A girl friend of mine has started reading Roosh

[IdEngager]

It's pretty interesting to get people's reactions when they first reach that site. I've tried to explain how he's quite possibly a misanthrope and is usually trying to get a rise out of people, but over the last two days she can't stop reading. Some of her reaction:

Quote:dude ive been reading this roosh guy's site.
he's so harsh.
but i feel like a lot of guys have adopted his "game"
like ive talked to guys who always answer in a "gray" manner, trying to be like all ~mysterious~

At this point I interject how there's some level of self-selection for people who react to that

i agree. if you're outgoing and always seem to get what you want, being all gray and mysterious when talking to the opposite sex would work.
like when i asked this go-go dancer at the abbey if he was gay
he wouldn't give me a straight answer, no pun intended
but you know what bugged me about the roosh site
when he said "girls think that if they are witty and have a good job they are somehow a catch"
um, do guys not really give a fuck about a girl being funny and having a good job + education?
because ive dated guys, and after we break up, they start dating other girls who......um, are way less educated, good looking, and cool than me.

Should I just send her to PostMasculine for a better side of men's dating advice?

[Tim]

IMO we need more women. Tell her to come on over.

[Matt T]

Well, honestly I'd rather have a decent-looking girl that was a total airhead than a morbidly obese Nobel Prize Winner.

[IdEngager]

(03-15-2012 05:10 AM)Matt T Wrote:  Well, honestly I'd rather have a decent-looking girl that was a total airhead than a morbidly obese Nobel Prize Winner.

Is that Nobel Prize winner also rich? I may have to reconsider.

[Matt T]

(03-15-2012 05:32 AM)IdEngager Wrote:  Is that Nobel Prize winner also rich? I may have to reconsider.

Who cares if she's rich? You'll be spending all her money on booze anyways, since you'll need beer goggles to get it up for that.

[Chaos]

That's not a fair comparison.

The real question is if you would rather have a nobel prize decently looking girl, cute but a little overweight or an ultra hot model, not stupid by any means, but not precisely bright neither.

[Jani]

Why not both?!

It depends what your purpose is;
fuckbuddy = hot model
girlfriend = nobel prize girl

[Reesays]

Save her before it is too late. That guy is a scumbag and a bad example of PUA. He has to go to Third World Countries to get laid by women (most likely escorts) and has failed to get laid in Denmark. Rather than accepting that he just lacks game, looks, and life experience to be a Hugh Hefner he spends his blog posts

1. Typing up misogynistic posts about women
2. Posting dumb crap about how rich guys have it bad with women just so he can make himself feel good about being broke
3. Putting up a "race ladder" as an excuse to why he cannot get laid in countries, "oh it must be because I don't have blonde hair and blue eyes", idiot made me a bit insecure with his posts too
4. Complaining about American women and how he cannot get any who are higher than a 5, well Mr Racist Turk, it must be because you aren't higher than a 5 yourself and you have absolutely nothing going for you in life
5. Promoting his low quality books


I quit from his forum (used to be well liked there too) because

1. He banned ANYONE that questioned his blog posts, automatically labeled them as troll and banned them
2. All of the "elite" members on there were scumbags who lied, made alternate accounts, and did all of that to portray to the world how good they are with women, if you have to excessively brag about it online, then you suck with women
3. Race thread after race thread after race thread by Black guys wondering where they can get laid, the second an Asian or Indian posted a race thread, BAN! I posted one and he warned me

That guy is poison. There are some decent PUAs out there but reality is if you are not successful, good looking (maximizing your looks), and worth something (rich or talented), then you are not going to regularly nail really good looking women. That guy is full of crap, too many loopholes in his post, and anyone who likes him needs help immediately.

If he is reading this, I am willing to challenge him to a debate anytime he wants. Reality is, he is too scared to come out and debate like a man without holding the power on his sad little message board.

What I laughed at the most was when he put Middle Eastern men above Black and Latino men on his "totem pole", sorry guy, you missed with that one!

[Chaos]

(03-15-2012 01:16 PM)Reesays Wrote:  2. Posting dumb crap about how rich guys have it bad with women just so he can make himself feel good about being broke
3. Putting up a "race ladder" as an excuse to why he cannot get laid in countries, "oh it must be because I don't have blonde hair and blue eyes", idiot made me a bit insecure with his posts too

Reesay, I can't believe you, of all people, are criticizing that!!! Not that you're wrong but... I only hope that just by writing it you realize the incoherence on every fucking race thread you start...

