This question was posed to me by a female reader a while back, and I think it’s an interesting one. Before I get into it, I want to side-step the whole question of monogamy for a minute and operate under the assumption that we’re talking about men who want to be monogamous and married. So the question is, would these men who have spent years on pick up and learning game be more likely or less likely to be good long-term partners?
The implication here is that a guy who spends an inordinate amount of time carousing singles lounges and having one night stands is going to be more easily tempted to wander when he’s tied down, or at least have less patience for working things through with his wife, since there’s always an easy alternative available.
My personal experience and what I’ve observed has been the opposite though. The more sexual experience I’ve gotten and the more I’ve gone out, the more unimpressed I’ve become towards casual sex and pursuing one-night-stands, and the healthier and more fulfilling my relationships have become. Granted, it took me quite a while to reach this point, but I’ve seen the same process play out in plenty of other men as well.
The fact that my standards for a woman that I’m willing to settle down with have become so high lead me to believe that I’d be less likely to stray when I did find that woman who I’d be willing to commit to for the long-haul. When a man has only been with two women in his life, it’s easy for him to question how valuable his connection with his wife is. But when he’s been with 100, he can rest assured that what he has in his relationship is truly special and unique, and therefore he’ll be LESS motivated to stray.
Now, that’s a nice sunshine and rainbows answer, and probably what most people reading this believe and wanted to hear. And although it’s true, I do think there’s a deeper, and slightly darker angle to this situation.
Promiscuous behavior has a strong correlation with low self-esteem. So do failing marriages and cheaters. As I’ve said for years, getting into pick up isn’t just about the girls, it’s a self help movement in disguise. People drawn to it are often drawn to it due to underlying emotional issues and traumas, and these same issues and traumas are very likely to cause relationship problems down the road if not resolved.
On top of that, behavior that is useful for picking up women is often counter-productive or damaging for maintaining relationships with them. For instance, an unwillingness to compromise your needs is a sexy and attractive trait when you’re dealing with a sassy girl in a bar. But when it’s your wife complaining about you ditching her for your friends for the fifth week in a row, then it’s not really that attractive anymore. Relationships take a totally separate toolbox to operate successfully. And although there’s plenty of crossover between the two, many of the tools for relationships are polar opposite of the ones we use to seduce.
So on the one hand, we have men becoming more experienced, more sexually satisfied and developing higher standards and appreciation for the women they do date. On the other hand, the same impulses that fuel the man’s desire to improve himself are often the same impulses that undo the relationship. On top of that, a lot of the specific behaviors he’s worked so hard on adopted can leave him ill-suited to maintain a healthy and happy relationship for the long-haul.
Ultimately, I think this is an impossible question to answer, as game affects each man differently. I would say that the men who utilize pick up as an avenue for self-development, emotional growth and increasing self-esteem, may even possibly set themselves up to be far BETTER husbands than they would have been otherwise. They will be better communicators, better listeners, more in touch with their emotions, more sexually satisfied, and more secure in their sexual experience.
Meanwhile, men who (ab)use game as an addiction for external validation, as another means of avoiding their emotional problems and traumas, they are likely going to be WORSE relationship material. Their underlying fear and pain of emotional commitment will remain unaddressed, and on top of that, they will have less patience, less of a willingness to make necessary sacrifices, and easier avenues for cheating.
So I’d say it comes down to the individual. We all use these tools for both healthy and unhealthy purposes at times. Some of us need more external validation than others. Some of us have more internal hurdles to overcome first. Some of us have healthier beliefs and prior experiences with women than others. Game itself is relatively benign in the long-run.
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I’ve been doing one night stand after one stand for a while now.
Not to say I don’t want a relationship. It just doesn’t happen. And I have this theory that I’ve now got sucked into this loop of one night stands, casual sex, lack of serious intentions/responsibilities with women, its meant that relationships become less and less realistic.
Maybe it will come in good time. But I feel like I have perhaps got sucked into a loop in the way I perceive/act with women.
Relationships need work and commitment. They need you to put up with things you wouldn’t usually put up with. You need to be willing to make sacrifices for that person. Hopping from girl to girl, casual fuck here, casual fuck there just completely flies in the face of that.
I wonder whether its a natural progression, and as I progress through my twenties things start to even out..I hope they do.
Because in my opinion, all one night stands help you at is one night stands. There is no depth. No real progression of anything. It just fills a carnal desire for base needs.
I personally think its a dangerous habit to get into in some ways..Maturity and opportunities for proper relationships is surely incompatible with promiscuous attitudes and patterns in the long run ?
