life got changed due to weigh lifting, he was pretty geeky before.

Just google "zyzz geek"

Please give me an example of something that is not seeking validation from women? Are you well dressed? Do you excercise regurarily? Sure you can say that you do these things for yourself, but don't compliments from other people make you feel better about yourself?. Where do you draw the line between enjoying your own piece of work (body, carreer) and enjoying the compliments and validation that you get from other people?

I'm really not a fan of this "don't seek validation" type of thinking, we all seek it. Off course, if it's your only motivation, well you're pretty needy. But the point reamains, we all love it.

this is what zyzz looked like:
http://www.tootoned.com/archives/588

I think I can safely say that he would get tons of play. I means just look at that body. If you don't believe me, you can always visit your closest Abercrombie & Fitch store.

Halo Effect · 03-18-2012 02:37 PM

I am sure that Zyzz would attract plenty of women, but women don't judge men the same way we judge women. For most women, the perfect body is LESS built than Zyzz's. Plenty of girls even like skinny guys. There are even women who like men with bellies... And then there are the women who just don't care much.

Being a body builder probably works well because a small percentage of women does like the excessive muscle, and those women will spot it instantly. Being a body builder is similar to being a surfer and walking around with your surf board 24/7, or a guitarist always having his guitar on him... Some girls dig surfers, but you can't usually spot what kind of hobbies someone has from the outside. But you can spot a body builder from a mile away, so the chicks who like that easily gravitate to them.

Alvar · 03-18-2012 03:14 PM

Crazyhorse, I'll elaborate later when I get to my pc but I just want to point out that the keyword from that quote of your post is "majority".

crazyhorse · 03-18-2012 04:48 PM

Alvar, I'm really not interested in a debate about what the majority of the women would find attractive. All I know is, is that his body is pretty impressive and I can imagine that a lot of women (sorry I used majority...) will find it very attractive.

These debates never really are productive, they usually end in what we already know "everybody is different and everybody prefers different things".

sorry I used the word "majority", I won't do it again Wink

.

Halo Effect · 03-18-2012 05:57 PM

Here's a poll about which body women liked the most. It's on the biggest Dutch forum, which has a lot of women as well. The poll had close to 200 voters. Note which type gets by far the most votes.

http://forum.fok.nl/topic/1777526/1/25

~~Reesays~~ · 03-18-2012 08:06 PM

OMG, you guys don't get it. The goal is to appeal to the majority. There are people out there that like all kinds of things, there are guys out there who prefer whales over fit model-like women but those guys are in the minority. Most guys will take the model like woman over the whale.

It isn't about individuality, if you are trying to date a lot of women, it is about appealing to the majority.

Halo Effect · 03-18-2012 08:11 PM

(03-18-2012 08:06 PM)Reesays Wrote: OMG, you guys don't get it. The goal is to appeal to the majority. There are people out there that like all kinds of things, there are guys out there who prefer whales over fit model-like women but those guys are in the minority. Most guys will take the model like woman over the whale.

It isn't about individuality, if you are trying to date a lot of women, it is about appealing to the majority.

Not true. Dating "a lot of women" means dozens or hundreds at most. With over 3 billion females in this world, you don't need to attract anywhere near the majority.

FirstAidKit · 03-18-2012 08:19 PM

I really don't think it is - I mean some things are obvious going to appeal to everyone (being in okay shape, decent hygiene etc) but dating is all about carving out your niche and maximising it. Someone like Zyzz is likely to get lots of interest from women really into their fitness and sports, but I doubt he'd have a high success rate with fashionable european women, for instance. If you try to appeal to the 'majority' you will probably not appeal to an individual as much. When you look for the sweet spot for what works for you and appeals to the people you want to attract you are going to get those people much more interested.

I'd take the recent overhaul of the site as a similar example - you want to specialise, not generalise

~~Reesays~~ · 03-18-2012 08:23 PM

When you want to have success it is good to appeal to the majority. We aren't talking about the world, we are talking about certain areas. A muscular (not juiced up) guy will appeal to most women across the world because it will show good health and that he is a good protector. Across the world such guys will win out over fatties, that is just face.

If you specialize, then you defeat the purpose of game. I think overall a man with true game should be able to adjust immediately and date all kinds of women, period.

crazyhorse · 03-18-2012 09:04 PM

Dammit, I knew I should have kept my mouth shut with my zyzz comment Big Grin

....

Zac · (03-19-2012)

Quote:OMG, you guys don't get it. The goal is to appeal to the majority.

I only want to appeal to a minority of girls. Those are the girls that I would like. To try to appeal to a majority seems extremely counterproductive and mostly impossible.

IdEngager · 03-18-2012 10:55 PM

I would think it's much more beneficial to appeal to a specific minority of women. I remember reading an OKCupid blog post detailing this for women, and I would think it would apply similarly to men. On a personal level, I have neither the time, money, nor stamina to see more than 2 or 3 women at once, and ideally I would just have one awesome one at a time. There are 3 billion women in the world, and last I checked, 1 out of 3 billion is a pretty small percentage. Why appeal to them all when I can go straight to the ones I want?

