Anti-pua attitude - good or bad?

[Peanut]

(03-13-2012 02:25 PM)Mark Wrote:  Either way, I find it kind of stupid that we're discussing this.

Is it? "The Game" and PUA in general messes up the way a lot of people see the world (it most certainly did for me) and I think trying to bring a sense of realism back to that isn't stupid.

Maybe the way I am explaining my pov isn't great, but I think the discussion itself has a lot of value.

[Mark]

I think you over-estimate how much PUA "screws" people up. I used to have a post on my old site called "The Silent Majority." Market research of PUA readers shows that 90% of them are gone within six months, and usually it's because they got one minor problem solved -- how to approach, get a date, learn a few lines, whatever.

The guys who get sucked into it and adopt it as an identity, who obsess over which PUA coach is fucking who (ahem, which you're still doing), who get a hard on having theory arguments instead of actually living their lives -- these guys are a loud minority. And just because you and I were part of it doesn't mean it's common. And the fact of the matter is that guys who fall into the loud minority are generally low self-esteem guys who are desperately seeking a way to express their masculinity anyway, so whether it's PUA or furries conventions or something, chances are that expression was never going to be entirely healthy, no matter how it came out. If I never found PUA, I'd probably be some weirdo on AdultFriendFinder every day or something. At least PUA gave me a vehicle to improve myself and inspired me to fix my self-esteem issues.

There's a chicken and egg quality to the hardcore PUA community: is PUA screwed up because it attracts guys with emotional problems, or does PUA screw guys up and give them emotional problems? I would argue it's a little of both, but mostly the former. PUA can certainly make a guy's situation worse, but I think the opposite is more common.

Guys who exit the community often do it bitterly because the emotional issues and self-worth issues they needed to work on were mostly fixed and they then come to their senses and realize how toxic a lot of the belief patterns they had adopted actually are. BUT the PUA community must be given credit for indirectly getting them to that place. I do agree with you that there is a shorter and healthier way to get the desired result, but PUA does eventually get many men there, even if it's on accident, including just about every guy posting on this forum.

That's why I said at the end of my article "My Life as a Pick Up Artist," that the PUA community can be helpful, just make sure you leave it at some point.

But to answer your question, no, there's nothing stupid about bringing a sense of realism to people who have bought into a lot of PUA myths. What is stupid is talking about who PUA coaches are fucking and why they're fucking them. Talk about a small and meaningless sample size. Talk about a fucking kindergarten-degree of simplification (oh, he was rich, that doesn't count). Really? If you want to get serious about the realism of attraction, then be serious. Stop being a voyeur, stop dealing with laughable sample sizes, and stop whitewashing people's nuanced and intimate experiences because "oh, he has money, it doesn't count."

If you're serious about this, then start being serious. Open your mind a little more.

[Chaos]

I completely agree. Funny enough I wrote this today to a friend I keep in touch via facebook (he's from the US):

Quote:Anyway I'm pretty confy right now and basically just enjoying life and women whenever they are around... which is nice for a change... this whole game thing had the unppleasant side effect of making me completely obsessed with women and pickup for some time, luckily that's in the past now.

[Mark]

And for what it's worth, I hung out with Yad in London a couple years ago. The guy is solid as shit, and yes, fat and ugly. I can't imagine him getting rejected 100 times in a row for anything, much less 10. If you hung out with him, you'd immediately know why women love him. And yes, it has everything to do with his personality. There's an aspect to him that does not come across on camera at all. Which raises another point: don't think you know anything about these guys until you've met them in the flesh. As much as I dislike Neil's teaching, I never say anything bad about his game or his results. Why? Because I've never met him. You just don't know anything until you've hung out with the guy as a peer.

[Peanut]

(03-13-2012 03:26 PM)Mark Wrote:  Guys who exit the community often do it bitterly because the emotional issues and self-worth issues they needed to work on were mostly fixed and they then come to their senses and realize how toxic a lot of the belief patterns they had adopted actually are. BUT the PUA community must be given credit for indirectly getting them to that place. I do agree with you that there is a shorter and healthier way to get the desired result, but PUA does eventually get many men there, even if it's on accident, including just about every guy posting on this forum.