[Traindom]

I agree with Reesays's post (ಠ▃ಠ) but the last comment kind of undoes the entire post, in my opinion. It sounds like you're disagree with his version of a totem pole and the idea of a totem pole, yet you aren't denying that there are "better" races.

I have to say, I am taken back by this seemingly sudden enlightenment. Have you been reading Mark's stuff a lot?

[Reesays]

I started caring more about race after reading that guy's posts and posting on his forum.

As for the last part, okay lets be realistic here, he made it seem like men from his background are superior to all except for White guys, which he made the top just so he can have White users (who make up the majority on the internet) agree with him. Really, the whole idea of a "totem pole" is idiotic regardless but if you are gonna do it, do it right. Reality is, Black guys and Latin guys are more promoted in the west and for him to say stupid stuff like "oh its only because of MTV" just threw a lot of people off. Fact is, your average American woman numerically will find a Black or Latino guy more attractive than an Arabic guy, doesn't mean an Arabic guy has to give up all hope, just means generalizations which he got incorrect.

He said he went around surveying people for his totem pole post, I am doubtful of that.

Overall it is up to the individual to make themselves the best they can be and work with what they have. Though hair color, eye color, and skin color matter and play a role, they are minimal in stopping a guy from getting laid and in most cases should not play a role (unless we are talking really backward areas).

Thing is, with that post and on his forum, he has basically promoted the ideal that guys with Blonde hair and blue eyes are equivalent of saints while all minorities are screwed thus promoting racially insecure people throughout the internet. You think this place is bad? go to forum bodybuilding some time, ugh.


That post of his did not even bother me that much, the one about rich guys not getting laid made him lose all credibility in my eyes.

Gist of it all, race thread or whatever, bad posts or whatever, the guy has no credibility. He is not an accredited PUA, he goes around third world countries to find love, and every post he is on about American women being this and that. His posters even BS more than anyone, one elite member on there asked me for a spare email address or account so he can create a new account and act like someone else. Those guys are so pathetic.

Ya thats right, I haven't been casanova myself but I am not gonna stoop that low and be something I am not on the internet.

---

In fact, one member I know on a thread on there was banned because of this reason alone. Poster on there named "MiXX" said Puerto Rican women do not like Arabic and Indian guys, he posted a pic of himself kissing a Puerto Rican girl. Guy went Bananas and because he was elite he had the member banned.

I put up some pics too but was "warned".

By the way, they do not allow women on their forums, let your girl friend know that.

[FirstAidKit]

Oh man I had a pretty similar reaction when I stumbled across Roosh and Roissy, and it also made me paranoid about men for a while. I don't go on those site anymore and realise that I know tons of guys who are not like that at all. It also helped me to think that before you follow advice you should look at who's giving it - roosh (from what I've seen) basically has no friends or hobbies outside striving to get laid. Mark seems in much better shape mentally.

(Other advice/sex/dating things I follow advice from include are Captain Awkward and The Pervocracy


That said, while I think roosh is a terrible person, his advice isn't all disgraceful - he makes a big point of improving yourself to be the best you can or gaming in environments that are good for you. It's just a shame everything else is so poisonous...

[Mark]

Ugh... Roosh. The guy gives decent pick up advice every once in a while, and I actually really enjoy his descriptions of countries and cultures (when he's not hating on the women). But the dude comes across as the most lonely, angry, bitter guy in the world. I've read his stuff on and off for a few years now, and never once have I ever seen him mention:

- A positive relationship with a girl that didn't involve sex.
- Qualities he loves and appreciates about women that doesn't involve sex or their physical appearance.
- Deep, long-lasting friendships or amazing experiences he's had with other people.

In the same way this forum gets a lot of RSD refugees, I've gotten a number of female Roosh/Roissy refugees like FirstAid, but usually they contact me through email. And usually they want assurance that not all men are like that and that there is hope, haha...

The only thing that bums me out about those guys is how many fucking readers they get. Both of them get probably four or five times the amount of readers I do. Granted, they've both been blogging for about twice as long, but still, it's prety disheartening to see such angry and misogynistic posts garner 200+ comments.

