A question for Mark

[juggernaut92]

So I just to ask a question. I am in no way really good with women and it will take time before I get there but I was just wondering if it is true that you always have to be doing this stuff and if you dont then you start backsliding?

Like for example, you said you use to be in a long term relationship. Right after you got out of that relationship, were you still really good with women or did your skills fade away? Like did you have to work back up to being good with women or do you believe that you always have those skills?

[Jon]

I'm not as experienced as mark, but here's what I think:

you will get rusty, but its not like you are back to square one. The first night out after a relationship of some duration is ROUGH, but not as bad or in the same way as just starting out. It's more like "what the fuck is wrong with me, I know how to do this" and within a few weeks you can bounce back to where you were. I actually found that after taking a break because of a relationship or whatever, you can come back stronger in the long term. Like I had some trouble for a few weeeks last time I dated a girl (for like 4 months), but once I got back into it, I found I was having an easier time in some areas I previously struggled with.

[Mark]

What Jon said.

It's like anything else. You get rusty, but it comes back much, much quicker the second time. For instance, I haven't played guitar in about six months. The first day I play, I will be OK, but not nearly as good as I was. But instead of requiring months of practice again to get back to where I was, it will probably only take a few days or a week at the most.

[baller08]

I have a much different view on this topic. I think it's a very bad mindset to think that when you're in a relationship you'll somehow stop being an attractive man. That is why so many guys get broken up with and don't know why.

Put it this way, when it is ok for your long term girlfriend to gain 50lbs? If it's not ok for her to be unattractive, why is it ok for you?

Obviously some portion of your pick up skills may be less in use (ie: getting dates) but your social skills shouldn't. Your girlfriend or wife will still constantly measure other women's attraction towards you. You should still be the kind of man she is proud to be with because she senses that other women would date you.

So for me personally, it is even more important that I continue to be "good with women" in a long term relationship. Being an attractive man is not something you turn on and off depending on your relationship status...very poor thought process.

[Jon]

I agree that maintaining a social and otherwise attractive lifestyle is important in a relationship - but there's just no way, unless your job is a pick up coach and you are demoing on bootcamps every weekend, that you are going to maintain a lifestyle of talking to random new women on a regular basis while in a relationship. That's the area that gets rusty.

[baller08]

When you get to a certain point in your development, maintaining that mindset doesn't take a big effort like running a bootcamp.

When you're out with friends as a group, you still talk to women in your social circle and promote interesting conversation. You still bring interesting topics to a group...like what you would use as an opener.

You still talk to waitresses and bartenders. You and your girlfriend are around people all the time. Every time men check your girlfriend out because she has maintained her attractiveness, you get a little reminder that she has value. When does she get a reminder that you have value? (From a core attraction point of view, I'm not saying being a good boyfriend in other areas of the relationship has no value of course).

There are many ways to maintain your skills. And above all else, you should still be trying to seduce your girlfriend or wife on a consistent basis by bringing in new things into your relationship as you would if you were still on the pick up scene.

My point is...if you feel rusty after a relationship, chances are the same drivers that led you to be lazy probably had a contributing factor in your relationship ending if you really think about it.

[Jon]

Ok baller now I'm gonna have to call BS, none of what you just said makes any sense


1) You said

Quote: My point is...if you feel rusty after a relationship, chances are the same drivers that led you to be lazy probably had a contributing factor in your relationship ending if you really think about it.

No, I broke up with my last girlfriend because of her anger management problems. Nothing to do with my ability to pick up women. I got sick of her BS.

2) you said

Quote:And above all else, you should still be trying to seduce your girlfriend or wife on a consistent basis by bringing in new things into your relationship as you would if you were still on the pick up scene.

But the things I do with a girlfriend (never been married) to keep things interesting are very different than the things I would do with a girl I just met. There's shit I can do with a girlfriend that would come off as insanely over-aggressive with a woman I just met. For instance, I can surprise my girlfriend in the shower. Not a cool thing to do on a first date. I can grab her and throw her on the bed without warning - again, not cool on a first date. With my girlfriend, I know she wants to fuck me, so really, it's not practice for interacting with a girl who may or may not want to fuck me.