I agree with that. I guess I shouldn't be so quick to call it a scam entirely but I did say that Yad guy seemed all right to me (which, in my world, if I say that about a PUA type means I think he's awesome). It's not true you can't pick up his vibe through the screen and it's clear there is a reason why women like that guy, no doubt.

I still think that PUA as a whole is harmful, though. For men who are reasonably normal but have bad luck, some sticking points or other minor issues it can help and they will not get sucked into it. It will help them fix their minor issues. On the other side, people with major issues like extreme insecurity or who are otherwise disturbed who get into PUA will most likely not exit the community within six months and will probably become even more unhinged from reality than they already were. I personally would've benefited a lot more from professional therapy at the point I got into PUA because the core issue was never being bad with women but rather a few major character flaws (which led to me not sleeping with women) which PUA didn't help fix in the slightest.

[Zac]

Bad/Good If PUA didn't exist would any of us be here right now?

[Leo]

Yep! Fat and ugly.
http://www.puatraining.com/puablog/2009/...eo-by-yad/

[Mark]

(03-13-2012 04:24 PM)Peanut Wrote:  

(03-13-2012 03:26 PM)Mark Wrote:  Guys who exit the community often do it bitterly because the emotional issues and self-worth issues they needed to work on were mostly fixed and they then come to their senses and realize how toxic a lot of the belief patterns they had adopted actually are. BUT the PUA community must be given credit for indirectly getting them to that place. I do agree with you that there is a shorter and healthier way to get the desired result, but PUA does eventually get many men there, even if it's on accident, including just about every guy posting on this forum.

I agree with that. I guess I shouldn't be so quick to call it a scam entirely but I did say that Yad guy seemed all right to me (which, in my world, if I say that about a PUA type means I think he's awesome). It's not true you can't pick up his vibe through the screen and it's clear there is a reason why women like that guy, no doubt.

I still think that PUA as a whole is harmful, though. For men who are reasonably normal but have bad luck, some sticking points or other minor issues it can help and they will not get sucked into it. It will help them fix their minor issues. On the other side, people with major issues like extreme insecurity or who are otherwise disturbed who get into PUA will most likely not exit the community within six months and will probably become even more unhinged from reality than they already were. I personally would've benefited a lot more from professional therapy at the point I got into PUA because the core issue was never being bad with women but rather a few major character flaws (which led to me not sleeping with women) which PUA didn't help fix in the slightest.

Yes, I agree. And this is kind of what that Rawness article said. Guys who already have a strong self-worth and sense of identity, pick and choose a couple ideas and then are gone. But guys who already have some self-esteem issues and co-dependency issues get sucked in and if they aren't careful (or are unlucky), their situation can be made worse.

But yeah, my guess is that anywhere from 1/3 to 1/2 of PUA's would be better off with some therapy and just making new friends.

When I look back at my own development, the most useful things for me were (in order):

1) Therapy (various kinds)
2) My girlfriend
3) Coaching and teaching others
4) Going out and approaching 2,000 sets (i.e., the PUA experience)
5) Traveling abroad

For me in particular, PUA unleashed a lot of unhealthy and toxic beliefs that were kind of already buried in me. I had a lot of anger and resentment from my family situation and my ex-girlfriend, and PUA just kind of exposed that and gave it light. I don't think it indoctrinated me with anything new and unhealthy. I never liked routines. And I never really bought into RSD's bullshit. So I think in the end, even though it took a while, I came out fairly unscathed.

[Peanut]

(03-13-2012 04:32 PM)Zac Wrote:  Bad/Good If PUA didn't exist would any of us be here right now?

No, but that's just because Mark isn't marketing to other audiences yet

[Chaos]

(03-14-2012 01:01 PM)Peanut Wrote:  No, but that's just because Mark isn't marketing to other audiences yet

I don't think that's even possible. I'm here because I perceive honesty in what Marks sells. If you've seen some marketing techniques of other guys out there (almost every other guy out there) you'll see every dirty marketing trick played out...