[Reesays]

Provocative material will always get more viewers and readers, and the racist misogynistic sultan provides just that. If I posted things about women being sl*ts and some races having it easier than the others, I will get more viewers. On the Misc (forum Bodybuilding), there were multiple threads about his Totem Pole of Attractiveness. One thread caused a 20 page debate. That is how and a variety of other users, mainly Asians with low self esteem even heard of that site to begin with.

Justin Bieber has done better on the charts than Nas, doesn't make him the better artist.

See you have White Knights and Black Knights. White Knights are the "nice guys" who try to fulfill a woman's need, these are friendzone material type of guys who will usually end up chasing a woman, buying her gifts, hoping she goes for them. She usually doesn't and then they complain about how bad women are. Then you have the Black Knights, these are the exact opposite. Hate to point out a culture but the Middle East has a lot of these, misogynists mainly. These guys will treat a woman like absolute garbage, not care what happens to her, and be hated by all. They don't do that well in attracting women either really. Also such guys tend to be bitter and think all women are sl*ts.

Successful guys will be the ones inbetween, that is where the trick comes in. Hugh Hefner and Cristiano Ronaldo (two guys who score high quality a**) would be examples of the inbetweens, of course having a lot of money helps.

Eitherways I find that City Data and educated websites like Student Doctor are full of White Knights in the dating regard, Roosh V's site is full of Black Knights. Both are not going to have much success (would bank on the crowd at Student Doctor having more success though).

I read on his Blog Post that the guy was a 19 year old virgin (no biggie, Hugh Hefner was a virgin in his 20s), friendzoned throughout college, never had a girl in college or high school. Sadly enough, if I do not take action I can see myself being just like him in the future. Fortunately I still have time to change at my age (19). Thing is, even though I dislike his posts and won't help him ever on anything no matter the situation (even if he was starving) I see a resemblance:

1. Both him and I are children of newly arrived immigrants, hey, here in the deep south they wouldn't even differentiate between me and him
2. Both him and I are late age virgins
3. Both him and I have had the struggles of a strict family or lack of opportunities due to area

Problem is that I have now in a way seen my future if I don't get my sh*t together, that is who I am going to be like and it motivates me to work hard in school, get that good GPA, intern and get involved, and really get myself a good career that pays a decent salary.

[machiavelli]

I actually kind of like Day Bang, though. It's not as deep as Mark's stuff, but it has some good ideas about subtly dropping one's awesome qualities so it doesn't come off as bragging, in the course of really really indirect game...

[Alvar]

(03-15-2012 06:23 PM)FirstAidKit Wrote:  (Other advice/sex/dating things I follow advice from include are Captain Awkward and The Pervocracy

Nice links. Other than PM I only read Sinn's - mostly by inertia (it's on my feeds) and because he his a pretty decent guy.

Do you guys follow other blogs? What do you expect to get/learn from those?

[Matt T]

(03-15-2012 09:44 AM)Chaos Wrote:  That's not a fair comparison.

The real question is if you would rather have a nobel prize decently looking girl, cute but a little overweight or an ultra hot model, not stupid by any means, but not precisely bright neither.

The model. Duh...it's looks uber alles for dudes.

[IdEngager]

(03-15-2012 06:46 PM)Mark Wrote:  The only thing that bums me out about those guys is how many fucking readers they get. Both of them get probably four or five times the amount of readers I do. Granted, they've both been blogging for about twice as long, but still, it's prety disheartening to see such angry and misogynistic posts garner 200+ comments.

Controversy sells. Pretty much the same way pundits and trolls work. And why my posts get like 5 replies and Reesays gets 70, hahaha.

I used to occasional browse Roosh and Roissy but then I decided to stop reading things that only made me mad. I don't even really like reading Seddit these days! This is pretty much the only dating sorta-centric site I read these days, and it's moving slightly away from that. My internet blog surfing is almost solely consists of sports and music blogs, and then this.