Tim · 03-18-2012 11:03 PM

(03-17-2012 11:11 PM)Mark Wrote: I think other guys are more attracted to Zyzz than girls are.

Haha, yup definitely.

That poll that Halo Effect linked to is really helpful for giving guys a more accurate picture of what girls are actually attracted to. I've seen so many like it before, and they all say the same thing; a slim to medium build with 8-12% body fat is the most attractive type. If you're worried about appealing to the 'majority' of women, aim for that.

The thing is, a body type like Zyzz's is extreme, and extremes are always going to be noticeable because... they're extreme.

This is a huge part of dating in general; if you don't look closely it seems like the majority of girls are sluts, that the majority of guys are miserable AFCs, etc etc. But if you open your eyes a bit, you soon realize that the majority of girls don't have that many sexual partners in a life time, and that a small minority skew it. Or that most guys are actually pretty happy with a lay every now and then, plus a few solid relationships over their lifetime, and that there are other parts of their life they consider to be more worthwhile of spending their time worrying about.

Mark had an article on the old site called 'the silent majority' which went into detail on this. Mark; I suggest you rewrite it, because I remember it was pretty transformative for me when I read it.

Anyway, going to back to worrying about what body type is most attractive; it doesn't really matter. Your genetics are going to have such a big say in it, it'd take you years to become anywhere near as bulky as Zyzz if that's not your natural body type. In that time there are so many other things you can work on to make yourself more attractive to women.

Yeah you should stay healthy, work out, and try to get a more muscular frame. These things will all help you. But worrying about looking like Zyzz is a huge waste of time, and will undo much of the benefits of the aforementioned things.

Alvar · 03-18-2012 11:16 PM

(03-18-2012 08:23 PM)Reesays Wrote: When you want to have success it is good to appeal to the majority. We aren't talking about the world, we are talking about certain areas.

Well, Brad Pitt appeals to way, way more women than Mark.

But who gets more girls? Wink

(It doesn't really matter, both get plenty of opportunities.)

IdEngager · (03-18-2012)

I like how we've spent the majority of this thread arguing the sexual appeal of a dead, steroid using, cocaine addict.

***Mark*** · 03-19-2012 03:48 PM

(03-18-2012 09:49 PM)Zac Wrote:
Quote:OMG, you guys don't get it. The goal is to appeal to the majority.

I only want to appeal to a minority of girls. Those are the girls that I would like. To try to appeal to a majority seems extremely counterproductive and mostly impossible.

This.

Leo · 03-19-2012 03:56 PM

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_paralysis

FirstAidKit · 03-19-2012 06:04 PM

Also, the majority like Coldplay, The X Factor, and Ed Hardy. fuck the majority. Go for the exceptional.

***Mark*** · 03-19-2012 07:52 PM

One thing I think a lot of people miss about Zyzz is that he displayed charisma, a good sense of humor, strong self-awareness, and even self-mockery. In a lot of his videos of him running around without a shirt on, he's making fun of himself, and the stereotype of big-muscled guys. This is actually really attractive behavior. I've seen plenty of body-builder type guys with muscles like his standing around clubs by themselves. I see it every night. Most of them can't hold a girl's attention for more than 10 seconds.

If you look around the internet, there are 1,000+ guys with bodies like Zyzz's all trying to make it in the fitness industry or with webpages dedicated to fitness. Why did Zyzz get such a massive following so quickly? His quirky personality. His funny pictures. His ridiculous videos. Dan, the guy who wrote some fitness articles here on PM, is a competitive power-lifter and amateur bodybuilder -- two things Zyzz never was. Yet, Dan is struggling to get a website and following going in the fitness industry.

Like I said, guys over-estimate the importance of physical dimensions and therefore get a hard-on for guys like this. I think looking like that is overrated. One of my best friends has a body similar to Zyzz's (minus tattoos and maybe 10 pounds lighter). He gets a lot of looks, but in the end I get laid more than he does, by quite a bit.

So appealing to the majority of girls is overrated as well. There's a saying in sales/marketing: trying to sell to everybody means selling to nobody. If you try to appeal to everyone, then no one is going to feel that invested in you. The goal is to find your particular niche and dominate it. There is no shortage of women on this planet. Why would I waste my time trying to appeal to all of them? I'd rather find the one's I like and appeal to them.

Reesays, I think this is just another example of your blanket approach to thinking about this stuff. Just because some Indian men are at a disadvantage in some situations does not mean all Indian men are at a disadvantage in all situations. Just because a guy like Zyzz has advantages in some situations does not mean he has an advantage in all of them. Beauty and attraction are not monolithic all-or-nothing things. They're complicated and vary from person to person, culture to culture.

Postmasculine