Long pages telling you what you'll get plus a handful of "bonus content" just thrown out in this "unrepeatable opportunity" that will "only be available for the next 3 days" which "is worth 1499$" but right now as a matter of an eventual madness I'm giving away for just "79$" for a limited time. This is a limited offer that "you won't be seeing again because this is a limited one time offer" ... And most of the people that are just beginning with this want a quick step by step guide to lay women (myself included). Somehow they don't wanna hear the truth, that there is not such thing and that some women are just out of your reach no matter what... and to sell most of those, you need to promise what you can't possibly give them... (or brainwash them as some company I won't mention )

I actually have several mails with the same "one time offer" from some of these guys. I'm convinced some of this works for some, but, in addition to being more than morally questionable (if not plain wrong), I'm sure in the end this will result in just a short-term success. I've actually fall for some in the past, only to never buy from them again... while so far I've bought every product Mark has gotten out and I'm still waiting for that "The Cube inside-out manual" which has been mentioned in other thread .

By the way Mark, another thing that really works (you're doing it great but just so that you keep it that way if this grows) is great support desk for bought products. Not nice, not fair, just great. Both you and the only other company I buy from nowadays (Christian Hudson) have excelled at consumer support. (Completely unrelated to the thread topic, I know)

[Peanut]

(03-14-2012 01:30 PM)Chaos Wrote:  

(03-14-2012 01:01 PM)Peanut Wrote:  No, but that's just because Mark isn't marketing to other audiences yet

I don't think that's even possible. I'm here because I perceive honesty in what Marks sells. If you've seen some marketing techniques of other guys out there (almost every other guy out there) you'll see every dirty marketing trick played out...

So due to your experience with PUA (gurus) and their styles you now think that "marketing" is basically a bag of dirty tricks.

I find Mark's product/competences to be far more similar to something like, for example Men's health (but then not as lame and superficial) than it is to Mystery Method or RSD or any kind of PUA crap. PUA has a tiny audience, while the audience of men who are looking for self-development, inner peace and identity is absolutely huge. Marketing, among other things, is about finding the audiences which are attracted to your core product and then making it clear to them that they want to use/buy it in a clear and attractive fashion that catches their attention (if you already have a product that you need to sell, otherwise it is better to find an audience and then think of a product).

In the case of PUA, it has everything to do with misrepresenting the product and its effects. This is called scamming (or maybe sales at best), not marketing.

[Chaos]

(03-14-2012 01:39 PM)Peanut Wrote:  So due to your experience with PUA (gurus) and their styles you now think that "marketing" is basically a bag of dirty tricks.

I find Mark's product/competences to be far more similar to something like, for example Men's health (but then not as lame and superficial) than it is to Mystery Method or RSD or any kind of PUA crap. PUA has a tiny audience, while the audience of men who are looking for self-development, inner peace and identity is absolutely huge. Marketing, among other things, is about finding the audiences which are attracted to your core product and then making it clear to them that they want to use/buy it in a clear and attractive fashion that catches their attention (if you already have a product that you need to sell, otherwise it is better to find an audience and then think of a product).

In the case of PUA, it has everything to do with misrepresenting the product and its effects. This is called scamming (or maybe sales at best), not marketing.

Fair enough if you put it that way. Let's reframe, I meant I don't think he will actually reach the people that usually buys Mistery or RSD products (except for rebounds, we've have a few in this forum).

[elderado]

(03-13-2012 03:26 PM)Mark Wrote:  I think you over-estimate how much PUA "screws" people up. I used to have a post on my old site called "The Silent Majority." Market research of PUA readers shows that 90% of them are gone within six months, and usually it's because they got one minor problem solved -- how to approach, get a date, learn a few lines, whatever.

Where is that article? That was probably the first article I read from you

[Mark]

About half of it was added to this article: http://postmasculine.com/pickup-artist

The other half was chucked.