With regards to the model vs the Nobel prize winner, from experience they tend to both be headcases, in different ways. Super educated chicks tend to be all "I'M SO GREAT, I'M SO SMART, WHY DON'T YOU LIKE ME???", while actress/model chicks are used to getting way too much attention, and either use it to toy with dudes or are scarred by it a different way completely. I like a girl who's a been humbled a bit, chill, but still decent looking. There really isn't a huge difference between a 7 and 9 in my book! I've seen girls who model or act now before they really got into it and some of them were pretty damn plain looking growing up!

I think it's sorta underrated for girls, it's always pointed out that guys can look a lot better just by working out and giving a shit, and that applies to an extent with girls too. Really a bigger factor for models/entertainment types is having the right frame/a unique look (for models) or some mediocum of talent (for your actresses/musicians) or putting in the right amount of "favors" in some cases. There's plenty of girls who look just fine but simply aren't cut out to model or get into entertainment... doesn't stop a ton of them from trying though.

[Mark]

Wow, I hadn't read Sinn's blog in ages. He's back in school? That's interesting.

Man, I remember back when I started blogging I thought his blog was the gold standard -- the writing, the discussions, the content, everything... I remember the first time he and I hung out and he told me how much traffic he got my jaw hit the floor. Now I get like 4x that traffic on a bad day.

Weird to see how much things change.

[TooFastForLove]

I always got the feeling from Sinn that he didn't really enjoy what he was doing even though he was good at it. Reading his blog years ago was probably the closest I ever got to the whole pickup scene.

[bwong]

If Sinn didnt bash the game and Neil Strauss so much I would probably read his blog a lot more. Not that I dont think the guy and his methods don't deserve bashing, but it just makes Sinn comes off as being angry, and negative which doesn't flow too well with me.

[Warped Mindless]

Roosh has some serious mental issues.

Other than PM, the only other PU/Seduction related blogs I read are Rob Judge's Blog, and Chase Amente's blog. Used to read Sleazys but his egotistic ramblings and over the top negativity turned me off.

[Matt C]

(03-15-2012 06:46 PM)Mark Wrote:  Ugh... Roosh. The guy gives decent pick up advice every once in a while, and I actually really enjoy his descriptions of countries and cultures (when he's not hating on the women). But the dude comes across as the most lonely, angry, bitter guy in the world. I've read his stuff on and off for a few years now, and never once have I ever seen him mention:

- A positive relationship with a girl that didn't involve sex.
- Qualities he loves and appreciates about women that doesn't involve sex or their physical appearance.
- Deep, long-lasting friendships or amazing experiences he's had with other people.

In the same way this forum gets a lot of RSD refugees, I've gotten a number of female Roosh/Roissy refugees like FirstAid, but usually they contact me through email. And usually they want assurance that not all men are like that and that there is hope, haha...

The only thing that bums me out about those guys is how many fucking readers they get. Both of them get probably four or five times the amount of readers I do. Granted, they've both been blogging for about twice as long, but still, it's prety disheartening to see such angry and misogynistic posts garner 200+ comments.

Mark, I see that your view of Roosh is colored with a one-sided perspective. I have been consistently following Roosh for a year now. Honestly, I am more of a lurker on his forum and blog, than someone who consistently posts. Regardless, I have seen him talk about qualities of women he likes outside of sex and physical appearance. He actually talks about it quite often (femininity/nurturing being the ones brought up most often). He has talked about friendships before and I have seen some of his posts talk about when he lived in D.C. and the experiences he and some of his buddies shared in D.C.

Also, I would see his posts as having a touch of reality in them. The only reason why it could come off so badly, is that he states in a no holds barred sort of way that comes of abrasively. At the very least Roosh is honest and straight forward, and he comes off in a what you see is what you get sort of way.

You on the other hand, can come off in a highfalutin sort of way. "You need to connect with your emotions". You remain convinced that your way is the only way to success, and you ignore the FACT that other people come from other places in life. This is why I stopped following you over a year ago from your switch to postmasculine. You became convinced that you "discovery" of connecting with you inner being and expressing yourself as a beautiful unique individual who is sensitive and wonderful was the path to success. I know I am mocking your approach to success. It is just that the way you speak about PUA's/Roosh assumes that you have somehow found the magic pill to success. Even when this flies in the face of the fact that there are men who come from all walks of life and that there is no way that your approach can serve all men.