Or perhaps most of the girls I do have one night stands with I don’t find attractive enough to date, and perhaps its really as simple as that..lol
You’re also assuming that a woman of high quality is going to want to marry someone with a huge notch count. Most marriageble women are going to be repulsed by it.
Disagree strongly. You’re making a lot of unproven assumptions in those statements.
I disagree with you, I’m a woman and will tell you that most if not all RESPECTABLE women would be disgusted. Promiscuity reflects what type of person you are, you assume that if a man did not experience with women will stray and men who have a lot of experience with women will not stray is simply wrong, statistics show that promiscuous men tend stray more often after all they are used to it. Traits of a respectable women is known you don’t have to sleep with a lot of women to finally understand that. You say you got tired of being promiscuous and that in your thinking led you to want to settle down, or maybe it could be that you are getting older, its natural as you get older you would want to live a more settled life. I assure you that women accept promiscuous men not because that’s what they want but the LACK of other options. I hope you encourage men to be more respectable instead of more promiscuous.
Have to agree with Mark on this. There may be a small subset who are completely turned off, but it’s not a major percentage. Women want a man who’s desired by many. It may make her slightly jealous or even insecure at times but rarely will it make them run the other way.
It’s all about how you present and handle it.
Also depends on the definition of “large”. If it’s around 50, I doubt they’ll care. If it’s 650, then they might be a little worried.
I think Mark you once mentioned that if a guy has over 100, then he may have some kind of issue he needs to deal with.
Whatever the number we’re talking about, if he seems messed up or something, then that is going to be what a ‘high quality woman’ will notice and be turned off by, rather than the actual count.
If he seems like a great guy, then I don’t the number in itself will be an issue.
It also depends on your definition of “high quality” and the fact that you can use such a term as though it applies to all men equally tells me a lot about where your issues are.
Exactly. In my book, a judgemental woman is not quite “high quality”.
Wait, back up. What do you mean “high quality” or “marriageble”?
Those are for each man to decide for himself. There is no class of women who are “better” than others, there is simply the question of what kind of girl do YOU want to marry? What makes YOU happy?
The way I always saw it when (if) I end up getting married I’ll be able to look the woman in the eyes and say I looked pretty hard for her and I’m damn sure this is something I want to do. That’s the point of this for me personally.
++ Maybe to have a little fun and gain valuable life lessons in the mean time….. It beat’s World of Warcraft. Maybe not Minecraft though.
Athol, i have never encountered such a volume of garbage in two short sentences in my life, on a topic that wasnt religion related.
Haven’t you ever heard the quote that a reformed rake makes the best husband?
I’ll prolly second Gully. Although sex comes in fairly easy with nice-enough girls for me these days, none of them have been the quality I’m aspiring. But I do wonder if should I start notch-counting those higher quality girls, will I really stop at one, or keep looking for higher.
Reminds me of a story of some millionaire who had a private learjet, but he was envious of his billionaire friend who had a 747.
It sounds like you guys are definitely in the process of getting external validation, although I’d say that as long as this is something you want to eventually break out of, then you’re fine. A lot of us need to go through a period of tons of ONS to validate ourselves as part of our process.
The next step for both of you would be to seek higher quality women — but not higher quality in looks (as that would lead to your learjet analogy), but higher quality in the quality of interaction — smarter, happier, more open, more interesting women. Women that you actually have a hard time not wanting to see again.
Gully is on two fronts: he’s gaming women in such a way that he only attracts shallow one night stands, and he’s also not attracted to the women he’s getting. Both are correct.
The answer is to up your game. Open up emotionally. Screen for more interesting women. Don’t seek the carnal success as much as let it be a side-effect of other connections.
Mark! so you’re saying that eventually we will have to settle down with an ugly bitch? kidding ;D It seems that we guys can’t find a 10 that’s very emotionally mature & high self-esteemed to deal with, we may have to go for a 6.5 in looks eventually but compensates a lot in personality, but it’s a numbers game, hope we all can find a 10 and highly matured at the same time-though unrealistic but possible.