3)

Quote:When you're out with friends as a group, you still talk to women in your social circle and promote interesting conversation. You still bring interesting topics to a group...like what you would use as an opener.

except the problem is never actually coming up with an opener. The problem is having the guts to open your mouth, and being used to the social pressure. I feel no social pressure among friends, and very little with new women in my social circle. Totally different with randoms at a bar or on the street


4)

Quote: You still talk to waitresses and bartenders.

YMMV but talking to people who are paid to be nice is not in any way useful for me in terms of talking to random girls.

[Zac]

I feel like i can speak on this because I'm going to be in this situation very soon and I can already kind of tell how this is going to go down.

Lucky for me I'm not getting dumped but I know I'm going to end up out of a relationship more than likely.

Brag alert, When I'm doing my thing out in public girls usually dig me even if mostly my anxiety has stopped me from taking advantage of it. They seem to dig me even more now that I have a girlfriend and my confidence is way up there. Girls will probably always dig me as long as I keep being myself. That being said I know that when I become single soon I will probably (not positively but probably) have problems with these areas at least for the first few days or weeks.

1. Anxiety: Forget about heartbreak (I'll have that) and being dumped (I'm not) for a second. I am now used to someone I care about. I know that being with another girl after being so used to the same one will give me a lot of anxiety. No matter how cute or cool she is I'm SURE my ex gf will be slightly in my head for whatever reason. This anxiety will probably lead to problems with things like:

2. Sexual escalation: It's been over 6 months since I sexually escalated a girl that wasn't my girlfriend. It's not something I'm used to doing. I know I will get back on the horse pretty quickly but just talking to some random girl and really going after it will not be something I will be used to off the bat. I'm used to sexually escalating the shit out of my girlfriend obviously, but these things don't completely transfer over (ie: anxiety)

3. Having any interest in gaming: If you just got dumped, chances are you REALLY aren't super ready to be out there trying to have good healthy interactions with other people. You probably need time to yourself. I'm not getting dumped but I have serious doubts of how interested off the bat after ending my relationship I will be with girls in general. That's just my personal nature though. I'm sure after some time that will change but emotional wounds aren't healed by gratuitous sexual interactions very often.

4. Approach anxiety: This may go with anxiety or caring about gaming but I think it deserves it's own section. I have had conversations with many hot girls, not hot girls, guys, grandmas, ect. I have no "approach anxiety" or "social anxiety" when it comes to those things. When it comes to approaching a girl for sex though I'm pretty sure that's a whole different animal that I haven't been "keeping myself sharp" on and could not have without not being a faithful boyfriend.

All of this being said, I'm sure it's like what Mark said. I don't have to go back to square 1 but I'm not going to be 100% "myself" or on my "A" game for a while and it's pretty easy to see why.

[juggernaut92]

@jon: yes that is the way I thought about it. Its just one article I read by mark made it seem like he could turn on his skills with women like a light switch lol. I kinda made my own conclusion by the wording but yeah this makes sense.
@mark: That makes sense.
@baller: How do you continue to be "good with women"? Are you talking about your mannerisms and how you behave around women?
@zac: Thanks. Good post.

[CharlesB]

Ι 've been in this situation- flirting while being in a relationship- ,and I believe the real reason people do it , is not to keep their skills but just validation . Like women most of us , we are validation junkies .
And these are two completely different dynamics : keeping a relationship interesting and meeting a new girl . When they get confused and treated with the same behavior , things turn awkward really fast.

[SeXyBaCk]

Hmm, I've had this quite a bit. I've got no theory on it though...just first hand experience how it's been for me.

First off, it seems logical to me that the amount of time spent "out-of-action" is crucial, 5 months isn't 5 years or 30 years. My dad couldn't pick up a hooker if he tried. That goes without saying.

I've been in 2 longish relationships (>2 years), in one of which my "womanising" (as she put it) during our initial dating and getting to know each other process caused various trust issues with her (and ultimately sabotaged the whole relationship)... in response to which I took great caution not to flirt with other women, because I really liked the lady i was with. I felt like I was going out of my way not to attract the interest of women or put myself in situations where stuff could happen.