Also, the reason why Roosh's and Roissy's blogs draw so many men is that there are A LOT of men in post 3rd wave feminist America that have had truly bad experiences with women. Personally, my mother has always been emotionally abusive. Over the years, I have built a level of anger towards women simmering under the surface that came from the repeated times where she would scream and yell at me and make direct emotional attacks on my psyche where my only response to remain silent and bottle up my anger over time. I will admit that this is a problem that I am working on. Especially since my father has brought it up to me, and I could see where my anger has had a negative impact on my life. Regardless, I simply cannot relate to your views on women, since the experiences I draw on life are almost entirely different than yours. If I remember correctly, you have said before that you had a wonderful and positive mother. When I see you talk about women, I see you as being too soft and unrealistic even when they may come from a place of truth.

Lastly, you are a hypocrite. For all you spout about empathy, you seem incapable of sparing an ounce of empathy for those who go to Roosh's/Roissy's blogs. Ignoring the experiences that their followers may have had that drew them there in the first place, and instead lambasting them for having "chauvinistic" views of women. Although, I will admit even though Roosh's blog is a bit darker than this one, Roissy's is too extreme for me to handle.

There's my 0.02$. Also, I know this is two months late, but I could not resist posting my response to this thread.

[Mark]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply Matt. I appreciate the honest criticism and perspective, I really do.

Here is my response:

1) I agree about men being hurt by women being drawn to Roosh and Roissy. From what I gather, Roosh had a bad/abusive relationship with his mother, and given your history it makes sense that you gravitate towards his worldview. Although, just because my mother was loving doesn't mean I didn't grow up with some of the same issues... I grew up a consummate nice guy, had little to no father figure, was treated like shit by my first couple girlfriends (cheated on, left, etc.). If you saw my writing from 2006 to 2008 (thankfully, most of it is deleted), it was very angry and misogynistic, and not dissimilar to Roosh's.

2) I also agree that Roosh is very real in his writing. In fact, I think the reason I have a strange fixation on reading him despite disagreeing with the way he sees women completely is the grittiness and honesty in his writing. I also see strange similarities between us despite our polar opposite perspectives on women. We both travel the world. We both have a fixation on sex and women. We both love Latin America and Eastern Europe and are disgusted by American culture. We both learn languages and are very well-read. We're both good writers who strive to be as real as possible.

Nobody knows this. But this article was actually partly inspired by him. I was trying to reconcile our similarities and differences in my mind and make sense of them: http://postmasculine.com/women-lovers-and-women-haters

Although I respect Roosh in a weird way and respect where he's coming from, to me, reading him it just seems like a really clear choice to make. You can have loving and healthy relationships with women, or you can have angry and dysfunctional relationships with women. It's not uncommon for girls I had one night stands with to message me on Facebook weeks or months later thanking me for the experience and tell me how much it meant to them. Whereas he recently wrote about an episode where he made a girl's vagina bleed, and as she cried and got up and left he said he didn't care.

So forgive me for sounding condescending when I say my approach is better than his. Sure, my approach to dating is not the only approach, but depending on the types of interactions you'd like to have, forgive me for believing mine is better than the alternative.

3) And finally, I'd like to note that the process you seem to be going through -- recognizing the abusive relationship you've had with your mother, how that's affected you, how that's affected your relationships towards women, and then trying to overcome it -- is more or less exactly what I espouse for men to do. So maybe you quit following my writing -- and I apologize for coming across as condescending -- but you seem to be following the advice to a certain extent.

[FirstAidKit]

I find Roosh kind of fascinating really. He's obviously a really smart guy who wants to improve aspects of himself so much, and I agree with some of his points on american culture, but I agree with Mark that he just seems like the most isolated person... I think that article on identity that was up recently really applies to him, his whole identity is bound up in getting women to sleep with him, most of his social interaction comes from his pickup forum, even his buddies in DC were primarily friends to go out and pick up women, he's posted before that he doesn't see the point in trying to befriend people. It's quite interesting in that a lot of that applied to Mark previously and could still apply to him now, but he's managed to expand into other circles...

I think the level of disdain and contempt for the women he sleeps with is pretty telling of his own mental state to be honest... it's that feeling of "I wouldn't want to be a part of any club who would have me as a member". You've got to think you're pretty awful that sleeping with you is inherently disrespectful to a woman.