Read this, this and this.
thanks mark, i hear ya
I’m wondering whether “game” just makes men more selective as a potential husband. Perhaps it just stops men from “settling” or putting up with excessive disrespect, when they have other options to choose from. Sure, that can be taken to excess – especially if they are dumping girls for small issues. Overall though, equalizing the power and giving men more say in a relationship, because they have options to go elsewhere if it sucks, is not a bad thing. We all know guys who are at the mercy of a girlfriend/wife because they think they “can’t do better”. It isn’t pretty…
Perhaps the trick for moving from “game” to “relationships” is finding new ways to apply the increased power that comes from choice. Learning how to use the leverage of being desirable to motivate and shape satisfying behavior in one woman over time – beyond simply getting short-term, sexual access. Plus, women need time to adjust to this type of power dynamic as well, especially if they are used to it being more lopsided in previous relationships. Women in relationships with men who have “choice” need to continue to work, invest, and be valuable – rather than just rely on the fact that he “can’t do better”. That is why they often feel it “ruins” men as husbands. In effect, it just “ruins” men as unequal and “whipped” husbands, which is unfortunately the standard and culturally-supported norm.
I can see how women might feel threatened by a man who has options. If the man knows he can go find a woman who will treat him well, then he is not willing to put up with dis-respect he is harder to control and manipulate. Therefore the kind of woman who likes to control and manipulate men would be repulsed by men who had a history of many partners. I think that makes sense, although I may just be letting me deep bitterness flavor my logic…
I’ve had somewhere between 60 and 80 sexual partners. Some of that is my ADD and the associated impulsiveness. I certainly never had to learn how to be a pick up artist, I was kind of a natural at it. As I get older I have grown to dislike hook ups too. I don’t share with my girlfriend my level of experience though. I don’t think people can relate to my numbers. As I get older now (32) I am pleased to say that my impulsiveness wanes and I feel more and more ready for a relationship that never ends. Like you said, I had a lot of low self esteem when I was younger, a result of my strange youth. And again like you said, now my standards are so high other women can’t touch the girls I date.
THe addiction to casual sex and to porn probably has a lot of similiarities. These sites have very interesting theories about that and about what maintains sexual attraction in LTR: yourbrainonporn.com and reuniting.info. YOu can also look up teh posts made by me (Wudang) at fastseduction.com about Karezza and tantra for some good explanations of the mechanims described in teh sites I linked to.
I belive LTR require a balance of alpha and beta traits to work and that most PUAs er on the side of too much alpha in LTR. THe blog marriedmansexlife.com takes exactly such an approach and the people who aply it get a lot of success with it.
I know the topic is men, but in an alternate view, I think my promiscuity in my sexual “youth” has had an interesting result.
It seems that men and women are justifiably generalized in this post so I’ll say that as a woman I was more of your stereotypical “man” in regards to casual sex. In the end, with a monogomous and happy relationship in my grasp I would say that it comes to a point for a woman where we feel empty and drained from the experience. We want a comfort to come home to, not a new or better dressed, or more pumped up version of the same thing over and over. Just commitment. I’ve never once for an instant felt I was settling. For men, keep in mind the woman doesn’t feel like she’s settling, you shouldn’t either, but the more women you sleep with. . .even if you don’t share it with her, the harder it is to transition to that level of unconditional love.
Fascinating article. I do think there is a point where promiscuity, or the reasons that drive it, do ruin men and women as potential spouses. Like the author and some commenters stated, promiscuity as a source of validation, is dangerous as this sort of person cannot be satisfied with the affections of one person for any length of time.
Furthermore, there are women who are turned off by promiscuous men. I am one such person. One suitor confided that he slept with a very high number of women. It was so high that even if divided by three, the number would still be a three digit number. I initially dismissed it as male bravado but that claim, in combination with some other behaviours, raised some red flags for me so I gently broke it off with him early. We did keep in touch and it became apparent that the man was not joking about his promiscuity. I think a lot of it is related to coming from a family of promiscuous men and unhappy women where such behaviour was normalized. He is progressively getting unhappier and unhappier but unfortunately, he doesn’t have enough introspection to figure out the cause of his unhappiness.
I don’t think it’s the behavior itself as much as the reasoning for why people engage in that behavior but I think you pretty much agree with that. that guy had quite the number… lol.
“The fact that my standards for a woman that I’m willing to settle down with have become so high lead me to believe that I’d be less likely to stray when I did find that woman who I’d be willing to commit to for the long-haul. ”
I agree with this for sure. I think it begs one question you didn’t touch on though: being promiscuous certainly improves your standards, but our “standards” are something we always set beyond our current capabilities. as we set them higher, we move continually into a smaller pool of women that can satisfy them, apparently making it near impossible for anyone who has success to settle down.
Maybe we don’t always set our standards beyond our grasp, but that has been my experience as I get better and better girls.
Either way, this post is excellent. I am more impressed every time I read your stuff.