Coming out of that ... because significant time had passed I was thinking to myself I really don't have a clue anymore about how this whole dating process is supposed to work. I felt clueless. I couldn't imagine in my head the situation where I'm coveying my interest to a woman without embarrassing myself or getting shut down hard. Sitting at home it might feel daunting. However... all it really takes for me is going out with some friends and one accidental encounter. Some woman hitting on me. Then, supported by ethanol induced euthoria i approach some girl cause she's wearing something i like or whatever (can be totally meaningless and I don't even have to be physically attracted to her) and right away I feel my mojo is coming back to me. It's like "oh yeah...back on the prowl daddy". This isn't hard at all. And hitting on women is f****** ace. I know I'm good at this. I'm so good at it it gives me grief at times. It's like riding a bike, wobbly at first but as soon as you're on your bike you're already down the road, back in the saddle. I've used the "I've just come out of a long relationship - I'm rusty" as an excuse to my advantage as well. All in all it's a very positive, liberating, rejuvenating feeling.

I don't regard how I interact with women as a skillset, that need to be honed and rehearsed. I feel who I am is attractive. Maybe I need a wardrobe overhaul or need to get out more or exercise more and just generally put myself out there again to meet women after coming out of a relationship but I know exactly who I am with women and how to get in their pants.

I'd be interested to hear from someone who had approach anxiety, overcame it, got into a long relationship and is now back out on the hunt.

[baller08]

Jon - I wasn't referring specifically to your relationship. Obviously if you broke up with her it has nothing to do with this topic. But I've seen, more often than not, guys who think that once they have a girlfriend, they're "done". You kind of see it here in these forums, "I just want a girlfriend, is that too much to ask?" type of thing.

Most men never get to the point where being an attractive man is simply "being". Much of what Sexyback was saying in the post above. It's not a trigger to flip.

Now I get what you're saying that there are some details you can do with a girlfriend that you can't do with a girl who you've just met. But that's not what I'm referring to. What I'm referring to is the question juggernaut asked me:

Quote:How do you continue to be "good with women"? Are you talking about your mannerisms and how you behave around women?

I continue to be "good with women" because I'm dating....A WOMAN! This is what I mean. Men all of a sudden forget that their girlfriend or wife is just like any woman they were trying to have sex with when they were single. Being attractive is being attractive...there shouldn't be a distinction when you're in a relationship.

I used to have this problem so I completely understand what you guys are coming from. I solved it when I finally looked at it from a woman's perspective.

So let's say I'm with a woman for 3 years, let's say that she has kept in shape, remained sweet, caring, continued to work on her personality during our relationship. Now let's say for whatever reason we broke up. Will she have trouble dating again? Mentally probably because most women aren't wired to just jump right into bed with the first guy that shows her attention, especially if she is still mouring the relationship. HOWEVER, will any man not find her attractive? Of course not. Because she is still attractive as a woman. She was attractive to me and she'll be attractive to men in general because she can't flip off her attraction....either she's hot or she's not.

When I started to look at how simple it was from a woman's perspective, it helped me a lot to understand what I needed to do. I have high standards for women that I date, especially long term. I don't accept them gaining a lot of weight or starting to just be in sweats all the time. I don't accept them not treating me with the same consideration they did in the beginning when they were trying to get me to want to be in a relationship with them.

So because I don't allow them to slide on keeping up their attractiveness, I don't slide on my responsibilities either in that area. Once I stopped thinking, "I'm in a relationship I can relax now", I stopped having the problems raised in this thread. It took me awhile to kind of get this, but like anything else once you see it, its no longer a big issue.

[playmaker001]

@Baller: you're not talking bout shit

[baller08]

(04-26-2012 08:26 PM)playmaker001 Wrote:  @Baller: you're not talking bout shit

Cool.

[juggernaut92]

@charles: that is an interesting point. Everyone does like validation that is for sure.
@sexyback: I like what you said about who you are is attractive and that does make sense.
@baller: I kind of see what you are saying. I have never been in a relationship so I will probably see what you mean later down the road